Just give me the plane truth (Full Version)

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Q-Ball -> Just give me the plane truth (1/26/2020 1:18:13 PM)

Howdy! After several years I started a new game as Japan, DDB-C #28, so pretty much stock. I wanted to check with the veterans on aircraft development and production choices, because my memory is a little rusty and also performance may have changed with newer game versions. I have some assumptions here and wondered: Could you please tell me if I am on-base or off base? I want the truth, and I can handle the truth.[:D]

1. Is there a point to producing the Pete? Jake is a superior search plane, other than as BB Bombardment spotters, is there anything I need PETES for in particular?
2. TONY v TOJO: They are close in capability, but I assume you cancel Tony program due to engine dead-end....correct?
3. OSCAR: You need this plane early. But once the TOJO is available, is there a role for the Oscar, other than as long-range escort? (Or filler for when you don't have enough Tojos)
4. NICK: What is this plane good for? I recall it's not a good dogfighter, it's great vs. unescorted bombers, but Allies don't do that very often. Anything else? I could see it useful in Strafing or Low N, but that seems like a narrow mission set. Tell me what I am missing.
5. R&D PRIORITIES: Frank, George, and Jack are R&D Priorities. Anything else should be?
6. LILLY: Is there a point to this plane, or should you switch to Helen/Sally when you have enough?
7. LIGHT BOMBERS: In DDB-C you have to pay PPs to switch Light to Medium Bombers. Worth it? Seems like it is when you have enough planes. Mary, Ann, Sonia all kind of suck.

I have cancelled the obvious planes (Nate,Ida). Anything else?



RangerJoe -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/26/2020 1:46:52 PM)

Keep producing the Nates unless you have changed factories. You might as well use the engines and as trainers and early CAP, they are better than no fighters at all.

A lot depends upon PDU-ON or OFF.

I have not gone far, but the Tony changes to the Ki-100 and if you switch the early factories immediately after repairing for the first model, you can go in lines to the better Tony and get it 18 months sooner. You can then have a 1945 fighter in 19 and it uses a common, early engine.

Lilly has a dive bomber version than can the hit DDs but it is not on the upgrade path from the regular Lilly. The Peggy (T) comes in a few months after the regular Peggy with no difference in bomb load when it carries bombs so why not research that one instead of the regular Peggy. Then you also have a Army bomber carrying torpedoes or a full bomb load on Low Nav when torpedoes are not available but the torpedo is load out selected.

Skip the Pete, produce a lot of Jakes. Supersize the float planes groups and use them for search and ASW. Take the extra float plane groups off the cruisers and supersize them. Use up the old planes then switch them to Jakes. They can also hit on low Nav pretty well with no airfields. Nice for hit and run air movements against no or lightly armored targets. They can also train the pilots for Low Nav Kamikazes.

Check the engines for the aircraft and use that for decision making as well. If an aircraft uses a unique engine, it is vulnerable to bombing destroying the engine factory. Some of the air frames that use unique engines also have high SR ratings, see what the SR ratings are for later models that use a common engine and decide accordingly. Check the Judys and Jills besides the Tonys. The latest Zero also uses a different engine. If you want to, put all of the aircraft and engines in a spreadsheet, then sort by engines and use that.

Research the Rufe but switch to later Zeros to get them early.

Use Nicks against allied 4E beasts. Mix them up in layered CAP.

Remember that when you have the engine bonus for 500+ engines, each extra research point uses an engine.



GetAssista -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/26/2020 1:58:41 PM)

I assume by your questions it is PDU ON game. Goes without saying that the following is my opinion only.

1. no point
2. Early Tony is useless, late one of I/II variety is great bomber killer with its cannons (but not much else). If you are allowed to skip models with R&D you can get it very early.
3. Later Oscar has no other role except escort and filler. But range is important - given the pilot situation it is much better to spend your IJAAF fighters as escorts compared to IJNAF.
4. Early Nick is the only plane to counter 4Es with no excessive losses until you have 2nd generation researched.
5. By priority you mean 5+ R&D factories? Zero line should be there in R&D queue. Sam should be there too even if it comes late. It is your only competitive CV fighter later. Nightfighters are important later too (Randy kicks ass late) even if you might not see their importance until 44. Good non-fighter airframes (Judy, Helen, Emily, Peggy-T etc) also deserve their 1-2 factories each, or more. Depends on personal tastes.
6. Later Lilly DB is great anti shipping cover where you don't have good airfields and torps. Takes some load off the Netties shoulders.
7. Mary and Ann carry 250kg bomb and can fly from small airfields - good for China and ASW (the latter model). The former also uses obsolete engine you have a hoard of from the start, so it is cheap to build. Converting them to FB (if allowed) might be better.



Q-Ball -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/26/2020 2:18:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

7. Mary and Ann carry 250kg bomb and can fly from small airfields - good for China and ASW (the latter model). The former also uses obsolete engine you have a hoard of from the start, so it is cheap to build. Converting them to FB (if allowed) might be better.



Great advice gents, thank you! Couple follow-ons:

1. I realize you still need the NATE, but does it need to be produced? Seems like you'll have enough replacements just from units upgrading to OSCAR.
2. On the MARY, I can appreciate it would work in ASW.....but it's not in production at start. Do you put it back into production to use the engines?

Also, on R&D in general, IIRC, you pick the models you want to advance, get the R&D Factory to Size 30 (which is optimal), make sure that location gets supplies, and wait. Anything else? I know the R&D factories repair very slowly, faster as the availability date approaches. Oh, and you have to make sure you have engines.



specie1 -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/26/2020 2:54:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

2. Early Tony is useless, late one of I/II variety is great bomber killer with its cannons (but not much else). If you are



Doesn't the Oscar IV have the same 2xH0-5 Cannon set up as the Tony Ki-100-i/ii?

and can't you get that late '42? early '43?



RangerJoe -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/26/2020 3:01:40 PM)

You have the engines for the Nate and some units need more aircraft. You will also lose some and you may not make enough Oscars. It just depends on how your losses go. But you should be through producing the Nate by the time that the Tojo research is finished so you might as well then convert those to Tojo production, keeping the research on the Tojo until the last model will come on line. Then those factories can either produce the Tojo or switch research for another model aircraft.

I don't know about switching a factory to Mary production, is there another aircraft that can use the engines? Now or later? I don't have my game open at the moment.

On R&D, it is just get everything ready then wait. Hurry up and wait.



GetAssista -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/26/2020 3:02:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: specie1
quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
2. Early Tony is useless, late one of I/II variety is great bomber killer with its cannons (but not much else). If you are

Doesn't the Oscar IV have the same 2xH0-5 Cannon set up as the Tony Ki-100-i/ii?
and can't you get that late '42? early '43?

Durability 30 vs 23 (in stock) is where it is



offenseman -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/26/2020 3:48:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

7. Mary and Ann carry 250kg bomb and can fly from small airfields - good for China and ASW (the latter model). The former also uses obsolete engine you have a hoard of from the start, so it is cheap to build. Converting them to FB (if allowed) might be better.



Great advice gents, thank you! Couple follow-ons:

1. I realize you still need the NATE, but does it need to be produced? Seems like you'll have enough replacements just from units upgrading to OSCAR.
2. On the MARY, I can appreciate it would work in ASW.....but it's not in production at start. Do you put it back into production to use the engines?

Also, on R&D in general, IIRC, you pick the models you want to advance, get the R&D Factory to Size 30 (which is optimal), make sure that location gets supplies, and wait. Anything else? I know the R&D factories repair very slowly, faster as the availability date approaches. Oh, and you have to make sure you have engines.



1 Nate may have engines but actually using them beyond training purposes is a waste of pilots. I'd much rather waste the engines I never paid for.
Really unless the Nates are fighting I-15/16 they have little chance in the air and that means losing pilots who started the war with some experience.
2. I'd never pay 1000 supply per factory to build obsolete design. You can use existing Mary and Anns to train IJA pilots if you want to do that and then when Helen I comes you have an airframe that is an armored bomber, and asw crate that carries MAD later in the war. I've had good luck with Helens with trained ASW pilots. Yes they cost twice as much because it is two engines but I think the opportunity cost is less because of damage inflicted. One also has to remember that ASW search range half of naval search range, Mary and Ann have very small search ranges.



offenseman -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/26/2020 4:06:24 PM)

IMHO for Japan it is all about pilots. If pilot losses while flying bad aircraft into combat with the small hope of attaining positive results, results in having a slower start in establishing an effective cadre of pilots, it is not worth it. At game start, I'd much rather not fly CAP at all with Nates with the exception of over Kota Bharu on turn one or two due to pilot losses after that point. Also I'd never use Nates for escorts and would rather ground bombers if was my only option. I'd also prefer to not fly Mary, Ann, and especially Sonia into battle anywhere but in China where AAA is non existent and one can easily fly them where fighters simply cannot show up.

Or look at it this way. Every good pilot in a Nate vs anything but a I-15/16 is at extreme risk of not being around to fly in an Oscar 1c by January 1 when they will be much more effective.



geofflambert -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/26/2020 8:44:16 PM)

Agree on the Nates. You start the war with enough trainers for the entire war. You will never run out of Nates. You can use them to chase search planes but that's it. You can sweep British bases with Oscars and win for quite a while. The Allied player cannot afford putting Brits in air battles, the pilots cannot be replaced. The Nates don't have the range to do anything in the Pacific, you have to use Zeros, but be very careful with those.



jdsrae -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/26/2020 9:16:10 PM)

I’m in late Apr 42 in my pbem. I haven’t built Nates but am still swimming in them.
I also haven’t used Nates in combat after about 9 Dec 41 in Malaya. Too high a risk of losing fighter pilots.
You may as well change the Nate factory to a plane that isn’t already obsolete.



Canoerebel -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/26/2020 9:36:03 PM)

Nates are useful, daytime and nighttime, getting in the way of B-24s and B-17s, messing up their aim enough to lessen the impact of Allied bombing raids. I've seen experienced Japanese players using them effectively into 1944.

Edited To Correct: Nix this. It's not Nates I'm thinking of, it's Nicks. The Nicks can be useful counter-4EB fighters.



RangerJoe -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/26/2020 9:44:18 PM)

Nates can shoot down the Hudsons, the early Dutch bombers, handle Buffaloes, and the Chinese Air Force. If you go into the USSR in 1942, you will need them against the Soviets.



RADM.Yamaguchi -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/26/2020 10:10:33 PM)

i guess i'll stop bombing troops in china with them. sheesh



PaxMondo -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/27/2020 2:58:43 AM)

Q,

My opinions.
1. Every IJ plane has a potential role, but some are more common roles than others.
2. Fighters, more than any other single plane, dictate the outcome for IJ.
3. IJ bombers, with few exceptions, are terribly outclassed by the US.
Exceptions:
G3M3 - great range (21 normal). use as night bomber and patrol the whole war.
B7A2 - great range (10 normal). better than any allied TB or DB. Downside: no 500kg, only 2x250kg.
4. Getting George + Frank in late-mid '43 can create havoc for the allies and keep the initiative with IJ in the land war. You can keep control of the air, and then your lousy very mediocre Sally/Helen bombers are able to negate the arty advantage that the allies start to get in this time period.
5. Getting Sam in early-mid '44 can create a window for the IJ to take on the Death Star before it is fully formed. With its climb and speed, it is the best IJN defensive fighter when the KB is a fish reef.



Q-Ball -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/27/2020 3:07:15 AM)

Tons of great advice here, thank you all!

I didn't even ask on transports....Topsy is not amazing, but seems like a good idea to just use up the engine pool for it at least. I don't recall suffering alot of Transport losses, so those 50 or so Topsy built can get you to the Tabby, which is a much better plane. Is that about right?




BBfanboy -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/27/2020 4:41:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Tons of great advice here, thank you all!

I didn't even ask on transports....Topsy is not amazing, but seems like a good idea to just use up the engine pool for it at least. I don't recall suffering alot of Transport losses, so those 50 or so Topsy built can get you to the Tabby, which is a much better plane. Is that about right?



I do not play as the IJ exclusively, but the little I have done suggests that range is a big factor for the Japanese while they hold the scattered islands in SoPac. I can't think of any Japanese item that is not air transportable by early transports and needs a higher capacity lift provided by later aircraft (but I reiterate that I have little experience with this). IIRC the Allies have such a situation with anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns.



rustysi -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/27/2020 9:08:22 PM)

quote:

is there anything I need PETES for in particular?


Training.

quote:

2. TONY v TOJO:


Tojo. You can get it much quicker than the TONY.

quote:

But once the TOJO is available, is there a role for the Oscar, other than as long-range escort?


That's it.

quote:

4. NICK:


Nick will hold up as an early dog-fighter. After that its good to keep your opponent honest by protecting rear bases.

quote:

5. R&D PRIORITIES: Frank, George, and Jack are R&D Priorities. Anything else should be?


OK, except the Jack. Its really not needed, put the R&D you'd put there to aid in getting the Sam.

quote:

6. LILLY:


Talk to Lowpe, he's an advocate of this plane. At least the DB version. I wouldn't R&D it though, it comes naturally at the start of '43. Having a few around could be useful.

quote:

7. LIGHT BOMBERS:
quote:

Mary, Ann, Sonia all kind of suck.


Early game they're quite useful operating from small forward bases, but you have enough at start so I wouldn't build more.

The above is JMHO. YMMV.[8D]



rustysi -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/27/2020 9:16:45 PM)

quote:

Keep producing the Nates


I didn't produce a single one, and I don't miss it.

You're stuck using them at start, but get rid of them ASAP. Range-too short. Protection-none. Firepower-none. They make good trainers. Once they're out of use some of their air frames will convert to HI, their best use.[:D]



rustysi -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/27/2020 9:33:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Tons of great advice here, thank you all!

I didn't even ask on transports....Topsy is not amazing, but seems like a good idea to just use up the engine pool for it at least. I don't recall suffering alot of Transport losses, so those 50 or so Topsy built can get you to the Tabby, which is a much better plane. Is that about right?


I had a long response to this, but my session timed out and don't have much time.

Anyway the Topsy and Tabby are not compatible. One's navy the other army. You need the Helen xport for the army.



geofflambert -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/27/2020 10:43:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Tons of great advice here, thank you all!

I didn't even ask on transports....Topsy is not amazing, but seems like a good idea to just use up the engine pool for it at least. I don't recall suffering alot of Transport losses, so those 50 or so Topsy built can get you to the Tabby, which is a much better plane. Is that about right?



I do not play as the IJ exclusively, but the little I have done suggests that range is a big factor for the Japanese while they hold the scattered islands in SoPac. I can't think of any Japanese item that is not air transportable by early transports and needs a higher capacity lift provided by later aircraft (but I reiterate that I have little experience with this). IIRC the Allies have such a situation with anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns.


Keep in mind that Topsy is IJA and Tabby is IJN, so they don't use the same pilots or the same squadrons. The Betty-L is outstanding because of it's combination of load and range. Tabby is a back engineered C-47, very nice but the range is often not so useful in the Pacific. I personally use IJA transport squadrons to a great extent as general trainers so that new recruits have something to do if all my regular training slots are full. So go ahead and build those Topsy's and the Hickorys too.



inqistor -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/27/2020 11:01:34 PM)

I can only said from VH viewpoint, so Allied AI probably have some combat bonus, NATE seems to do ok against Buffalo (that means, they don't lose any planes, and probably damage/destroy 1 enemy). But they are worse than Chinese planes, I-15 even seems to be more maneuverable, than NATE.

However, B-17 (in early, small numbers) seems to have aim really affected, when there are even NATEs. Like, only in 10% of cases they seems to hit anything, when there is CAP over Base.

As for transport planes - go for range, and float transports. Capacity seems to do small difference, and groups are so large, than numbers alone are sufficient.



geofflambert -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/27/2020 11:38:45 PM)

B-17s will shoot down a lot of fighters, which is good, but their main use should be naval search. If the Allied player wants to win a carrier battle he has to see the KB before the KB sees him. B-17s in that role are a lot harder to shoot down than Catalinas. If you know the KB is out there somewhere, use B-17s to find them rather than lose what few Catalinas you have. B-17s should be covering the Coral and Solomon seas and to the north if possible.



rustysi -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/28/2020 3:45:56 PM)

quote:

The Betty-L is outstanding because of it's combination of load and range.


[&:]

Transport version of the Emily (H8K-L or whatever) is far better.



rustysi -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/28/2020 4:03:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Tons of great advice here, thank you all!

I didn't even ask on transports....Topsy is not amazing, but seems like a good idea to just use up the engine pool for it at least. I don't recall suffering alot of Transport losses, so those 50 or so Topsy built can get you to the Tabby, which is a much better plane. Is that about right?


I had a long response to this, but my session timed out and don't have much time.

Anyway the Topsy and Tabby are not compatible. One's navy the other army. You need the Helen xport for the army.



quote:

and the Hickorys too.


Yes. I talked about this yesterday, before I was so rudely interrupted.[:D]

I tend to use my xports quite a lot early on, and as a result I incur somewhat heavy ops losses. C'est la guerre.

However it does have an impact on maintaining my xport groups. To fill the 'gaps' I produce some Hickorys. Once they become available 'naturally' there should be plenty of engines available in the pool. IIRC the only other plane that uses its engine is the IDA. I for one build '0' Ida's.



Chickenboy -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/28/2020 4:25:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Howdy! After several years I started a new game as Japan, DDB-C #28, so pretty much stock. I wanted to check with the veterans on aircraft development and production choices, because my memory is a little rusty and also performance may have changed with newer game versions. I have some assumptions here and wondered: Could you please tell me if I am on-base or off base? I want the truth, and I can handle the truth.[:D]

1. Is there a point to producing the Pete? Jake is a superior search plane, other than as BB Bombardment spotters, is there anything I need PETES for in particular?


No.
quote:


2. TONY v TOJO: They are close in capability, but I assume you cancel Tony program due to engine dead-end....correct?


Tojo (IIc) should be a primary goal of yours for 1943 IJAAF water carrier fighter airframe. I build small numbers of the Ki-61a. But I convert a number of Ki-61a research factories to the Ki-100-I by exploiting the similar airframe fast-tracking opportunity in PDU-ON research. As a result, I will have Ki-100-I (a 1945 SR1 fighter) in mid-1943. So, the Tony research tree is useful from this point of view, but of limited value in PDU OFF.

quote:


3. OSCAR: You need this plane early. But once the TOJO is available, is there a role for the Oscar, other than as long-range escort? (Or filler for when you don't have enough Tojos)


I will produce small to modest numbers of Oscar IIa/b/III/IV airframes for the reason you cited. I'm also interested in seeing how well these work as kamikazes with their '2x250kg' payloads and their SR1 status.

quote:


4. NICK: What is this plane good for? I recall it's not a good dogfighter, it's great vs. unescorted bombers, but Allies don't do that very often.


They don't? I haven't got that memo. I've always had Allied dog opponents that led with their B-17/B-24 'chin'. The first Nick variant can hold its own in conjunction with better dogfighters (e.g., Tojo IIc) in stacked CAP, where the Nick can bring its CL cannons to bear on unsuspecting Allied dog heavy bomber groups. It'll positively shred "Medium" bombers if they are unescorted too.

quote:


5. R&D PRIORITIES: Frank, George, and Jack are R&D Priorities. Anything else should be?


Yeah, these are important. So's the Tojo IIc and-as mentioned earlier-Ki-100-I in PDU ON research settings. From the IJNAF perspective, I'd like to get rid of my unarmored A6M2s, so I try to get to A6M5c ASAP. Also, the D3A1 is an outdated POS from day one. Don't do what the IRL Japanese did and delay conversion into the D4YX series. Getting A6M5/c / D4Y1/2/3 and (less critical) B6N1/2 on your carriers will keep you competitive longer. If you can arrange a CV fight in late 1942 with these airframes deployed, you'll likely have a numerical and qualitative advantage at that point in time.
quote:


6. LILLY: Is there a point to this plane, or should you switch to Helen/Sally when you have enough?


I've never really gotten much of a hankerin' for Lillys. Skip it and go to Helens.
quote:


7. LIGHT BOMBERS: In DDB-C you have to pay PPs to switch Light to Medium Bombers. Worth it? Seems like it is when you have enough planes. Mary, Ann, Sonia all kind of suck.


Other than training groups, these planes are all dead to me. I wouldn't deploy anything to the front from these types. Pay the PP and never look back.
quote:


I have cancelled the obvious planes (Nate,Ida). Anything else?


Maintain a small Glen factory until the proprietary engines are used up, then switch to something else. You should be able to have a hundred or so in your inventory by the time the engines dry up.

Caveat #1: These comments are for scenario 1 or 2. I'm uncomfortable with extrapolating them to other mods.

Caveat #2: YMMV, my opinions only. Blah, blah blah. [8D]



jdsrae -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/30/2020 12:33:00 AM)

On transports:
For IJA I am only building Topsy-I to use up engines, less than 20/month. I’m using all but a few of my IJA Transport groups in forward areas but it feels like the Topsy pool will last until the Helen Transport starts production.
For IJN I am only building Mavis-L but with 4 engines they are expensive. I’m building about 10/month. Not building Tabby because the places I want to fly IJN units to/from don’t tend to have airfields.



geofflambert -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/30/2020 12:37:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

The Betty-L is outstanding because of it's combination of load and range.


[&:]

Transport version of the Emily (H8K-L or whatever) is far better.


Talking two engine with wheels Betty beats them all.



geofflambert -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/30/2020 12:52:02 AM)

As I said before, there are many squadrons that can fly/train in Nicks that can do so in no other fighter type. Once trained on Nicks, those pilots can move to Franks or whatever. Plus, with it's bomb load and range it makes a good ship killer. I usually man them in the field with fully trained fighter pilots who are also fully trained at attacking ships. If your CVs are within protection range of your land bases, LR CAP by these can eat a lot of torpedo bombers as well as their escorts. Key plane to me.

[image]local://upfiles/37002/6CEFD298196A4D96AEE87A6E4557D629.jpg[/image]



geofflambert -> RE: Just give me the plane truth (1/30/2020 12:56:30 AM)

Lilly IIb and c are dive bombers which means they're better attacking ships and as ASW. Build the Helens/Peggys you need to attack airfields and ports and stop there. When the Peggy-T comes along use it. To cover a lot of territory attacking subs and any ships that get too close, use the Lillys. Build a minimum number of the pre-dive bomber versions.

[image]local://upfiles/37002/E07D7694FCD64D4D99D4162487B6BF9E.jpg[/image]



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