Massive German deployment to Galicia (Full Version)

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Peter Hugo -> Massive German deployment to Galicia (12/16/2019 1:41:11 AM)

Playing the first scenario as Allies for second time in a row, and the same thing keeps happening. My Russians advance and take the oil wells by end of turn two, and get ready to assault Lemberg next turn, but on CP turn three I see nine (9) German corps show up to help the A-H corps block my advance into Galicia, and now I'm on the defensive on my third turn! In addition, the German land unit count went from 57 to 75 in the same turn! Some of the increase is due to regular mobilization of German corps, but does the taking of the oil fields trigger an additional free German unit pop up and massive redeployment to Galicia? If this is the standard reaction by the AI, then it both retards the German advance in France and prematurely stymies the Russian advance in Galicia. Very unhistorical game play that takes away much of the early fun that comes with playing the Russians in 1914.



darth254 -> RE: Massive German deployment to Galicia (12/16/2019 1:58:16 AM)

I am seeing similar behavior from the AI in my games while playing Russia. you don't have much time to tee-off on a lightly guarded East Prussia, Silesia, or Galicia before German troops coming pouring in. I would guess they're redeploying a lot of them and leaving a much thinner force in the West. If you're also controlling France, you can probably punish them severely for doing this but if you set France to AI....who knows.



Hubert Cater -> RE: Massive German deployment to Galicia (12/17/2019 1:02:34 PM)

Hi Peter,

Have you tried playing as the Entente, starting with a new campaign, with the latest update? I just ask as there were some adjustments made to lower the amount of German transfers to the East.

Generally speaking the AI will attempt to balance the threats on various fronts on its own, but I've reduced it a little bit for this part of the war under the v1.00.02 update.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

EDIT: Wrong version number, should have written v1.00.02



MarechalJoffre -> RE: Massive German deployment to Galicia (12/17/2019 2:16:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Hi Peter,

Have you tried playing as the Entente, starting with a new campaign, with the latest update? I just ask as there were some adjustments made to lower the amount of German transfers to the East.

Generally speaking the AI will attempt to balance the threats on various fronts on its own, but I've reduced it a little bit for this part of the war under the v1.00.03 update.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

I've just finished another campaign as the Entente, this time with 1.00.03. I'm still seeing considerable German redeployment from the West if Russia makes a strong push in Galicia and/or East Prussia.

Germans in the West can't get past Brussels after this redeployment. And although German reinforcements usually blunt my offensive in East Prussia, I am still able to make considerable headway into Galicia.



Hubert Cater -> RE: Massive German deployment to Galicia (12/17/2019 2:28:57 PM)

Under the latest version, if it is East Prussia, this is likely not a redeployment from the West but rather a few extra units that the AI receives as helpers depending upon how far the Russians have advanced.

In Galicia, this is where I significantly reduced the west to east transfer and it could then explain why you are still able to make considerable headway into Galicia versus the earlier versions.




Peter Hugo -> RE: Massive German deployment to Galicia (12/18/2019 2:00:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Under the latest version, if it is East Prussia, this is likely not a redeployment from the West but rather a few extra units that the AI receives as helpers depending upon how far the Russians have advanced.

In Galicia, this is where I significantly reduced the west to east transfer and it could then explain why you are still able to make considerable headway into Galicia versus the earlier versions.




Hubert,
I am playing upgrade .02 as Entente and same thing, massive German deployment to Galicia on CP turn Aug 29th, but instead of the 9 corps I saw before the upgrade, I now see 13 at beginning of Entente turn Sept 5th (see pic). This significantly reduces any prospects of having about 4-5 turns of fun playing as the Russian and beating up on A-H. Also, Belgium is still holding on with 2 corps and 2 detachments, and the Germans are barely in N. France. Not what I'd expect to see on the third CP turn. Maybe in October, but not end of August. Basically, the CP player is giving up winning in the West to save Galicia, even when A-H still has plenty of space to trade for time in the West.

Peter


[image]local://upfiles/53623/C76E1AC53CE241E49B3FB368B4AF0009.jpg[/image]



Jestre -> RE: Massive German deployment to Galicia (12/18/2019 2:19:08 AM)

Sounds like a brilliant move by the CP AI!!! Much greater opportunity to crush Russia early in the war than France.



Peter Hugo -> RE: Massive German deployment to Galicia (12/18/2019 2:35:57 AM)

Would only make sense if playing Ost Aufmarsch scenario, where Germany doesn't declare war on Belgium, and concentrates on wiping out Russian forces in Poland. But in the default scenario based on the Schlieffen Plan, as the Entente player I should feel the full brunt of the German attack on Belgium and France. As it is, the balloon deflates on CP turn three (Aug 29, 1914); hardly the experience expected for the default scenario.



Hubert Cater -> RE: Massive German deployment to Galicia (12/18/2019 3:09:45 AM)

Thanks for the screenshot as this is helpful in helping me to better understand the overall situation on the Galician front. For example, in the initial release build, you didn't even have to go in as strongly with the Russians for the CP AI to react quite heavily in return. This part has been as mentioned reduced for the AI, i.e. a regular incursion will most likely keep most German units on the Western Front.

However, in your example, it indicates to me a fairly heavy attack by Russian forces in Galicia right at the time where the CP has excess offensive capability in Belgium and France as the French side is not quite built up yet (only a few turns in), and especially so in northern France. As a result, the timing here has the AI react to the aggressive offensive in Galicia, because it feels safe to do so, with the end result being a possibly less effective Schlieffen Plan as you've noticed.

Generally, the AI dynamically handles the threats throughout the map, and reacts accordingly. If you were to, for example, not as heavily threaten the Galician front as the Russians, it would play out differently and the AI would more or less remain committed to its Schlieffen plan. If the heavy Russian incursion into Galicia were to happen two or three turns later, and when the French side has built up a bit more in northern France, the CP AI would also then have less spare units to send to Galicia in this case as well and remain more committed to the Schlieffen plan due to the potential counter threats from the French side at that point.

Essentially the AI tries to make "good choices" with its reactions to the dynamic flow of the game. When the flow is more or less historical from the Entente side, so too will the reaction be by the AI and vice versa. If the game play diverts from the historical, the AI will do its best to react accordingly and in the end it may mean that it too diverts from the historical in order to do what it thinks it must to survive.



Rosseau -> RE: Massive German deployment to Galicia (12/18/2019 3:31:36 AM)

Not to belittle Peter's concerns, but I have been playing SC3 War in Europe pretty heavily (SC3 WaW and WWI bought and waiting), and I have found the AI to "wait patiently" until you strip your front a little, and then wham! This is set on Veteran difficulty, so the AI gets to see a couple of hexes in.

Nevertheless, I love this behavior, and I don't play online, and appreciate the challenge. I also have to say the AI has come a long way from even SC2 levels.

Now, back on topic...



Peter Hugo -> RE: Massive German deployment to Galicia (12/18/2019 9:30:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater


Essentially the AI tries to make "good choices" with its reactions to the dynamic flow of the game. When the flow is more or less historical from the Entente side, so too will the reaction be by the AI and vice versa. If the game play diverts from the historical, the AI will do its best to react accordingly and in the end it may mean that it too diverts from the historical in order to do what it thinks it must to survive.


I'm playing a modified veteran level (no spotting, 0.5 experience, 10% MPPs), so perhaps as I ratchet up the settings for the AI in future games, maybe I'll see something more challenging in the West for the first 4-5 turns. On another note, you implied that the Russian advance in the above picture diverted from the historical course, which caused the CP to do likewise, but I don't see anything unhistorical with the Russian advance since Lemberg fell on Sept 3rd, but A-H still holds it on the Sept 5th turn. As you know, the German strategy was to crush France first while A-H did its best to divert the expected Russian offensive against the CP, and the Russian strategy was to unhinge the German attack on France. So historically speaking, the Russians are where they need to be in the picture, not the Germans, which was somewhat disappointing given that this scenario is the France first strategy. Historically speaking, the only redeployment to Galicia was the A-H 2nd Army from the Serbian Front, and although the Russians eventually overran most of the province, the front stabilized along the Carpathians until the Germans came to A-H's aid by invading Russian Poland from Silesia AFTER they failed to defeat France in late September. Anyway, is it possible to make the AI commit most German units to the advance in the West for several more turns regardless of what's happening in the East? A-H should be able to handle the Russians for a while longer on their own without gravely impairing their empire as happened.

Appreciate your feedback and will continue the fight...lol!



Hubert Cater -> RE: Massive German deployment to Galicia (12/19/2019 1:14:33 AM)

Thanks Peter and to clarify the mechanics of the default AI behaviour, it is not necessarily the depth of the advance that will cause the AI to react as heavily as it did, rather the difference between the number of Russian units relative to the remaining AH defenders in the area.

I could be wrong but it looked like you put more Russian units into the Galician front versus the default and this was my reference to it possibly being a-historical. If I got that part wrong I apologize, but nonetheless it is as mentioned part of the default AI dynamic reactions to strengths and weaknesses on the fronts. Essentially the AI doesn't view the map the same way we do, it just sees numbers, and it sees that area is under threat while it has offensive capability to spare somewhere else on the map, so it transfers a weighted amount in an attempt to re-balance both fronts.

It's not wrong to suggest that the AI let the Galician front slide for a bit and try and take it back later, it's just a matter of having the AI listen and do something it doesn't by default want to do, which is not always easy to get right, e.g. change something here, break something somewhere else etc.

But I'll see what I can do [:)]



Hubert Cater -> RE: Massive German deployment to Galicia (12/19/2019 3:32:03 PM)

Just a quick update for the next build that I've made a few adjustments to this again and I think it will be a lot closer now to what you are after on all fronts and for most situations.



Peter Hugo -> RE: Massive German deployment to Galicia (12/20/2019 3:36:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Thanks Peter and to clarify the mechanics of the default AI behaviour, it is not necessarily the depth of the advance that will cause the AI to react as heavily as it did, rather the difference between the number of Russian units relative to the remaining AH defenders in the area.

I could be wrong but it looked like you put more Russian units into the Galician front versus the default and this was my reference to it possibly being a-historical. If I got that part wrong I apologize, but nonetheless it is as mentioned part of the default AI dynamic reactions to strengths and weaknesses on the fronts. Essentially the AI doesn't view the map the same way we do, it just sees numbers, and it sees that area is under threat while it has offensive capability to spare somewhere else on the map, so it transfers a weighted amount in an attempt to re-balance both fronts.

It's not wrong to suggest that the AI let the Galician front slide for a bit and try and take it back later, it's just a matter of having the AI listen and do something it doesn't by default want to do, which is not always easy to get right, e.g. change something here, break something somewhere else etc.

But I'll see what I can do [:)]


Thanks Hubert, now understand what your historical reference was about, and really appreciate your follow-up regarding adjustments to the next build!



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