What happened to the Zooks?!? (Full Version)

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Spellbinder -> What happened to the Zooks?!? (6/29/2001 9:16:00 PM)

Hi all, just started a battle 4/23/43 as the Americans and just had all my Bazookas bouncing off - even 3 shots at point blank vs. 251/1!! :eek: How can that be? C'mon, even the early Zooks had quite some punch, anf the way they exploded, I can't think of ricocheting them babies! :mad: Has anyone else experienced this??? Oh, it's ver. 5.3 Ciao Klaus aka Spellbinder [ June 29, 2001: Message edited by: Spellbinder ]



Paul Vebber -> (6/29/2001 10:46:00 PM)

Delete your steel.prf file - I just tested 20 bazooka shots (M1 and M9 against 20 HTs and every one that hit did damage ro bailed it) Not deleteing steel.prf means you may get funky results or game crashes. Everytme you upgrade make sure you delete steel.prf



Spellbinder -> (6/29/2001 10:47:00 PM)

Thanks Paul, I will give it a try - eventhough I'm sure it deleted it :-/ Tanks again Klaus



Santa Klaus -> (7/11/2001 6:58:00 PM)

Paul, you are right, when firng the M1/M9 from a Bazzoka Team, it definately does some damage :p However, the US squads Bazooka bounces off almost all the time :eek: I checked it in Chandlas Editor, and the problem seems to be in the No3 Slot. The BAZ can only fire HE and AP :confused: Off course the AP round then bounces off. Do you think you can solve this problem? I'm getting tired of my Zooks ricocheing(sp) all the time, even from Halftracks and the Rifle grenade doing more damage :mad: Thanks for your help and thankls for this Grrrrrreat game :) Klaus aka Spellbinder



Paul Vebber -> (7/12/2001 12:58:00 AM)

Somehow the "222" got deleted form the AP pen slot of the M1 in one of our recent iterations. Put the 222 back in the AP pen slot and the Bazooka will fire HEAT instead of AP. This will be fixed when the "clean up" of the OOBs is released. Its not the only such typo, many very obscure to find...The M9 is OK There does seem to be a strange HE richocet thing going on...He should not ricochet, but it still does external damage, which is about all an Anti personnel round like the Bazooka had would likely do... I have to look to see if that is a bug or intentional becasue of the low velocity of the HE round in the zook. HE rounds penetration is derived in no small part part by the velocity of the shell case, so this may not be a bug. [ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ] [ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]



Santa Klaus -> (7/12/2001 3:42:00 AM)

Paul, again thanks for your fast response - there's no customer service like Matrix Customer service! :D You guys are Great! Thanks for the info. Klaus aka Spellbinder



Nikademus -> (7/12/2001 6:14:00 AM)

odd, i hav'nt experienced these problems with the latest versions. In fact, the other night i bagged my first Jagdtiger with a "zook" heh, to say i was giddy with this most spectacular kill since booting up WAW was an understatement. Course the very next turn a hidden MG 42 wiped out the entire 12 man squadron in one shot. OUCH. (gotta love those new infantry rules though) :eek:



Warrior -> (7/12/2001 6:25:00 AM)

BINGO! Now I know why I always try to get the M9's!! :D So let me get this straight: I open the Oob Editor, click the File button, pick Edit Oob, open Oob 82 - US Army, choose the Weapons tab, find the M1 Bazooka, change the "0" for AP Pen to "222," then Save and Close and that will fix the problem? And, of course, make sure all PBEM opponents do the same change. I just noticed something: The US Marine Bazookas have 10 AP rounds and no HEAT. But the US Army Bazookas show 10 rounds HEAT and no AP. Which is right?? [ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Warrior ]



gators -> (7/12/2001 8:12:00 AM)

wouldn't it be hard to model the type of damage an HE bazooka round would do? It wouldn't be easy to model those sacks of loot most tankers tie to their turrets. Ha! :D



Paul Vebber -> (7/12/2001 10:50:00 AM)

As long as AP pen says 222 then AP=HEAT, so it doesn;t matter. There is no slot for HEAT ammo if the weapon is not in slot one so the 222 accounts for this. Anybody have the explosive weight of a bazooka HE round? [ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]



Bonzo -> (7/12/2001 11:39:00 AM)

ROCKET M6A1 through M6A3 all had 8 ounces (0.5 pound) of pentalite in its shaped charge warhead, the M6A3 H.E.A.T. was a standard AT round for Bazookas. For comparison, the US AT rifle grenade M9A1 had 4 ounces (0.25 pound) of Pentalite in its shaped charge warhead. (source - U.S. Catalog of Standard Ordinance, 2nd Edition, 1944, Volume 3)



Paul Vebber -> (7/12/2001 12:24:00 PM)

Wasn't there an HE (non-HEAT) Rocket with a frag warhead?



Timo -> (7/12/2001 12:52:00 PM)

Hi, About the Bazooka HE round- I thought the Zook didn't have a dedicated HE round(at least according to Gander's book "Bazooka"). So the round is just a normal HEAT round fired against infantry, right? Shouldn't be too effective, cause there's no fragmentation jacket in it. I'm not complaining about it, though... Timo



Bonzo -> (7/12/2001 1:12:00 PM)

Perhaps the plain Rocket M6 was H.E.(not likely), but is not listed in my 1944 Catalog except to say the M6A1 through A3 replaced it and it was obsolete. The M6A1 has a 'pointed' nose and the modifications from the M6 are listed as: Improved ignition, involving removal of the contact ring from th ogive,reduced powder charge and inserted obturator disc. The M6A2 has the same modifications except that the contact ring was not removed from the ogive. The M6A3was the same as the M6A1 except it had a hemispherical ogive and cylindrical fins. There is also the White Phosphorus Smoke round, the WP Smoke Rocket M10 (formerly the T26E2) that is the same 2.36 diameter, and carried a 0.9 pound white Phosphorus filler. There is no mention of it being used in bazookas, but there is the comment that it was used for "laying down smoke screens and as an effective casualty producing weapon against enemy personel in pillboxes, foxholes, trenches, etc." If there were a straight H.E. round, I would not expect its warhead to be larger than the 0.9 pound WP round. You could compare it to the similarly sized 60mm mortar round. The M49A2 60mm H.E. Mortar round had an overall weight of 2.9 pounds with 0.34 pounds of TNT, compared with the 3.4 pound overall weight of the M6A1 Rocket with a 0.5 pound warhead. The Rocket should be heavier for a given warhead weight, due to the less efficient use of propellant by a rocket motor compared with the closed breach mortar. [ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: Bonzo ]



Timo -> (7/12/2001 2:16:00 PM)

Actually, the Gander book did have a picture of a "HE round" - Two standard pineapple hand grenades attached to a standard rocket tailpiece. Definitely a prototype and absolutely silly. Not adopted :D Timo



Spellbinder -> (7/12/2001 3:27:00 PM)

Hi all, I'm not that much a technical buff, but from ASL the BAZ has a HEAT round and a WP round. In ASL the HEAT can attack infantry, but only in buildings, behind walls ect. as Collateral Attack. Hope this helps. Anyway, wouldn't it be nice to have WP rounds that cause Morale Checks/Supression in the hex? :D Ciao Klaus aka Spellbinder



panda124c -> (7/12/2001 7:41:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Bonzo: Perhaps the plain Rocket M6 was H.E.(not likely), but is not listed in my 1944 Catalog except to say the M6A1 through A3 replaced it and it was obsolete. The M6A1 has a 'pointed' nose and the modifications from the M6 are listed as: Improved ignition, involving removal of the contact ring from th ogive,reduced powder charge and inserted obturator disc. The M6A2 has the same modifications except that the contact ring was not removed from the ogive. The M6A3was the same as the M6A1 except it had a hemispherical ogive and cylindrical fins. There is also the White Phosphorus Smoke round, the WP Smoke Rocket M10 (formerly the T26E2) that is the same 2.36 diameter, and carried a 0.9 pound white Phosphorus filler. There is no mention of it being used in bazookas, but there is the comment that it was used for "laying down smoke screens and as an effective casualty producing weapon against enemy personel in pillboxes, foxholes, trenches, etc." If there were a straight H.E. round, I would not expect its warhead to be larger than the 0.9 pound WP round. You could compare it to the similarly sized 60mm mortar round. The M49A2 60mm H.E. Mortar round had an overall weight of 2.9 pounds with 0.34 pounds of TNT, compared with the 3.4 pound overall weight of the M6A1 Rocket with a 0.5 pound warhead. The Rocket should be heavier for a given warhead weight, due to the less efficient use of propellant by a rocket motor compared with the closed breach mortar. [ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: Bonzo ]
According to the Ballintine Weapons series the Bazooka did not have an HE round because of the size, however there was a WP round for smoke and WP effect. I don't remember if there were any other details I'll have to check. One of the reasons given was the most desirable effect agains bunkers and building that the HEAT round had and the poor effectiveness of the HEAT round against personal.



Gen. Maczek -> (7/12/2001 8:00:00 PM)

Can someone fill me in on this steel.prf file? I am updated to version 6.1, and everything seems to be working fine despite the fact I havnt deleted anything. Should I, and why? If so where can I find this file? Thanks. Regards. Gen. Maczek



Warrior -> (7/12/2001 9:12:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Gen. Maczek: Can someone fill me in on this steel.prf file? I am updated to version 6.1, and everything seems to be working fine despite the fact I havnt deleted anything. Should I, and why? If so where can I find this file?
"steel.prf" is the file that holds the games preferences, either defaults or the ones you set. It is in the game SAVE folder. Whenever you do an upgrade, it has been found to be a good idea to delete both steel.prf AND mech.exe (from the Steel Panthers World at War folder) first, to avoid possible problems later. If deleted, the steel.prf file is automatically regenerated again when you start the next game. If you're not having problems with the upgrade - leave it alone. But if the game starts acting weird, the first thing to do is delete steel.prf. That helps in most cases. :)



Paul Vebber -> (7/12/2001 10:04:00 PM)

Unfortunately we don;t have a WP round ... have to wait fo CL/CA for that. SO what I am hearing is the fix should be to take away the HE round altogether from the Bazooka?



TheOriginalOverlord -> (7/12/2001 10:47:00 PM)

I found in the Army FM 23-22 "the AT rocket is used mainly for armored targets but can be used against infantry as the blast effects are slightly greater than a 60mm mortar shell" I'm not sure "which" round they are reffereing to but since the manual was dated '49 I'm assuming it was the latest one (M9A3?) If we get rid of the HE round how will that effect its use against Infantry/MG teams? Personally I've never had much luck attacking Inf with it. Your thoughts?



Spellbinder -> (7/12/2001 11:55:00 PM)

**I found in the Army FM 23-22 "the AT rocket is used mainly for armored targets but can be used against infantry as the blast effects are slightly greater than a 60mm mortar shell" I'm not sure "which" round they are reffereing to but since the manual was dated '49 I'm assuming it was the latest one (M9A3?) If we get rid of the HE round how will that effect its use against Infantry/MG teams? Personally I've never had much luck attacking Inf with it. Your thoughts? +++++++++++++++++++++++ I never had any luck vs. Infantry either and I always found it a waste of precious shots :( It would be realistic (ahh, the bad word again!!!) to remove it, but I'm not sure if other players see it the same :D Ciao Klaus aka Spellbinder



Paul Vebber -> (7/13/2001 2:22:00 AM)

IF you only have HEAT they do not afect infantry, so that would take away an historical aspect of the Bazooka. The HE rounds give bazookas their historic capability as "poor mans infantry guns" in a pinch abstracting it with seperate HE rounds seems to be the only way to do that right now without messing things all up.



Warrior -> (7/13/2001 5:32:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: SO what I am hearing is the fix should be to take away the HE round altogether from the Bazooka?
NOOOOO!! I like blowing up enemy soldiers with bazookas! I always picture that scene from Rambo where he nails the bad guy with an HE shot from his trusty bow & arrow. :D



Mark Ezra -> (7/13/2001 6:46:00 AM)

Thanks for the quick fix. I'll let my PBEM partners know about it and how easy it was to repair with SPEdit!



Bonzo -> (7/13/2001 6:49:00 AM)

Paul, I make no request that the HE be taken away from the bazooka. Just answering your request for data. perhaps the HE slot can be used to simulate the willie-pete. The velocity, range, accuracy & overall weight of the WP round was the same as the HEAT. I'll let people with more experience discuss how 0.9 pounds of WP should compare with what size HE. Also bear in mind the weight of 3.4 pounds per round when considering combat loadout for foot sloggers who are also carrying small arms, SA ammo & all the necessities of war. 10 rounds weighs 34 pounds The M9 'Zook weighs another 14.5 pounds Add spare batteries & such and your at 50 pounds for just the Bazooka. Add 9.9 pounds each for M1 with bayonet Throw in some ammo at about 20 rounds to the pound (give or take). Take a few casualties or reduced squad, and something in their loadout has to go if the squad is going to be mobile. Just a few thoughts that are probably better considered for CA/CL.



panda124c -> (7/13/2001 7:44:00 PM)

"As well as it's primary use as an anti-tank weapon, the Bazooka was soon found to be a useful method of opening up buildings and pillboxes which would otherwise have had to be attacked by a crawling man carrying a satchel charge. As an anti-personnel device the hollow charge warhead was too directional to be of much use, but this side of the question was taken care of later by providing a white phosphorus filled warhead which could be used for providing instant smoke or as an incendiary and anti-personnel weapon of considerable effectiveness." So it appear that the HE round in the OOB for the Bazooka actually represents the white phosphorus round. Quotes from "Grenades & Mortars" by Ian Hogg Ballantine's Illustrated History of the Violent Century, weapons book No 37.



TheOriginalOverlord -> (7/19/2001 12:51:00 AM)

New info.. I just checked the FM on the Bazooka, (Feb '44) It only lists the HEAT round and the Practice round. The November '49 FM has the M10 WP round in it. So at least up till early '44 there were no WP rockets. So far I haven't been able to find out when this WP rocket was introduced into service. [ July 18, 2001: Message edited by: Overlord ]



panda124c -> (7/19/2001 1:31:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Overlord: New info.. I just checked the FM on the Bazooka, (Feb '44) It only lists the HEAT round and the Practice round. The November '49 FM has the M10 WP round in it. So at least up till early '44 there were no WP rockets. So far I haven't been able to find out when this WP rocket was introduced into service. [ July 18, 2001: Message edited by: Overlord ]
Perhaps the lack of HE is the reason the new guy always ended up carrying the Bazooka. :rolleyes:



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