does AA fire on land combat defense?

does AA fire on land combat defense? (Full Version)

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Jorge_Stanbury -> does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/12/2020 12:48:39 AM)
does an AA gun device has any defense impact on land combat? they won't "shoot" on offensive because they lack AV value; but how would they defend? I mean, would a .50 cal or 13mm work like a standard machine gun? or would a 90mm M1A1 gun shoot down tanks? thanks

PaxMondo -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/12/2020 2:11:53 AM)
I don't know. Could they, did they. IRL the answer is yes. In the game? Not sure, but the AE team was pretty hardcore and wanted things to work. They've got the AT algorithm in place (defensive fire only), so it wouldn't have been too hard to expand that to include other guns. And support troops also pitch in on defense only. My gut tells me yes, but I have no hard evidence to support it. Sandboxing it wouldn't be too hard … just look for supply usage in defense.

BBfanboy -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/12/2020 3:55:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo I don't know. Could they, did they. IRL the answer is yes. In the game? Not sure, but the AE team was pretty hardcore and wanted things to work. They've got the AT algorithm in place (defensive fire only), so it wouldn't have been too hard to expand that to include other guns. And support troops also pitch in on defense only. My gut tells me yes, but I have no hard evidence to support it. Sandboxing it wouldn't be too hard … just look for supply usage in defense. I think I saw a comment by Alfred or one of the devs that they would defend themselves if they were about to get overrun. I did once trap an AA unit and shock attacked with tanks - lost a couple of tanks destroyed and about three times that number disabled but the AA unit was destroyed.

Alfred -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/12/2020 4:31:25 AM)
1. Don't confuse a type AAA device with a type DP device. 2. The supply metric would be of limited value. Alfred

Ian R -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/12/2020 6:53:13 AM)
I included the M16 quad 50 halftrack mounted MGMC in my mod. It arrives in dedicated auto-weapons battalions per the historical schedule. These were certainly available during the Luzon and Okinawa campaigns. I set it up as an AFV. The troops referred to them as "meat choppers". In the European theatre, it is alleged German infantry would surrender when one was operating nearby. I have no firm view on whether the ceiling setting means it actually shoots at aircraft. [image]https://i.imgur.com/kSC2frV.png[/image]

GetAssista -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/12/2020 7:52:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy I think I saw a comment by Alfred or one of the devs that they would defend themselves if they were about to get overrun. I did once trap an AA unit and shock attacked with tanks - lost a couple of tanks destroyed and about three times that number disabled but the AA unit was destroyed. I have same experience with isolated AA against tanks. Presumably the guns indeed manage to get some shots

RangerJoe -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/12/2020 10:46:58 AM)
The M16 as well as the M15 were both mobile AA platforms. Later on in the war, they were usually not needed as such so they were used in the ground support role. The .50 bullet would go through brick walls.

rustysi -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/12/2020 5:23:23 PM)
I have seen some AAA batteries fire in an anti-invasion roll. Don't recall what caliber they were, its been a while. Please don't confuse this with a CD type attack, troops were landing in the hex.

btd64 -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/12/2020 5:34:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rustysi I have seen some AAA batteries fire in an anti-invasion roll. Don't recall what caliber they were, its been a while. Please don't confuse this with a CD type attack, troops were landing in the hex. I have had AAA and dp fire at invaders and bombarding ships....GP

RangerJoe -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/12/2020 5:35:19 PM)
I saw a Japanese ship sunk by a 40mm. They probably fire defensively like anti-tank guns but not offensively.

rustysi -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/12/2020 5:41:16 PM)
quote: They probably fire defensively like anti-tank guns but not offensively. My guess as well.

inqistor -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/12/2020 10:55:43 PM)
My guess is, that every Device with anti-soft/armor can fire during combat. I haven't seen isolated AA units damage anything, but they were mostly fragments, and already defeated once already. But considering how defensive invasion/bombardment fire works - only CD guns seems to have any chance to hit anything, they have better accuracy, than normal guns, but numbers alone are much higher that all guns combined in hex. I just made invasion against Palmyra. During night bombardment there was only 6 guns firing, but when my troops began unloading, there are suddenly 76 reported firing. And during ground assault only 53 guns are listed.

BBfanboy -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/13/2020 2:39:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: inqistor My guess is, that every Device with anti-soft/armor can fire during combat. I haven't seen isolated AA units damage anything, but they were mostly fragments, and already defeated once already. But considering how defensive invasion/bombardment fire works - only CD guns seems to have any chance to hit anything, they have better accuracy, than normal guns, but numbers alone are much higher that all guns combined in hex. I just made invasion against Palmyra. During night bombardment there was only 6 guns firing, but when my troops began unloading, there are suddenly 76 reported firing. And during ground assault only 53 guns are listed. The CD unit or Naval Fortress has the rangefinders and computers for targeting ships pre-landing, as the troops are getting into their landing craft. The following phase where it says troops are lost going over the beach is all the other defensive fire from the enemy - including MGs, rifles, mortars, field arty, etc. I am not sure if the Naval Fortress can contribute to gunfire on the beach.

Alfred -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/13/2020 3:03:26 AM)
The entire discussion in this thread is moot, very moot. So moot it verges on being silly. There is a significant difference between any AAA device and any DP device. This difference is easily noticed when their firepower stats are looked at. In general terms DP devices will have a meaningful anti-armour/anti-soft rating. This means their participation in combat allows for meaningful damage to be inflicted on enemy devices. The comparable firepower ratings for a land AAA device is usually only around 1. To put that into context, Support devices are around 5 times more powerful. Every experienced AE player knows Support devices provide very limited firepower to combat, so how much does one think the 20% of very limited actually contributes. Alfred

RangerJoe -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/13/2020 3:52:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred The entire discussion in this thread is moot, very moot. So moot it verges on being silly. So? Your point is? There is a significant difference between any AAA device and any DP device. This difference is easily noticed when their firepower stats are looked at. Where are the stats located in the game? In general terms DP devices will have a meaningful anti-armour/anti-soft rating. This means their participation in combat allows for meaningful damage to be inflicted on enemy devices. You mean that if a pixelated person was hit by a AAA device that there would be no damage? The comparable firepower ratings for a land AAA device is usually only around 1. Where is this information located?To put that into context, Support devices are around 5 times more powerful. Every experienced AE player knows Support devices provide very limited firepower to combat, so how much does one think the 20% of very limited actually contributes. Every little bit helps! Alfred The straw that broke the camels back is not the last one, it is the sum of the total.

Alfred -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/13/2020 4:29:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe So? Your point is? A great deal of naval gazing about what goes on under the hood which is irrelevant to how the game plays out. Where are the stats located in the game? In the ingame database and the editor. Basic game information sources which would not be overlooked by anyone wishing to make informed comments. You mean that if a pixelated person was hit by a AAA device that there would be no damage? Correct. Conforms to basic game combat algorithms where a hit does not guarantee any damage results. Well known state of affairs by well informed game commentators. Where is this information located? Again found in the ingame database (land firepower data excluded for AA devices) and editor. That AAA device land firepower is not listed in the ingame database speaks eloquently of the importance attached to the issue by the devs. Every little bit helps! No it doesn't really help. Stick to buying a lottery ticket, the odds are probably better there of getting some ROI. Almost everyone gets a negative return on their lottery investment. Alfred

RangerJoe -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/13/2020 5:25:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe So? Your point is? A great deal of naval gazing about what goes on under the hood which is irrelevant to how the game plays out. Where are the stats located in the game? In the ingame database and the editor. Basic game information sources which would not be overlooked by anyone wishing to make informed comments. You mean that if a pixelated person was hit by a AAA device that there would be no damage? Correct. Conforms to basic game combat algorithms where a hit does not guarantee any damage results. Well known state of affairs by well informed game commentators. Where is this information located? Again found in the ingame database (land firepower data excluded for AA devices) and editor. That AAA device land firepower is not listed in the ingame database speaks eloquently of the importance attached to the issue by the devs. Every little bit helps! No it doesn't really help. Stick to buying a lottery ticket, the odds are probably better there of getting some ROI. Almost everyone gets a negative return on their lottery investment. Alfred The game plays out by what goes under the hood so trying to figure that out helps. I don't look in the editor for information when playing the game. Just because the land firepower numbers are not listed in the game does not mean that they are not used. Are you stating that I am not making informed comments? Please state who the informed commentators are and thus anyone not listed is uninformed. Also, are you always this insulting or just an A$$? I don't play the lottery. When you use an acronym, please state what you mean then put the acronym in parenthesis. Otherwise the wrong meaning might be conveyed.

inqistor -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/13/2020 7:51:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: inqistor My guess is, that every Device with anti-soft/armor can fire during combat. I haven't seen isolated AA units damage anything, but they were mostly fragments, and already defeated once already. But considering how defensive invasion/bombardment fire works - only CD guns seems to have any chance to hit anything, they have better accuracy, than normal guns, but numbers alone are much higher that all guns combined in hex. I just made invasion against Palmyra. During night bombardment there was only 6 guns firing, but when my troops began unloading, there are suddenly 76 reported firing. And during ground assault only 53 guns are listed. The CD unit or Naval Fortress has the rangefinders and computers for targeting ships pre-landing, as the troops are getting into their landing craft. The following phase where it says troops are lost going over the beach is all the other defensive fire from the enemy - including MGs, rifles, mortars, field arty, etc. I am not sure if the Naval Fortress can contribute to gunfire on the beach. I hardly care if I lost 10 more squads during unloading, but I'm pretty sure I have lost Transport Ships only when CD guns were present at landing hex. And they shoot every time you unload something, even only supply. I had like 15 damaged ships disbanded at nearby island, when I invaded Palembang. It was 3 days invasion, and I had rotating CAs in unloading TF all the time, haven't helped in suppressing CD fire. If your transport is hit, you lose part of everything onboard. It is even worse if it is set on fire.

Kursk1943 -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/15/2020 6:52:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury does an AA gun device has any defense impact on land combat? they won't "shoot" on offensive because they lack AV value; but how would they defend? I mean, would a .50 cal or 13mm work like a standard machine gun? or would a 90mm M1A1 gun shoot down tanks? thanks Only if they are flying low enough...[;)]

modrow -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/15/2020 7:34:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred There is a significant difference between any AAA device and any DP device. This difference is easily noticed when their firepower stats are looked at. In general terms DP devices will have a meaningful anti-armour/anti-soft rating. This means their participation in combat allows for meaningful damage to be inflicted on enemy devices. The comparable firepower ratings for a land AAA device is usually only around 1. To put that into context, Support devices are around 5 times more powerful. Every experienced AE player knows Support devices provide very limited firepower to combat, so how much does one think the 20% of very limited actually contributes. Alfred Alfred, now you got me confused. Tracker (which differentiates between Flak and DP guns) seems to attribute quite meaningful anti soft/anti hard values to Flak. See here from a vanilla scen 2 game. Hartwig [image]local://upfiles/22130/7B2A2292D545414BB3124C1651DF084E.jpg[/image]

modrow -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/15/2020 7:42:27 AM)
To put this into context, for comparison the data set for army guns. To me it looks like Flak has the full parameter set for the land combat routine, in many cases with meaningful values if you believe in tracker. Note that in-game database does not show a number of the parameters unveiled by Tracker, so I think the fact that something is not mentioned there may indicate it is something to be figured out by the player rather than something that the algorithm does not use in a meaningful way. Just striving for improved understanding, as usual. Hartwig [image]local://upfiles/22130/2D7CC6FF49B343E498C77683B53EA2BC.jpg[/image]

PaxMondo -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/15/2020 11:43:48 AM)
I think what Alfred may have been pointing to is that in the data files, there are no secondary values for the AA devices (type 12). So, the primary values are what are used for the primary mission for all devices. In this case AA. For a secondary use, the secondary values are pulled in, but there aren't any. That would mean, they ain't gonna do much. You can't see these values in tracker, nor in the standard editor. You can view them using the wiptaeload utility which is how most of us modders work with the data. Now even if the fields were populated, there would still have to be code in the land combat to look at type 12 devices and since none of them have any values, then a good bet is that there isn't any code to support them. Further evidence is that when JWE was doing a lot of tweaks to enhance the engine performance, he didn't look at these devices and he had access to the code. So, I would say Alfred is completely correct (as usual) and whatever impact AA may have in ground combat it will fall under the Grigsby rule of "Anything is possible, just not very probable". So, I may very well have observed in my 10's of 1000's of turns AA participating in ground combat, but it might not happen to me again in my lifetime. Finally, do not take offense at Alfred. He is terse in his wording, but only because he is trying to be precise. Those of us who have been here a long time are not offended by his terseness as we value his insights and incredible encyclopedic memory. Like me, but even before me, he was here while the game was still being developed and remembers a lot of those developer discussions quite clearly. He willingly shares those memories with us which is of great help. Just my 2 cents ...

Alfred -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/15/2020 12:56:05 PM)
modrow, As an accredited lawyer, you would be well aware of the legal principle that there are no superfluous words in a document. Every single word has a meaning and cannot be thrown away as having no significance. If you go back and reread my posts you will now notice I associated, where relevant, the word "land" with ""AAA device". That was a deliberate action on my part. Your Tracker screenshots do not distinguish between "land" and "naval" AAA devices. That distinction is found in the ingame database. Once again showing that third party software is not a replacement for the original, source tools provided by the game. Again, as an accredited lawyer, you would be well aware of the pitfalls associated with relying upon using a photocopy of an original document rather than the original document itself. Naval AAA devices can participate in naval bombardments. It was precisely because flak ammo could be substantially expended in a bombardment, leaving insufficient ammo to fire at enemy aircraft in subsequent phases, that setting TF bombardment distance was introduced in an early patch so that flak ammo could be conserved. Before someone else tries to be too "clever", naval bombardment is not land combat. The naval bombardment algorithms were coded and implemented by the AE dev Naval Team, not the AE dev Land Team. As that specific naval TF mission does interact with land devices, it is appropriate that these naval AAA devices have a meaningful anti soft/arm value. Alfred

jdsrae -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/16/2020 6:36:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred 1. Don't confuse a type AAA device with a type DP device. 2. The supply metric would be of limited value. Alfred The key take away from all this for me is in Alfred’s point #1. AAA devices are different to DP devices. Later he notes that land devices are also treated differently to naval devices. The in game devices can be filtered to see only DP guns plus the nationality, so to see just IJA I filtered out the IJN. Assuming that the point of highlighting the distinction was that land DP guns can fire in an AT role, for Japan, land based DP gun devices seem to exist in the TOE for so few land combat units that it will not change the outcome of the war. I’ll post an image shortly with a few more details that I found, but land based DP guns for Japan are mostly in IJN base forces. Even if the DP guns they hold do what DP guns say they will do on the tin, I am not going to use those units any differently than I do now. [image]local://upfiles/34194/B48110E706DD4EA49E3471A98A1A2FC3.jpg[/image]

inqistor -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/16/2020 8:32:56 AM)
In editor device can be either Japanese, or Allied (or both), so no difference between IJA, or IJN. Even better, those Mxxxx guns are described as FRENCH CD GUNS. Maybe part of some forts in Indochina?

RangerJoe -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/16/2020 9:12:05 AM)
In my scenario 2 game, those last three guns are in the static forts at Saigon, Cam Ranh Bay, and Haiphong.

jdsrae -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/16/2020 9:29:18 AM)
Yep same in scenario 1, I just didn’t have those forts in my spreadsheet. Those fixed DP guns may be able to fire in the AT role, but the bottom line is there aren’t many of them in game. All the AA devices in IJA AA Regts and IJAAF base forces are AAA guns which I am going to take as being able to fire skywards only.

PaxMondo -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/16/2020 5:27:17 PM)
All of those DP guns are naval. They are mounted as naval gun batteries for coastal defense and can only fire (primary) against naval targets and (secondary) against air attacks. They do not have any direct fire in land combat capability that I am aware of. Think of it as they are mounted facing the wrong way.

Ian R -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/18/2020 10:46:25 AM)
The discussion above should show why, after a little experimentation, I settled for an AFV classification for the M16 MGMC.

RangerJoe -> RE: does AA fire on land combat defense? (2/23/2020 3:56:55 PM)
quote: Ground combat at Kuantan (51,79) Japanese Deliberate attack Attacking force 4856 troops, 41 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 168 Defending force 374 troops, 25 guns, 34 vehicles, Assault Value = 1 Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 1 Japanese adjusted assault: 129 Allied adjusted defense: 3 Japanese assault odds: 43 to 1 (fort level 1) Japanese forces CAPTURE Kuantan !!! Combat modifiers Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), preparation(-), morale(-) experience(-) Attacker: Japanese ground losses: 102 casualties reported Squads: 1 destroyed, 7 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled Allied ground losses: Guns lost 20 (20 destroyed, 0 disabled) Vehicles lost 32 (32 destroyed, 0 disabled) Units retreated 1 Defeated Allied Units Retreating! Assaulting units: 56th Infantry Regiment 12th Engineer Regiment Defending units: 3rd HK&S Light AA Regiment That is quite a few Japanese casualties for just the support troops defending. [X(] Wait, maybe the Japanese got run over by the trucks! [X(]

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