Happy December 7th (Full Version)

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Lecivius -> Happy December 7th (12/7/2019 2:57:48 PM)

Lest we forget. I almost did, getting ready for the holidays. I found this. Most of the pictures have been seen, but there were a couple of new ones for me.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/29-iconic-images-of-the-attack-on-pearl-harbor/ss-BBXDBjX?li=BBnbfcL#image=1



Trugrit -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/7/2019 3:06:22 PM)


Thanks,

It is important to remember.



rockmedic109 -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/7/2019 3:32:42 PM)

I transported a lady last night who was in Honolulu on Dec 7. She was 9 yrs old and "I watched the bombs falling". It will not be long before we have no living memory of that day. The older I get, the sadder this makes me.



Canoerebel -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/7/2019 3:47:16 PM)

"Happy" December 7 seems inapt, ya know? But I know what you mean: Remember Pearl Harbor. Remember what happened there and all the ruin and suffering that ensued. Remember those whose lives would be cut short or forever worsened.

One of the contributors to my magazine is a beautiful, wonderful, remarkable 95-year-old poet named Emma C. She had a brother who was on the Tennessee at Pearl Harbor; another who was a paratrooper until an injury necessitated a transfer (he wound up in Patton's army); and her future husband was a pilot in the Philippines on December 7. He would be wounded. He wound up at an Army hospital in South Carolina, where he met a lovely young nurse who became his bride. She would be the first person in her family to go to college. They raised a family in SC. Then she worked as a librarian. Then she went into the Peace Corps. Her memories go deep. She is quite a lady.



dr.hal -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/7/2019 4:21:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
"Happy" December 7 seems inapt, ya know?


I agree, not the adjective I would have chosen. However the photos are certainly interesting and as was stated, a number of them I've never seen before....thanks for sharing.



Joe D. -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/7/2019 5:23:52 PM)

Japanese Communications Officer Changed the World Forever

"In the run-up to World War II, wireless telegraphy was the most effective and efficient way for far-away nations to communicate. This was certainly the case between the United States and Japan, who were talking via cable right up to the attack. On December 6, President Roosevelt sent a cable to his Japanese counterpart Emperor Shôwa in hopes of 'dispelling the dark clouds" by appealing to the two countries' long-standing peace and friendship. But Major Morio Tomura, an army officer stationed at the Tokyo's cable office, delayed the conciliatory cable arriving for the Imperial Palace by ten hours because he believed that war was Japan's destiny...."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/5-things-you-didnt-know-about-pearl-harbor/ar-BBQDe4A?ocid=spartandhp



joey -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/7/2019 6:56:40 PM)

Whatever happened to Major Morio Tomura?



Anachro -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/7/2019 6:59:44 PM)

Frankly, I'd take that story with a very large grain of salt. It could very well just be another concocted story to deflect war responsibility from the emperor and the imperial family.



AW1Steve -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/7/2019 8:22:13 PM)

I have only one question. Are you a JFB? That might explain the "happy" part. [:D]



Joe D. -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/7/2019 8:53:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

Whatever happened to Major Morio Tomura?

quote:

Major Morio Tomura


I found a Lt. Col. Morio Tomaro pictured in the Throne Room of the Government House, Rangoon, for surrender negotiations in 1945.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205208279



ushakov -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/7/2019 9:25:07 PM)

Reading through some newspaper archives of the archive of the attack, and came across this. Looks like we need a game update to correct the Japanese OOB?

[image]https://i.imgur.com/vvHSSmF.png[/image]



rockmedic109 -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/7/2019 9:38:53 PM)

Fake news?



fcooke -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/7/2019 10:06:38 PM)

My wife bombed me this am, and pm. that is marriage. the guys at PH got much more explosive rounds. I have never understood why the Japanese took the 'sneak attack route' In general a very 'honorable' culture. Any good books on this one? I know Tojo was a problem.

May the folks who were taken on Dec Dec 7 RIP.



spence -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/7/2019 11:21:56 PM)

quote:

I found a Lt. Col. Morio Tomaro pictured in the Throne Room of the Government House, Rangoon, for surrender negotiations in 1945.


Considering that there was a (losing) war on it would seem that he wasn't exactly "the sharpest tool in the shed" since he never made anything more than "telephone colonel".



BBfanboy -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/8/2019 4:57:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

My wife bombed me this am, and pm. that is marriage. the guys at PH got much more explosive rounds. I have never understood why the Japanese took the 'sneak attack route' In general a very 'honorable' culture. Any good books on this one? I know Tojo was a problem.

May the folks who were taken on Dec Dec 7 RIP.

The Japanese opened the Russo-Japanese war with a surprise torpedo attack at Port Arthur. Achieving surprise is a time-honoured military strategy for the weaker side to try and even the odds. Japanese honour was supposed to be preserved by their ambassador handing over the declaration of war in Washington only seconds before the attack began. Both IJN and IJA considered it honorable to attack an unprepared foe - the disadvantage was the fault of the victim who should have known to be on guard.



fcooke -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/8/2019 10:24:00 AM)

I remember the 'late' declaration of war. What I cannot remember is why it was late. I think by around an hour?



dr.hal -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/8/2019 1:33:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

I remember the 'late' declaration of war. What I cannot remember is why it was late. I think by around an hour?

According to many sources including the Japanese Ambassador, they had difficulty translating the message into English, and they didn't completely understand that absolute deadline of getting the message to Secretary Hull. The Japanese Ambassador was never in the loop about the impending attack let alone the timing of the attack. Thus he was not overly concerned about missing the time by about 50 minutes. The movie Tora Tora Tora depicts this rather well....



dr.hal -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/8/2019 1:39:24 PM)

quote:


ORIGINAL: fcooke
'sneak attack route'

There is a huge psychological difference between a "surprise attack" and a "sneak attack" and Yamamoto knew this. He knew it was a disaster to hit Pearl BEFORE the massage was delivered in Washington... And it was.



Anachro -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/8/2019 1:43:15 PM)

Let's not ascribe genius where it wasn't. The difference of a few seconds or even an hour between delivery of said message and attack would not change the perception of Pearl Harbor as the underhanded surprise attack it was. If Yamamoto expected it to, than he'd be really mistaken. It'd be a large strategic mistake either way that galvanizes the US population into total war.



witpqs -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/8/2019 1:51:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

I remember the 'late' declaration of war. What I cannot remember is why it was late. I think by around an hour?

According to many sources including the Japanese Ambassador, they had difficulty translating the message into English, and they didn't completely understand that absolute deadline of getting the message to Secretary Hull. The Japanese Ambassador was never in the loop about the impending attack let alone the timing of the attack. Thus he was not overly concerned about missing the time by about 50 minutes. The movie Tora Tora Tora depicts this rather well....

Further, they had been directed in advance that owing to security only their own staff were allowed to work on the message. I'm not sure how much difficulty they had in translating anything required, but none of their own staff were competent typists. Correctly typing that lengthy document on time, after waiting for decoding/translation, proved impossible.



witpqs -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/8/2019 1:53:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Let's not ascribe genius where it wasn't. The difference of a few seconds or even an hour between delivery of said message and attack would not change the perception of Pearl Harbor as the underhanded surprise attack it was. If Yamamoto expected it to, than he'd be really mistaken. It'd be a large strategic mistake either way that galvanizes the US population into total war.

A significant cultural difference which the Imperial leadership did not understand.



dr.hal -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/8/2019 2:03:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro
Let's not ascribe genius where it wasn't. The difference of a few seconds or even an hour between delivery of said message and attack would not change the perception of Pearl Harbor as the underhanded surprise attack it was. If Yamamoto expected it to, than he'd be really mistaken. It'd be a large strategic mistake either way that galvanizes the US population into total war.

I'm not ascribing anything. I don't claim that if the message was delivered on time that the US wouldn't have declared war on 8 December. But the "fact" is there is a difference between a surprise and a sneak attack in the minds of many on both sides. This is as true today as it was on the 7th of December 1941.



dr.hal -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/8/2019 2:07:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
A significant cultural difference which the Imperial leadership did not understand.

Too true, but not all in Japan were ignorant or thought it wise to ignore this difference. Yamamoto is a good example of this (and yes he did live and work in the USA so had "insider" advantage).



witpqs -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/8/2019 2:16:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
A significant cultural difference which the Imperial leadership did not understand.

Too true, but not all in Japan were ignorant or thought it wise to ignore this difference. Yamamoto is a good example of this (and yes he did live and work in the USA so had "insider" advantage).

I was not implying that lack of understanding was an excuse. Certainly in Yamammoto's case he knew (and he is the one who commissioned and pushed the Pearl Harbor plan), I can only imagine he thought it the only viable possibility.



Lecivius -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/8/2019 2:49:33 PM)

"Happy" was a simple reference. I didn't mean to offend. Simple point was in making sure the date did not pass unnoticed [;)]



spence -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/8/2019 3:07:17 PM)

quote:

I remember the 'late' declaration of war. What I cannot remember is why it was late. I think by around an hour?


Alan Zimm in his book "Attack on Pearl Harbor: Strategy, Combat, Myths, Deceptions" states that the "famous 14 part message" WAS NOT A DECLARATION OF WAR. It broke off the negotiations of the special envoy Nomura but did not directly state that a state of war exists, break diplomatic relations nor even recall the Japanese Ambassador. He quotes the last few paragraphs of that message in which one would expect to find such a declaration.

I would consider the follow-on message about destroying coding machines and ciphers to be much clearer evidence that the Japanese planned imminently to start a war.



dr.hal -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/8/2019 3:07:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius
"Happy" was a simple reference. I didn't mean to offend. Simple point was in making sure the date did not pass unnoticed [;)]

Oh Lecivius, no offense taken on my part for sure, some of us just like to nitpick. You undoubtedly meant no harm at all so no need to apologize. I doubt that the date will be forgotten anytime soon... indeed for a century or two.... or longer. We still remember Concord and Lexington! Hell I still remember the date of my birth (which predates all of this!!!).



John 3rd -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/8/2019 3:08:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I have only one question. Are you a JFB? That might explain the "happy" part. [:D]


GOOD point! I am--without doubt a JFB--REMEMBER Pearl Harbor![:'(]



jhyden -> RE: Happy December 7th (12/8/2019 3:38:49 PM)

Thanks for the post Joe D.



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