CV packing (Full Version)

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geofflambert -> CV packing (12/26/2019 7:30:20 PM)

We have a lot of new players and I haven't seen this covered in a while so I thought I'd bring it up. First, Allied players, do not put the first model of Corsairs on one of your carriers. They are not carrier capable and will turn your carrier into a floating parking lot.

Second, you can actually fit 115% of capacity on your carrier and still operate, but that is the absolute tippy top maximum. Figure it out like you would a 15% tip at a restaurant (cheapskates!). Let's say you have a CVL with a capacity of 27 planes. Take 10% of that (2.7), add 5% (1.3, do not round that up) to the capacity. You can safely operate 31 planes on that carrier.

Third, you must count reserve aircraft into that number, and the carrier capacity used field may not show that, so do it in your head and don't trust what the computer says, if you have any reserves on board. The reason for this is that even though the game engine is happy (for now) and your carrier will operate just fine, if any aircraft get damaged or go into maintenance some of those reserves may become active and if the number of active planes plus damaged/in maintenance planes exceeds your capacity your whole carrier will shut down. Once reserve planes become active the engine will not put planes back in reserve and you cannot do it manually either.

Fourth, some will counsel that you leave some room on your carriers to account for lost capacity due to sunk friendly (or on fire and inoperable) carriers so your returning from mission aircraft have a flat top to land on. In my view that's all a crapshoot and don't do it. If you get into a carrier battle you are going to lose some planes and probably a lot of planes anyway. If at worst part of each returning squadron is able to land you won't have lost the entire squadron and will have a cadre to rebuild from. There are two other ways to play it safe on this: keep a couple of empty CVEs at a safe distance back (but in range) for those orphans to land on, or, and better still, keep your carrier battles within range of friendly airbases. You can lose battles in at least two ways: get out in front of your land based search planes (so the enemy sees you first) or too far away from air base support.



Zorch -> RE: CV packing (12/26/2019 7:43:51 PM)

I thought this was about loading your Curriculum Vitae with buzzwords! [X(]



geofflambert -> RE: CV packing (12/26/2019 7:46:55 PM)

Another thing. Turn replacements off on all squadrons aboard. I once had something bad happen. The Americans have the option of having replacement squadrons at nearby land bases, that will send replacement planes with pilots to a carrier at sea. The Japanese can't do that. So I was unaware of that and it happened to me. Somehow a training squadron I had nearby was flagged to be a replacement squadron and sent unwanted planes with untrained crews in the middle of a fight. Also, I frequently put understrength squadrons on carriers instead of using reserves to fill up carriers, so I always, if it can be arranged have understrength squadrons around for this purpose with replacements turned off so that I can fit them aboard a carrier and then if capacity allows, order replacements one at a time til I have what I want.



geofflambert -> RE: CV packing (12/26/2019 7:52:35 PM)

Sometimes squadron sizing works like this: I have a carrier that carries 18 torpedoes. It makes sense to me to then have a squadron of 9 torpedo bombers and fill the rest of the bomber capacity with dive bombers. The TBs will potentially get two torpedo runs and then switch to bombs.



HansBolter -> RE: CV packing (12/26/2019 8:44:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

I thought this was about loading your Curriculum Vitae with buzzwords! [X(]



Speak English please.


p.s.

I most certainly would never have known what a "Curriculum Vitae" was if I hadn't learned it from Joel and Lia on youtube recently. On the west side of the pond it's called a Resume.



HansBolter -> RE: CV packing (12/26/2019 8:50:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Another thing. Turn replacements off on all squadrons aboard. I once had something bad happen. The Americans have the option of having replacement squadrons at nearby land bases, that will send replacement planes with pilots to a carrier at sea. The Japanese can't do that. So I was unaware of that and it happened to me. Somehow a training squadron I had nearby was flagged to be a replacement squadron and sent unwanted planes with untrained crews in the middle of a fight. Also, I frequently put understrength squadrons on carriers instead of using reserves to fill up carriers, so I always, if it can be arranged have understrength squadrons around for this purpose with replacements turned off so that I can fit them aboard a carrier and then if capacity allows, order replacements one at a time til I have what I want.



They actually have the OPTION of leaving those clearly labeled Replenishment squadrons on the carriers they enter on and using those Replenishment Carriers in the manner they were intended.

Only when you mess with things do you get unintended results like you did.



Encircled -> RE: CV packing (12/26/2019 8:59:39 PM)

Good blue sky thinking there

We need a lot more thinking outside the box with this kind of game.



btd64 -> RE: CV packing (12/26/2019 9:23:25 PM)

And the Gorn hits it out of the park. Good stuff....GP



ITAKLinus -> RE: CV packing (12/26/2019 9:47:50 PM)

As far as I remember additional (reserve) planes aren't counted fully. I might be wrong because I never go above ~105-110% as a precautionary measure.
Also, as Japanese you have the possibility to load those nice recon judy and I tend to rotate them on various CVs, always needing few spare slots



BBfanboy -> RE: CV packing (12/26/2019 9:51:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

And the Gorn hits it out of the park. Good stuff....GP

+2
Good advice from the school of hard knocks (from rocks fired by a bamboo cannon using home-made gunpowder!)

I would add that going over the stated aircraft capacity on the CV has the unfortunate effect of overloading the repair mechanics so you end up with a lot of high fatigue aircraft and aircraft in maintenance of inordinate amounts of time. In the former situation, the high fatigue aircraft are more likely to become Ops losses along with their pilots. In the latter situation, you cannot conduct a sustained carrier offensive because too many aircraft are unserviceable.
You also get a lot of stragglers if you try and launch a full strike from an overloaded carrier. IME, these stragglers are more likely to be shot down with their pilots than score any late-strike hits.



geofflambert -> RE: CV packing (12/26/2019 9:59:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

As far as I remember additional (reserve) planes aren't counted fully. I might be wrong because I never go above ~105-110% as a precautionary measure.
Also, as Japanese you have the possibility to load those nice recon judy and I tend to rotate them on various CVs, always needing few spare slots

That was the point. They aren't counted (until they are).



geofflambert -> RE: CV packing (12/26/2019 10:01:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

And the Gorn hits it out of the park. Good stuff....GP

+2
Good advice from the school of hard knocks (from rocks fired by a bamboo cannon using home-made gunpowder!)

I would add that going over the stated aircraft capacity on the CV has the unfortunate effect of overloading the repair mechanics so you end up with a lot of high fatigue aircraft and aircraft in maintenance of inordinate amounts of time. In the former situation, the high fatigue aircraft are more likely to become Ops losses along with their pilots. In the latter situation, you cannot conduct a sustained carrier offensive because too many aircraft are unserviceable.
You also get a lot of stragglers if you try and launch a full strike from an overloaded carrier. IME, these stragglers are more likely to be shot down with their pilots than score any late-strike hits.

Those "rocks" were diamonds, an important point. Must've been the only planet where you could find refined sulphur just lying around.



BBfanboy -> RE: CV packing (12/26/2019 10:03:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

As far as I remember additional (reserve) planes aren't counted fully. I might be wrong because I never go above ~105-110% as a precautionary measure.
Also, as Japanese you have the possibility to load those nice recon judy and I tend to rotate them on various CVs, always needing few spare slots

That was the point. They aren't counted (until they are).

I wasn't considering the reserve ones, but overloading by bringing on extra squadrons (up to 5 total) that raise your active aircraft count over official capacity but still below 116%. For a one-day battle this may be doable, but over several days the maintenance issue makes it not worth doing.



Zorch -> RE: CV packing (12/27/2019 12:12:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

And the Gorn hits it out of the park. Good stuff....GP

+2
Good advice from the school of hard knocks (from rocks fired by a bamboo cannon using home-made gunpowder!)
...


Those "rocks" were diamonds, an important point. Must've been the only planet where you could find refined sulphur just lying around.

Diamonds, the only natural substance harder than a Gorn's skull (and only slightly less intelligent).

[image]local://upfiles/34241/901546A61C454006B84C3C74AF614446.jpg[/image]



fcooke -> RE: CV packing (12/27/2019 10:44:32 AM)

One of the great many benefits of having lived on both sides of the pond is that you pick up on some of the differences in the 'same' language. CV is the same as resume. elevators are lifts. hoods are bonnets. cigarettes are fags (I kid you not). And so on. I find myself substituting words depending on what geography I am in. And then you have the subtle spelling differences between US and UK, which tends to drive spell checkers nuts - and then the not so subtle ones - jail is gaol.

And I took a bunch of Latin in high school - not a language guy so that almost flunked me out,as did French. But I can now read stained glass windows in churches and cathedrals, for what that is worth. Curriculum Vitae is Latin.

Early morning musings.



basilstaghare -> RE: CV packing (12/27/2019 12:16:51 PM)

Sort of related: I was watching a youtube vid and there was a discussion between two veteran players on early war US Carrier stacking....ie., is it bad to put all 3 of your CV's into one TF at campaign start? Thanks.



Anachro -> RE: CV packing (12/27/2019 12:36:49 PM)

No, 3 USN CVs in one TF is perfectly fine. The penalties of overstacking and having too many A/C per TF aren't too severe.



Ian R -> RE: CV packing (12/27/2019 12:52:43 PM)

On the other hand, if the KB comes by and puts strikes in contact, all your carriers are at risk in one TF. Keeping them in separate TFs can pay dividends, as one might escape attack.



dr.hal -> RE: CV packing (12/27/2019 1:52:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

No, 3 USN CVs in one TF is perfectly fine.

I wouldn't say "perfectly fine" as there are penalties (in coordination especially) in the early part of the war. Although one might consider the penalties slight, they could make the difference in an attack's effectiveness. Just a thought!



BBfanboy -> RE: CV packing (12/27/2019 7:40:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

On the other hand, if the KB comes by and puts strikes in contact, all your carriers are at risk in one TF. Keeping them in separate TFs can pay dividends, as one might escape attack.

According to Alfred (IIRC), an air strike can attack ships in all the TFs in a hex, so it makes no real difference to split your CVs into various TFs and keep them in the same hex. In a larger TF you might get better AAA support (depending on AAA range and enemy altitude during approach and departure.)



geofflambert -> RE: CV packing (12/27/2019 8:30:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

One of the great many benefits of having lived on both sides of the pond is that you pick up on some of the differences in the 'same' language. CV is the same as resume. elevators are lifts. hoods are bonnets. cigarettes are fags (I kid you not). And so on. I find myself substituting words depending on what geography I am in. And then you have the subtle spelling differences between US and UK, which tends to drive spell checkers nuts - and then the not so subtle ones - jail is gaol.

And I took a bunch of Latin in high school - not a language guy so that almost flunked me out,as did French. But I can now read stained glass windows in churches and cathedrals, for what that is worth. Curriculum Vitae is Latin.

Early morning musings.


Over here it's supposed to be Jeff. My egglayer wanted to be different.



geofflambert -> RE: CV packing (12/27/2019 8:35:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

On the other hand, if the KB comes by and puts strikes in contact, all your carriers are at risk in one TF. Keeping them in separate TFs can pay dividends, as one might escape attack.

According to Alfred (IIRC), an air strike can attack ships in all the TFs in a hex, so it makes no real difference to split your CVs into various TFs and keep them in the same hex. In a larger TF you might get better AAA support (depending on AAA range and enemy altitude during approach and departure.)


I've seen too many times when one TF is attacked repeatedly (both sides) leaving the others alone to stop me from breaking them up into the smallest groups possible. If you're American (so differences in speed are not a problem my ideal is: CV CV CVL CA CA CL DD DD DD DD DD DD with more DDs if you have 'em.



dasboot1960 -> RE: CV packing (12/27/2019 11:21:35 PM)

BBFB isn't the point then if you split up into different TFs the attack will only go in against one?



Anachro -> RE: CV packing (12/27/2019 11:24:46 PM)

I agree with BB and Alfred. I have had CV strikes hit ships from multiple TFs in one hex during carrier battles. However, regarding the above, I tend to operate in 15 ship TFs and like to have at least decent escorts for ASW and AA, so as the Allies my carriers are usually split up.



dasboot1960 -> RE: CV packing (12/27/2019 11:49:00 PM)

I stand to learn here



BBfanboy -> RE: CV packing (12/28/2019 2:02:53 AM)

Air strikes against multiple TFs in the same hex will tend to go after the most valuable ships first - CVs& CVLs, loaded APs or xAPs, CVEs, then BBs. Some of the choice depends on under-the-hood weather rolls during the combat resolution and some may depend on the qualities of the air squadron commanders or D/L on the various TFs.

I am not saying Geoff/Jeff is wrong, but it is possible to get multiple TF targeting. If he is splitting up his CVs among various TFs, the slowest ones are often the first target. Kaga is almost always the first KB CV on the menu.



Alfred -> RE: CV packing (12/28/2019 3:50:15 AM)

Together with the ship class priority order, individual ship detection levels is very important for the auto targeting routines.

1.  In AE, having multiple TFs in the same hex does not mean the enemy aircraft will target only one TF and leave all the others untouched.

2.  Ceteris paribus, a large TF is more likely to have a higher detection level than a small TF.

3.  Ceteris paribus, a large ship in a TF is more likely to have a higher detection level than a small ship within the same TF.


AE is all about compromises which a player must make.  There are both advantages and disadvantages attached to employing multiple smaller TF v a single large TF in the same hex.

Alfred



dasboot1960 -> RE: CV packing (12/28/2019 1:16:15 PM)

I would think that AAA is also a big consideration here, smaller TFs having less. Just looking at the PH Strike force and imagining breaking it down six ways gives me some anxiety.



geofflambert -> RE: CV packing (12/28/2019 3:11:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dasboot1960

I would think that AAA is also a big consideration here, smaller TFs having less. Just looking at the PH Strike force and imagining breaking it down six ways gives me some anxiety.


If you're playing American in late '44 or '45 you don't have a shortage of anything. You might lose track of some of those TFs. You'll lose more casualties to expended flak raining down on you.



geofflambert -> RE: CV packing (12/28/2019 3:15:36 PM)

This from the Wiki on the Battle of Santa Cruz. This is just Oct. of '42.

Between 11:40 and 14:00, the two undamaged Japanese carriers, Zuikaku and Jun'yō, recovered the few aircraft that returned from the morning strikes on Hornet and Enterprise and prepared follow-up strikes. It was now that the devastating losses sustained during these attacks became apparent. Lt. Cmdr. Okumiya Masatake, Jun'yō's air staff officer, described the return of the carrier's first strike groups:

We searched the sky with apprehension. There were only a few planes in the air in comparison with the numbers launched several hours before... The planes lurched and staggered onto the deck, every single fighter and bomber bullet holed ... As the pilots climbed wearily from their cramped cockpits, they told of unbelievable opposition, of skies choked with antiaircraft shell bursts and tracers.

Only one of Jun'yō's bomber leaders returned from the first strike, and upon landing he appeared "so shaken that at times he could not speak coherently".



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