Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (Full Version)

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smckechnie -> Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/6/2020 6:18:49 PM)

Looking for some ideas from the Forum on how to better defend Russia. Against veteran players like Hamburgermeat or Sveint, Russia doesn't have a chance. Just got crushed for a second time by Hamburgermeat. Here are some thoughts:

Priority research for the Russians for comment: Inf weapons, tanks, AA, Anti-tank, Command and Control, Industry, inf warfare, armor warfare, fighter research, intel, Ground attack.

Ideally you could do it all, but against a good player, they will try to limit Russian mobilization. With the latest single slot research for many tech areas, I am really thinking that I need to move up the priority of the intel to help with gaining faster research results.

Veteran players attack Russia around May of 1941. Using a combined arms attack of inf, armor, air, and artillery under good commanders, Russian forward defense gets destroyed without much of a problem for the axis.

Where to build a line to try to hold the axis is the problem. So far, I have yet to find a way to halt axis advance. Any ideas?

Please note that I am not talking about playing against average or novice players. (No offense to those players, as I was there too.) In those situations, I have easily been able to hold the lines, and build combat power to counterattack. Against veteran players though, I am not seeing Russia holding at all. It is a route.

I am seriously considering just building the Russian strategic bombers as early priority to hit supply centers, as nothing so far has worked.



sveint -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/6/2020 7:36:28 PM)

Soviets are still very rough to play in 1.05.

A few thoughts:

Skip air techs. Get AA tech to level 2. All units get upgrade 1 AA tech, only important units get upgrade 2. Get air techs once you start thinking of going on the offensive.

Delay Command and Control tech. Delay tanks techs if you must.

Priority is always to rebuy units destroyed in good supply, higher priority even than techs.

Personally I prioritise Industry, Production and Intel. Some may disagree.

Defend well in the south. You can survive losing Moscow or Leningrad. Don't lose the oil fields/middle east.

Have India buy 2 diplo chits on the Soviets in 1939.




jebboy -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/6/2020 7:54:24 PM)

You take early India, sveint? Interesting, I've never chosen that option.



HamburgerMeat -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/6/2020 8:05:55 PM)

I'll also add that you don't your initial lines too far back, as you want to start rebuilding them immediately. Ideally you want the axis to face a wall of troops, be forced to destroy the troops at >5 supply in order to advance, and have a second wall of troops with full entrenchment and decent morale. Keep buying those discounted armies/corps.

Russia is very hard to play as. Where to place your armies/corps will depend on a lot of factors. Take advantage of defensive hex bonuses where you can without sacrificing the integrity of a line, and don't let the axis take NM cities without paying dearly.

100% agree with svient that you must hold the south. Not only for the resources, but also because of how much clear terrain there is for panzers to play in. Hold the rivers, hold the cities.

Have a clear idea of where to build forts. Honestly I liked your one fort at the marsh above smolensk, will do that from now on, but i wouldnt build too many for the moscow route (there is so much good defensive terrain on the way to moscow).

For me the priority is usually: infantry weps > infantry warfare > anti air x2 > advanced tanks > armored warfare >industrial tech x2 > C&C x2. Agree with svient that you should skip air techs. I always get my 50% refund from advanced aircraft.

Heavy bomber USSR is interesting, but sounds too expensive to pull off.

Might try S&I instead of C&C next time

Anti tanks are strong, but you really can't afford the units and separate tech as the USSR, assuming youre still picking up advanced tanks. I think you either go for anti tank or advanced tanks, not both.



Treefrog -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/6/2020 11:54:40 PM)

smckechnie, as an experienced NOVICE i offer the following:
1. research infantry weapons, infantry doctrine and command and control for obvious effect in creating more durable infantry.



Treefrog -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/7/2020 12:06:49 AM)

oops, that last one when out b4 finished.

2. Research industrial technology. Some folks offer persuasive reasons not to, but to me it is intuitive to do everything possible to get your MPPS production as high as possible as soon as possible.
3. Let other Allies spend as much as necessary to get you foreign aid.
4. AFter you have your research priorities going, add espionage to accelerate research development. The more research categories you have going forward the greater the likelihood that espionage will give you a boost in one; this makes espionage a good "buy".
5. Nothing saves the border troops, but the faster your other troops run east the harder it is for his airplanes to catch up to you. This means you don't need new fighters and fighter research; just save all the fighters you can as you run and upgrade them as upgrades become available.
6. Create a solid line of defense for fighting in October-December. I have seen players buttress their lines in France, Russia and China with beaucoup de anti aircraft, which serves to hamper enemy air attacks and serve as a second line to minimize breakthroughs. AA units are relatively inexpensive and, frankly, pretty tough themselves to root out once entrenched.
7. Manipulation to get the Russians mobilized before the Axis attack sounds promising.



Tanaka -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/7/2020 3:20:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: smckechnie

Looking for some ideas from the Forum on how to better defend Russia. Against veteran players like Hamburgermeat or Sveint, Russia doesn't have a chance. Just got crushed for a second time by Hamburgermeat. Here are some thoughts:

Priority research for the Russians for comment: Inf weapons, tanks, AA, Anti-tank, Command and Control, Industry, inf warfare, armor warfare, fighter research, intel, Ground attack.

Ideally you could do it all, but against a good player, they will try to limit Russian mobilization. With the latest single slot research for many tech areas, I am really thinking that I need to move up the priority of the intel to help with gaining faster research results.

Veteran players attack Russia around May of 1941. Using a combined arms attack of inf, armor, air, and artillery under good commanders, Russian forward defense gets destroyed without much of a problem for the axis.

Where to build a line to try to hold the axis is the problem. So far, I have yet to find a way to halt axis advance. Any ideas?

Please note that I am not talking about playing against average or novice players. (No offense to those players, as I was there too.) In those situations, I have easily been able to hold the lines, and build combat power to counterattack. Against veteran players though, I am not seeing Russia holding at all. It is a route.

I am seriously considering just building the Russian strategic bombers as early priority to hit supply centers, as nothing so far has worked.


Well I am also playing against Sveint and I can tell you he is holding the line as Russia very well. And I don't consider myself a novice. The forward defense in Russia will always get destroyed just as in history that is not going to change just as in France. It is that second line of defense that determines things. He is using a lot of AA like he says and that seems to really help. That and the bad weather and the endless troops and tanks. If I had brought another HQ and stopped with the damn auto assist I would be doing better as I realized too late it was focusing on my garrisons. But I've chosen other expenditures and got lazy with HQ. I'm only doing manual HQ from here on out that's for sure. I did not realize how bad auto assist was. This is my first WAW PBEM game and I've learned a lot and maybe he has learned some things from me too. It's been a fun one. I'm doing better as Japan and waiting for the USA knockout punch to come in Europe.
[sm=tank2-39.gif]



EarlyDoors -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/7/2020 1:22:54 PM)

quote:

Have India buy 2 diplo chits on the Soviets in 1939.



........interesting..............



lwarmonger -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/8/2020 5:55:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

quote:

Have India buy 2 diplo chits on the Soviets in 1939.



........interesting..............


This can also drastically change the game if you put into the united states as well.



sveint -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/8/2020 6:44:30 AM)

2 chits is 10% and quite expensive. So on average Russia (or the US) will get a few more MPs to prepare with. It does force the Axis to be ready for war on time, but any experienced Axis player will do so anyway.

And it also makes India a full army weaker.



lwarmonger -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/8/2020 10:44:16 AM)

I just had the US declare war for me in july of 1941... that really is quite a game changer, especially since the pearl harbor fleet was unscathed and japan was caught flatfooted (I was surprised too... US war entry went from 76% to preparing for war in one turn), so island possessions around the pacific were reinforced.

I'm not saying it is always better to do... but it can certainly change the game and isnt always a bad move (aggregate investment 900 MPPs... in that game at least I made it all back and then some).



sveint -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/8/2020 7:40:05 PM)

The Axis can easily afford to counter-invest and delay Russian or US entry. So it's a game both sides can play.



Christolos -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/8/2020 8:18:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lwarmonger

I just had the US declare war for me in july of 1941... that really is quite a game changer, especially since the pearl harbor fleet was unscathed and japan was caught flatfooted (I was surprised too... US war entry went from 76% to preparing for war in one turn), so island possessions around the pacific were reinforced.

I'm not saying it is always better to do... but it can certainly change the game and isn't always a bad move (aggregate investment 900 MPPs... in that game at least I made it all back and then some).

I'm a little embarrassed to say that I am the one who was caught by this big game changer as I was not expecting it to be so effective so quickly. I noticed a fair number of 150 MPP diplo expenditures but thought it was directed mostly for getting Russia to mobilize quicker. I panicked when I saw the US jump to 76% and so immediately tried countering with a good number of 150 MPP chits (I can't remember exactly how many right now...but will look it up later and post it in an update), but to no avail (and to my shock/surprise [X(]) as the US joined the Allies right away next turn.

I should also mention that I started moving my Japanese carriers and support ships for a Pearl Harbor strike on my next turn (because I didn't expect the US to go from 76% to 100% the next turn!), but I think this may have hastened the US mobilization even more since I recall getting a message about the US being alarmed about something...but I don't remember the exact message right now (I will check my notes and repost).

So in the end, I screwed myself even more by wasting expensive diplo chits that had no effect, and by up alarming the US with my scrambling to hit Pearl harbor before the US joined! [:(]

Well played my friend![:)]

C



Christolos -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/8/2020 8:32:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

Soviets are still very rough to play in 1.05.

A few thoughts:

Skip air techs. Get AA tech to level 2. All units get upgrade 1 AA tech, only important units get upgrade 2. Get air techs once you start thinking of going on the offensive.

Delay Command and Control tech. Delay tanks techs if you must.

Priority is always to rebuy units destroyed in good supply, higher priority even than techs.

Personally I prioritise Industry, Production and Intel. Some may disagree.

Defend well in the south. You can survive losing Moscow or Leningrad. Don't lose the oil fields/middle east.

Have India buy 2 diplo chits on the Soviets in 1939.




I'm learning (the hard way) that Russia can indeed survive losing Moscow or Leningrad, and even losing both, and still survive.
Hanging on to Stalingrad and the Caucasus seems to be more vital...

It also seems to me that the Russian forces in Siberia, which often get operated West to fight the Germans, are simply too few in number to really help.
The Siberians that become available in War in Europe, albeit not until the Germans have made considerable headway with their Barbarossa, are far more numerous than what is available in WaW. Any reason for this?

Maybe more Siberian troops could be made available later on...???

C



lwarmonger -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/9/2020 1:25:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

The Axis can easily afford to counter-invest and delay Russian or US entry. So it's a game both sides can play.


Concur and agree, so it isnt something I would necessarily do every game, but I think three things to consider.

1st, for both the United States and Soviet Union, you are increasing the likelyhood of them throwing off the axis timeline, as well as giving them MPPs to play with. It is one of the few ways the allied player can create uncertainty in the early game.

Second, it is a roughly even exchange in MPPs if both sides compete in this... which is usually better then what the allies can achieve fighting early war while they are still behind with tech.

Third, the axis rely on diplomacy to get nations like turkey, spain, or Yugoslavia into their camp, and they have to do that early before the US enters. If they are putting diplomatic chits into the united states and the Soviet Union they are not getting any minors on their side.

I'm not saying putting MPPs into allied majors is a meta... but it is certainly viable in my opinion.



Tanaka -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/9/2020 2:42:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Christolos


quote:

ORIGINAL: lwarmonger

I just had the US declare war for me in july of 1941... that really is quite a game changer, especially since the pearl harbor fleet was unscathed and japan was caught flatfooted (I was surprised too... US war entry went from 76% to preparing for war in one turn), so island possessions around the pacific were reinforced.

I'm not saying it is always better to do... but it can certainly change the game and isn't always a bad move (aggregate investment 900 MPPs... in that game at least I made it all back and then some).

I'm a little embarrassed to say that I am the one who was caught by this big game changer as I was not expecting it to be so effective so quickly. I noticed a fair number of 150 MPP diplo expenditures but thought it was directed mostly for getting Russia to mobilize quicker. I panicked when I saw the US jump to 76% and so immediately tried countering with a good number of 150 MPP chits (I can't remember exactly how many right now...but will look it up later and post it in an update), but to no avail (and to my shock/surprise [X(]) as the US joined the Allies right away next turn.

I should also mention that I started moving my Japanese carriers and support ships for a Pearl Harbor strike on my next turn (because I didn't expect the US to go from 76% to 100% the next turn!), but I think this may have hastened the US mobilization even more since I recall getting a message about the US being alarmed about something...but I don't remember the exact message right now (I will check my notes and repost).

So in the end, I screwed myself even more by wasting expensive diplo chits that had no effect, and by up alarming the US with my scrambling to hit Pearl harbor before the US joined! [:(]

Well played my friend![:)]

C


US Neutrality:

Until the US enters the war, Axis and US naval movements can trigger changes in US mobilization.
Axis Movements
In brief, the Axis are advised to avoid having any naval units end their turn within the zones off
the east and west coasts of the USA. These zones are marked with the icons of warships with a
small US flag beneath them.
US Movements
The US are best advised to avoid sending any units outside the zone off the east coast, however,
they will only be penalized off the west coast of the USA if they have 3 or more naval units
within 30 hexes of Midway.
Having 3 or more land and/or air units on Oahu or Hawaii before entering the war will trigger
complaints by Isolationists moving the US away from joining the Allies.
The full detail of the scripts are listed below, but if you follow the guidance offered above then
that will suffice.
Western Pan-American Security Zone
- US will swing 10-20% per turn towards the Allies if there are any Axis naval units within the
zone marked by icons around the US west coast, Canada, Hawaii, and parts of Alaska.
- US will swing 1-2% per turn towards the Axis if there are 3 or more US naval units within 30
hexes of Midway Port.
- US will swing 3-5% per turn towards the Axis if there are 3 or more land and/or air units on ei -
ther Oahu or on the island of Hawaii.
Note that these checks do not take into account any units that will deploy in the Pacific when the
US enters the war.
Eastern Pan-American Security Zone
- US will swing 1-2% per turn towards the Allies if there are any Axis naval units within:
 14 hexes of Norfolk Port
 14 hexes of New Orleans Port
 10 hexes of Santo Domingo Port in the Dominican Republic
 10 hexes of Panama Port
- US will swing 1-2% per turn towards the Axis if there are any US naval units within:
 21 hexes of Ponta Delgada Port in the Azores
 26 hexes of Julianehab Port in Greenland
 27 hexes of Villa Cisneros port in western Africa
Note: The definition of naval units includes all types of Transport.



calcwerc -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/12/2020 8:17:02 PM)

Interesting that very good players suggest a forward defence. I have never seen that done succesfully. I think a strong fort-strategy aiming to hold Leningrad, Murmansk, Stalingrad/Caucasus and Moscow, even with limited tech, is more viable to work. Chits in industrial techs and intelligence are worth it.



smckechnie -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/12/2020 10:49:30 PM)

Thanks for the comments from everyone, lots of good takeaways.

I would say that diplomacy to the US is actually a must for the allies. The allies can't afford to have the US stay low on mobilization until attacked in late 1941 or early 1942. In fact, on the previous versions of this game series, it was always a strategic advantage for the axis to delay US entry into the war for as long as possible. I remember at one point, for tournaments, they asked for a gentlemen's agreement to not do any diplomacy towards Major powers. The axis can certainly counter diplomacy towards the US, but that is not a bad thing for the allies. It keeps the axis from having more combat power against Russia and takes away some of their diplomacy efforts towards Turkey or Spain.



Sugar -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/13/2020 12:22:51 AM)

quote:

I remember at one point, for tournaments, they asked for a gentlemen's agreement to not do any diplomacy towards Major powers.


That's not quite correct, in the current WiE tourney houserules are allowed if both players agree, but there were only 2 matches where houserules were applied, one to avoid the so called "uber diplo" meaning to influence majors like the US or SU and the other with soft build limits.

The discussions were about if "uber" would disadvantage the Allies, since they have less income to spend on such expensive dice rolls.

If influencing the US would be a must for the Allies it would also be mandatory to counter for the Axis, in which case nothing is gained. Since the original discussion the costs of influencing majors were increased and the possible effects of diplo hits were decreased. Nothing to fear at all, you'll have to be exceptionelly lucky to gain any advantage over a capable opponent. Just keep an eye on the enemy research and diplo table.



Christolos -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/13/2020 7:30:00 PM)

I'm still wondering why the Russian forces in Siberia, which are badly needed to defend against Barbarossa, are so few in number relative to what is available (albeit later) in SC war in Europe.

Any thoughts anyone?

C



HamburgerMeat -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/13/2020 7:32:10 PM)

You have to consider the units that you start with in siberia (corps, tank, cavalry, and special forces). Most have extra experience (.5). That, combined with the 2 armies, heavy tanks, and aircraft you get are supposed to represent the siberian troops



BillRunacre -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/14/2020 4:49:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Christolos

I'm still wondering why the Russian forces in Siberia, which are badly needed to defend against Barbarossa, are so few in number relative to what is available (albeit later) in SC war in Europe.

Any thoughts anyone?

C


They're going to be a little bit better/bigger in the forthcoming patch.



Bo Rearguard -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/14/2020 10:34:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre


They're going to be a little bit better/bigger in the forthcoming patch.


Da! Everything is bigger in Siberia. [:D]



Christolos -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/15/2020 4:03:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HamburgerMeat

You have to consider the units that you start with in siberia (corps, tank, cavalry, and special forces). Most have extra experience (.5). That, combined with the 2 armies, heavy tanks, and aircraft you get are supposed to represent the siberian troops

Thanks HamburgerMeat.

So you are saying the rest of the Siberian forces are in the production queue, right?

Cheers,

C



Christolos -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/15/2020 4:18:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre


quote:

ORIGINAL: Christolos

I'm still wondering why the Russian forces in Siberia, which are badly needed to defend against Barbarossa, are so few in number relative to what is available (albeit later) in SC war in Europe.

Any thoughts anyone?

C


They're going to be a little bit better/bigger in the forthcoming patch.

Thanks Bill.

I'm sure we all hope this doesn't tip the balance in favor of the Allies, but I agree that the Siberians coming to the rescue should perhaps have a slightly bigger effect than it has right now. Exactly how much bigger, will have to be carefully determined. It will also give the Russians more options, like maybe keeping some of them in the far East to fend off Japanese intentions.

Right now it seems that experienced Allied players can easily hold out in Russia against less experienced Axis players, and experienced Axis players can easily roll over Russia against less experienced Allied players, so it would be very interesting to see what happens when experienced Axis players play against experienced Allied players, with the forthcoming patch. Right now, from looking at the discussions, it seems that the game is fairly balanced when two very experienced players (or perhaps even equal level players for that matter) slog it out, so that would be the real test.

C



sveint -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/15/2020 4:53:44 PM)

I'm very happy to hear there will be some improvements. Would it also be possible to look at the starting positions in China? Maybe move a Chinese HQ south. And to me it seems Japan has more territory (and experience! those are some super elite units) than anything I've ever seen on a historical map.



eightroomofelixir -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/15/2020 5:25:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

I'm very happy to hear there will be some improvements. Would it also be possible to look at the starting positions in China? Maybe move a Chinese HQ south. And to me it seems Japan has more territory (and experience! those are some super elite units) than anything I've ever seen on a historical map.


I too in favor of having a Chinese HQ in the Southern China, at least historically in 1939 Chinese have at least two major military headquarters that conducted major offensives in southern China (Xue Yue near Changsha, and Bai Chongxi near Nanning).

However, in terms of territory, the game is actually in favor of China. When German advancing into Poland in September 1939, Japanese forces already occupied Paotow, Yanku, and Chengchow in northern China, and even already fought several small fights with the Communist China. China at that time had massive losses of territory in the north. But as in game, all these places are still in the Chinese hands.
Maybe these unhistorical territories of China is because of gameplay reasons, the northern Chinese theater is more balanced in game as for now. Without Yanku and Chengchow, the in-game Japanese forces can easily advance into Sian and attack Chongqing from north (although historically due to geographical and logistical reasons they cannot).
I personally thought that the in game China has control over Tibet and Xinjiang (historically the KMT government did not have control over them) is due to similar gameplay reasons, which is understandable, or you will have China collapse after the fall of Chongqing rather than moving the capital further west and tie down a lot of Japanese forces.

(Also, the name of the city of Yanku at that time is actually Taiyuan, the same as the modern name.)



sveint -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/15/2020 6:34:08 PM)

Well the game engine cannot possibly handle the Chinese theatre, reality was often that Japan controlled the cities, but not the countryside.

You'd need some new sort of partisan activity to represent that, it'd be too much work. Also the communists were active earlier, it's really hard to represent at this scale.



eightroomofelixir -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/15/2020 6:54:09 PM)

Certainly. The Chinese theater is very complicated in terms of who controls where and who can move into where; I think the current in-game representation of territory is in general already fine, and provides a chance to strike back against Japanese.

Still it would be very nice if the HQ position can have some changes, it is strange to me that half of your front line don't have any HQ behind it.



lwarmonger -> RE: Looking for ideas on how to better defend Russia. (1/15/2020 10:57:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre
They're going to be a little bit better/bigger in the forthcoming patch.


Maybe have these additional units come in a little later too. Historically the Siberian units were operationally moved in as rail capacity opened up... so staggering their mobilization from july until December could work to balance things (more units overall, but they show up later).



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