Tokyo tangles..... (Full Version)

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RogerJNeilson -> Tokyo tangles..... (12/5/2019 8:47:55 AM)

April 1945. Ok a series of sweeps over Tokyo in one day. First one encounters 256 enemy fighters, a mix of Zeros, Tojos and Tonys. Some of these are JAAF, others are identified as coming from Akagi, Soryu, Shokaku, Unryu, Hiryu. As I run through the reports I see that the fighter strength is diminishing, and eventually I am opposed by only a few aircraft all from Soryu, Shokaku, Unryu. Last opposed sweep is only 3 Zeros.

My final six sweeps, all unopposed by Japanese aircraft all report ‘Carrier support unable to supply air cover..’

As none of my carriers are in the vicinity am I right is assuming some or all of the following?

1. That as he has no identified TFs in the location (very high detection level by my planes) then his CVs are at anchor and that he is operating from airfields as stationary CVs cannot operate air sorties?
2. That by the tail end of my sweeps he has run out of fighter defence?
3. A6M2 Zero dates from 1941, A6M5 dates from 1943, A6M5b &c dates from 1944, ki-44 Tojos are from 1942, Ki-61 Tonys are from 1944. So no ‘new’ fighters. Japan has been relying on oil from HI and Korea since early 1944 and now only from HI….. indicates that he is either hoarding new planes for a surprise, or he is scraping the barrel bit……

Views?

Roger



inqistor -> RE: Tokyo tangles..... (12/5/2019 11:35:56 AM)

1. If you see ‘Carrier support unable to supply air cover..’, planes operate from Carriers. Most probably KB is in nearby hex. But some groups my operate from land.

2. After battle, fighters have to refuel. With enough sweeps you can deplete CAP for current turn. But they are still there, and will be back next day. It is possible to remedy this somehow with low CAP % setting, so more planes will arrive later. But again - with enough sweeps you can get rid of CAP for current turn.

3. Depends of those TOJO/TONY models. Latest are from 1944. If there are old planes in pools, it is better to use them sooner, when they are not so obsolete, unless you want them to rot in pools forever. They make poor Kamikazes with their low payload.



Anachro -> RE: Tokyo tangles..... (12/5/2019 11:40:48 AM)

Could it be his CVs are at anchor in Tokyo's port and thus suffering from the in-port (50%?) penalty on CAP operations? This might be why you get that message. I'm just guessing here.



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Tokyo tangles..... (12/5/2019 1:06:06 PM)

Indeed checking the manual they can fly 50% of their planes in Port. I assume this is 50% of their individual unit strength not 50% of the total number of planes on the carrier......

Roger



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Tokyo tangles..... (12/5/2019 1:08:28 PM)

Indeed the manual says that 50% of the normal launch amount can be launched in a base hex.

Despite having the whole war so far to look back on this is actually the first major air to air action - I feel like a newbie.

Rpger



John 3rd -> RE: Tokyo tangles..... (12/5/2019 1:27:37 PM)

Cannot believe you are in 1945 and he is still flying Tojo and Tony! Never seen the message you speak about.



BBfanboy -> RE: Tokyo tangles..... (12/5/2019 1:29:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

Indeed checking the manual they can fly 50% of their planes in Port. I assume this is 50% of their individual unit strength not 50% of the total number of planes on the carrier......

Roger

But I think this means carriers in a TF, not disbanded in port (cold boilers, no movement, no launch).
Since you see no TFs at Tokyo, KB could be at Yokosuka with CAP range 1. For that matter it could be at Chiba or Utsonomia.

Some players stockpile their newer aircraft to defend industry against strat bombing. If that series of sweeps was your first attack on Honshu, he might decide now is the time to upgrade.



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Tokyo tangles..... (12/5/2019 1:34:08 PM)

Nope I also hit Yokohama - nothing there as regards TF - 17 ships reported in harbour. Tokyo has 5 ships reported in harbour. Maybe they have invented a cloaking mechanism....

Here is the message for one of the sweeps.....

000139 Morning Air attack 1945-04-06 Tokyo 114,60

Morning Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 28 NM, estimated altitude 33,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Allied aircraft
P-51D Mustang x 21

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
21 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 30000 feet

Carrier support unable to supply air cover..

Roger



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Tokyo tangles..... (12/5/2019 1:42:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

Indeed checking the manual they can fly 50% of their planes in Port. I assume this is 50% of their individual unit strength not 50% of the total number of planes on the carrier......

Roger

But I think this means carriers in a TF, not disbanded in port (cold boilers, no movement, no launch).
Since you see no TFs at Tokyo, KB could be at Yokosuka with CAP range 1. For that matter it could be at Chiba or Utsonomia.

Some players stockpile their newer aircraft to defend industry against strat bombing. If that series of sweeps was your first attack on Honshu, he might decide now is the time to upgrade.


Chiba is the only one I have not got decent detection levels on.... hmmmmm


Ok so I have had a pretty good look through the manual given this aspect is so new to me.... and I know there are manoeuvre bands and thanks to Tracker I can easily see them. But a very silly question )because all questions are silly if you don't know the answer). The graphic shows the planes that fought that move in the various sweeps, with their manoeuvre bands. But are the bands related to altitude (cannot see this information) and is a low or high number good?

Told you I am a newbie at this aspect.

Roger

[image]local://upfiles/41758/962984FBEF454D3D8B3AB670DA60B6C9.jpg[/image]



BBfanboy -> RE: Tokyo tangles..... (12/5/2019 1:43:00 PM)

What are the D/Ls on Tokyo and Yokohama?
I wonder if the carrier air cover message can happen if their air groups are operating from the land AF? If it does turn out that the air groups are on land, that could mean the carriers are in refit and ripe for a port strike.



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Tokyo tangles..... (12/5/2019 1:45:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

What are the D/Ls on Tokyo and Yokohama?
I wonder if the carrier air cover message can happen if their air groups are operating from the land AF? If it does turn out that the air groups are on land, that could mean the carriers are in refit and ripe for a port strike.

DL Tokyo reads 9/15 light rain
DL Yokohama reads 9/11 overcast

Roger



BBfanboy -> RE: Tokyo tangles..... (12/5/2019 1:48:27 PM)

Maneuver bands are altitude based and higher numbers are good. The thing to note is that some ratings drop off sharply while at fairly low levels while others decline more gradually, making them better high altitude planes.. In the early game, P-40s can be fairly good at levels below 15K but are vulnerable to the bounce from higher altitude fighters. Sometimes you have to rely on the ruggedness of US aircraft to survive the bounce in reasonable numbers to strike back at lower levels.



BBfanboy -> RE: Tokyo tangles..... (12/5/2019 1:49:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

What are the D/Ls on Tokyo and Yokohama?
I wonder if the carrier air cover message can happen if their air groups are operating from the land AF? If it does turn out that the air groups are on land, that could mean the carriers are in refit and ripe for a port strike.

DL Tokyo reads 9/15 light rain
DL Yokohama reads 9/11 overcast

Roger

Those are good D/L and should show TFs and disbanded ships in reasonably accurate detail.

EDIT: In one Downfall game I played the AI put practically all the surviving IJN at Niigata on the north coast. Close enough to LRCAP Tokyo.



rustysi -> RE: Tokyo tangles..... (12/5/2019 6:03:58 PM)

quote:

unless you want them to rot in pools forever.


Just a note if you are not aware. Under certain conditions obsolete aircraft will be 'recycled' into a small amount of HI.



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Tokyo tangles..... (12/5/2019 6:25:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Maneuver bands are altitude based and higher numbers are good. The thing to note is that some ratings drop off sharply while at fairly low levels while others decline more gradually, making them better high altitude planes.. In the early game, P-40s can be fairly good at levels below 15K but are vulnerable to the bounce from higher altitude fighters. Sometimes you have to rely on the ruggedness of US aircraft to survive the bounce in reasonable numbers to strike back at lower levels.

So looking at the graphic I posted every Japanese fighter has better performance than the Allied ones on every manoeuvre level?

Superiority comes therefore from durability, slightly higher ceiling and range?

Roger



rustysi -> RE: Tokyo tangles..... (12/5/2019 6:58:50 PM)

quote:

Superiority comes therefore from durability, slightly higher ceiling and range?


More or less, but add in speed under certain circumstances, as its not absolute. Speed ratio is dynamic at time of encounter. It the delta is large enough maneuverability becomes a non-factor. This is only comparing fighters. IIRC its not factored in for bombers.

Also for durability the firepower of your opponent makes a difference. B-17 are rarely shot down by Nate's (it did happen once in one of my games). Against Georges, Franks, and other late war fighters, more so.



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