I'm giving up on this game (Full Version)

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DicedT -> I'm giving up on this game (2/12/2020 1:03:53 AM)

I wanted to like WarPlan. I really did.

But I'm giving up on the game. I think it's broken, and it's not going to be fixed.

The list of problems is almost infinite. Building too many escorts doesn't help against U-boats (which doesn't even make sense -- when did the Royal Navy ever complain it had too many corvettes?). Invasions that take place under the noses of enemy fleets and bombers. U.S. Entry that doesn't go up, even when the Axis capture British Dover and half the map. Capturing enemy flak guns, like this is Axis & Allies.

I don't think these are bugs. These are features. WarPlan very much reflects the vision of the designer, He has a certain vision of gameplay and of World War II history, and if you don't accept that vision, the game isn't fun.

Unfortunately, it just doesn't work for me. WarPlan is too quirky to be a serious simulation, and too complex to be a simple strategy game. I wish it were otherwise. There are a lot of good ideas here. But the game as a whole just doesn't work for me.

For those who do enjoy it, good luck.

Michael



battlevonwar -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/12/2020 1:08:27 AM)

To each their own... Each game has it's idiosyncracies you gotta just simply learn them. I remember in Strategic Command 3 repelling D-Day 5 times with just airpower. They literally were so OP you got their tech/XP up high enough they did the job of a land army. All games have exploits, tactical/strategic possibilities. It's hard to cope with some. I use to toss my hair out playing Terif in SC the dude would know every possible scripted/strategic/tactical possibility. He would take 3 or 4 times as long as I anyone else per turn and just own the game. Such is gaming!

I still enjoyed getting my ass kicked to a point and learned a lot though if it happens too much you do get a little depressed.

Just learning this but all the Matrix Grand Strategy Games are the same they can be learned to the point where it's hard to win in them. Lower your opponent level and try/try again or move on to another but have fun!



FelixCulpa -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/12/2020 2:15:28 AM)

@DicedT Is your opinion based on your play against AI?

Because AI is always going to be flunky to some degree.

Perhaps give a H2H game a try.



PanzerMike -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/12/2020 6:25:24 AM)

I disagree, Warplan is a great game IMHO.

Yes it needed some time to mature after release, which happens for most games of this nature. The current beta is a HUGE improvement all over. It will hopefully not be long before this becomes the official release.
Alvaro's support for his game has been VERY good indeed. The number of bugs squashed is impressive and he is currently playing many games, both H2H and vs the AI, to see if balancing needs some more work. The number of remaining bugs in the latest beta seems to be very low.

So I would say, that when this beta becomes official, Warplan is good to go. Sure, it could still be improved upon, mainly better AI and balance, but this too is quite a normal thing for a game like this.

I hope the beta will soon be finalized, after that I will wholeheartedly recommend the game to anyone that likes strategy games.

But again, to each their own.



tyronec -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/12/2020 1:21:48 PM)

DicedT has been playing HvH games - you can read that on the Forum.

There are a few bugs that have been around for a while, Alvaro could you tell us if these are being worked on ?
AA being captured.
Movement cost into a hex that has just been taken by ground combat.
Losses screen summary.

There are also some design aspects that have come up more than once in the Forum, is your decision that they are working as intended and not going to change or are you still looking at them ?
Escorts very weak in '39
Invasions too easy/transports moving too fast
Many multiples of air attacks against one hex

For me am really enjoying playing the game. It has flaws, but don't all wargames, I play one game for a while and then move on to another one. I guess if some of the things listed above were going to improve it would keep me playing longer.



pzgndr -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/12/2020 1:45:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PanzerMike
Yes it needed some time to mature after release, which happens for most games of this nature...
Alvaro's support for his game has been VERY good indeed...


For a first game by a new developer, introducing some new game mechanics and then trying to get all of the historical accuracy and play balance issues worked out to most players' satisfaction, this has been a very good effort. Certainly there are a few things that could be improved, and Al has those on his list for the next game engine. And player feedback has been constructive. That's a good sign, indicating players are playing the game and having some fun.



ago1000 -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/12/2020 1:46:34 PM)

I will agree with Michael that Warplan reflects the vision of the designer and this vision is extends to how the game should be played. That's not a bad thing. I have put it aside for a bit also, not because I feel that the game is buggy or not fun. I enjoy playing. My issue is that there needs to be more information provided in the manual with regard to certain mechanics of the game. It takes a long time to figure out simple things that I believe should be provided on game screens or the manual, for example, upgrade production cost per unit type, reinforcement costs per strength per unit. I believe these things and others I could list would be apparent to the leaders to help them make the best decisions for their troops and create best strategy practices. This is the main reason I have stopped for a bit. When the manual is updated and the game gets updated, I'll probably look at it again.
Alvaro has done a great job crushing bugs, answering questions. I may disagree with some of his suggestions because I simply would do something different, for example, I don't set my Upgrade/Reinforcement production to about 50% of what I produce. I have learned that to upgrade certain units I need to have more control of what production is used for. But this is not a game breaker for me. At present I play HOTSEAT mode and find the game enjoyable.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/12/2020 2:00:13 PM)

AA captured has been replaced by AA killed. I also added that any land unit can move AA.
The movement cost issue has been fixed.
Im fairly certain the losses screen has been fixed in the beta unless something new came up I don't know about

Escorts are supposed to be very weak in 1939. Germany did the most damage to Allied convoys in 1939 per uboat. By 1942 this effectiveness was cut in half. I am current'y in 2 games as the Allies and I have no issues defending my convoys. Managing convoys requires strategic decisions and keeping an eye on the enemy submarines and what lanes they are hunting to appropriately allocate escorts. The UK has gotten extra production, more difficult Sealion, and improved interception rules. Even in the game I am the Axis the battle of the Atlantic seems pretty reasonable. A total of 31 subs were sunk between Sept 1939 and December 1940. That is 10 factors of subs in WarPlan. In my Allied game, which I just loaded up, I have sunk 22 subs by Jan 1941.

The stats stand as this.
22 subs hit @60% repair cost = 144 production cost
vs 37 merchant marine lost + 2 escorts = 410 production cost.

Now unreasonable nor the campaign. He has been good with his subs and I have been diligent hunting him down and paying attention. Skills are evenly matched. My opponent has a healthy 2.84:1 ration of production loss.

Invasions... slow moving invasions aren't the solution here. Players need to patrol and place aircraft to intercept incoming fleets. Right now 1 air and 1 naval get to intercept the incoming invasion force. As the UK you MUST patrol the Eastern Med. You must place fleets in patrolling spots near the UK. And even if they land it doesn't mean the end of the world. In another game I am in the German player tricked me and split my patrol fleets landing in Northern England trying to establish a beachhead in 1940. It was contained and is being destroyed and blockaded. I am trying to think of ways to prevent a quick load and move but frankly there isn't any. Slowing down ships leaves them vulnerable at sea and becomes tedious moving them 1-2 hexes a turn. It opens them to be obliterated by enemy forces. Adds another set of rules to the game. Naval travel wasn't that difficult. The Pearl Harbor strike force took 7 days to cross a map twice the width of the current WarPlan map. The move/operational distances are set to where an Italian navy can't move and invade Gibraltar or Syria in one shot. They have to go out to sea making an island like Crete way more valuable than most other games of the type.

Multiple air attacks - One thing players don't realize is that this has diminishing returns.
for each effectiveness lost the air strike is 2% less effective. So if a unit is at 50% effectiveness an air unit has no further effectiveness loss on it. It does still do physical damage but the chance of that is 16%. At best I use 2 air strikes on a unit and set the rest for direct ground support. I just added this to the manual edits so it is better clarified with numbers.

I hope these explained things.

Here is the deal with WarPlan. It breaks the mold. So players aren't used to the mold being broken. Most games are copies and improvements on older systems. Which is how you improve things. I took a large risk on building such an internally complex game for 1 person. This could have been a total flop. But I felt gamers would appreciate the depth and ease of use the game provides. So there is a lot to be tested and tried. Thus why I am in 4 games to the end online. Luckily I got a new opponent that I am helping with strategy and an experienced one. Each are taking their own strategies and I am trying 2 different strategies. So we will see the results at the end of the games.

What I think players are not used to is the long term patient strategic aspect and planning. As the Allies I am always short resources. I love it. It forces me to think what I need to build up as the UK. It's starting 1941 in both games and I have doubled my # of escorts in lane. I have build a good amount of land units, have build 2 patrol groups. Put a big BEF in France to slow down the German juggernaught. Patrolled the English channel with fleets and based aircraft to stop a potential Sealion. My oil reserves are at 35%. I have to balance and strategize everything which engages my thinking. The game is right where I think it needs me so far.

Most games are point-click, 1 unit attack games. This is vastly different, and still new. So it is improved over time and players keep discovering new strategies. Shoot even I am. Not saying WarPlan is better than other games it is just different. Focuses more on strategy and logistics than tactical maneuvering.

I am glad you are enjoying the game. I have gotten lots of messages of players saying "wow the depth to this is incredible. Each time I play I try something new"

So we keep going. Yours and other players posting concerns, complaints, and recommendation all go in my bug or idea box. I look at these things and deeply consider them. Some I might save for the next version. Sales have been higher than expected which means people like it.

So keep posting. BTW after the PBEM games I will be playing the A.I. to improve it.



PanzerMike -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/12/2020 3:12:29 PM)

Your support of the game is much appreciated. Improving the AI is always a good thing as many players play the game solo. I will keep reporting any findings, especially regarding what can be done to help the AI. I just reported that the AI needs some garrison units around Baku for example, and they will be added. All these small improvements will make the AI tougher in time. I like it!



topolm -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/12/2020 4:57:52 PM)

I like this game.To enjoy this game, you must remember that this is a game and not just copying the history of the Second World War.
Many bugs are constantly being fixed and the game is improving.



Michael T -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/12/2020 8:10:27 PM)

My biggest gripe with the game is the ease, the cheapness, the adhoc nature and plethora of seaborne invasions. The rest of the game is pretty solid, just needs the odd tweak. But the invasion aspect is poor. I forgot to mention you can't even contest an invasion. To be honest I would toss out the entire invasion system and start again.



PanzerMike -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/12/2020 8:21:26 PM)

Have you played the latest beta? UK and USA AI tried a massive invasion in Northern Spain in my game. I had the Italian Navy and some aircraft there. The invasion was a failure. Massive losses. A few corps did manage to get ashore, but where quickly eliminated by my reserve troops.

It was a sight to behold, great sea battles of the coast of Spain. Things are vastly different now concerning invasions with the latest beta!



AlvaroSousa -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/12/2020 8:42:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PanzerMike

Have you played the latest beta? UK and USA AI tried a massive invasion in Northern Spain in my game. I had the Italian Navy and some aircraft there. The invasion was a failure. Massive losses. A few corps did manage to get ashore, but where quickly eliminated by my reserve troops.

It was a sight to behold, great sea battles of the coast of Spain. Things are vastly different now concerning invasions with the latest beta!


Did you play "Ride of the Valkyries" as it happened?



Michael T -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/12/2020 11:50:47 PM)

I know about the beta changes. They are a good thing. But still not far enough in my view.




FrankGallagher -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/13/2020 5:04:24 AM)

I'm very much enjoying the game. The main thing I'd like to see improved, when Alvaro has the time to work on the AI, is to bump up the AI's aggressiveness. In my latest game, Italy has, almost completely on its own, stymied the US Torch in Africa for over a year. Not because the US couldn't have pushed through, but they simply didn't. But I love the mechanics in WarPlan, and the way it feels like some of my favorite board games on the subject. Keep up the good work.



IBender -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/13/2020 1:27:47 PM)

I think the game is great. Its not perfect but I feel it it is a big step up from strategic command which I thought was just too simple. I get not everyone will like everything..but this game feels really good and going in the right direction. I plan on buying the pacific version when it comes out.



PanzerMike -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/13/2020 1:42:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa


quote:

ORIGINAL: PanzerMike

Have you played the latest beta? UK and USA AI tried a massive invasion in Northern Spain in my game. I had the Italian Navy and some aircraft there. The invasion was a failure. Massive losses. A few corps did manage to get ashore, but where quickly eliminated by my reserve troops.

It was a sight to behold, great sea battles of the coast of Spain. Things are vastly different now concerning invasions with the latest beta!


Did you play "Ride of the Valkyries" as it happened?

Meanwhile I am in 1944 and the AI tried two more invasions, both in France. My defense was too strong, the Luftwaffe was there in force. It really is nail biting to watch :-)



MagicMissile -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/13/2020 3:52:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IBender

I think the game is great. Its not perfect but I feel it it is a big step up from strategic command which I thought was just too simple. I get not everyone will like everything..but this game feels really good and going in the right direction. I plan on buying the pacific version when it comes out.


+1 I agree. Donīt think I have had so much fun with a computer wargame before and I bought a lot [:)]

/MM



Almeron -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/13/2020 4:50:29 PM)

This game is great. I love the land aspect, and I'm fine with the naval one. Ships need to move, not just rest into ports.
However, the invasions are too cheap. Maybe 30 PP, instead of 15, and longer build time, could give the much needed balance. Because right now, it's easy, and useful to have 3-6 landing ship just in case.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/13/2020 5:55:12 PM)

it costs 25% of land forces to invade about.



Almeron -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/13/2020 6:05:23 PM)

quote:

it costs 25% of land forces to invade about.


I don't understand. Landing ships cost 15 PP/10 unit. So a full german corps (30 strong corps) need 45 PP, for 30 landing ship.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/13/2020 6:30:08 PM)

landing ships are 15 production for 10 points.
A large corps costs 45 points of landing ships.
A large corps costs 180

45 / 180 = .25 = 25% of the cost of building a large corps.

Armor....
They will now require 60 landing craft to invade which costs 90 production
90 / 360 = .25 = 25% of the cost of building an armor

As the war progresses and techs of units along with economies these costs drop by ratio which abstractly represents better technology with invasions.



MVokt -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/13/2020 6:35:15 PM)

I have been reading for some time this game forum and it appears that it's veteran wargamers which are more unsatisfied with some aspects of the game whilst newer or less experienced wargamers think that the game is excellent. This is a fact and also a clue.

My opinion is that the game has potential but right now (and at the time of its release) it's sort of an unfinished thing. I once read a review about this game, referring to it as a game that lacks a soul and may be the review really referred to the fact that the game feels like incomplete.

I own the game and haven't had the time to fully get into it but I often visit the forum and read the continuous bug reportings and game balance issues. This early and massive reporting proofs that the game is maybe still incomplete in some (or even in many) aspects.



Almeron -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/13/2020 6:37:05 PM)

Oh... never realized armours need more landing ships.
However the cost is still to low, and build time still. Doubling those numbers could solve the hasty invasion question. But that's just an opinion.



tyronec -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/13/2020 6:54:06 PM)

quote:

AA captured has been replaced by AA killed. I also added that any land unit can move AA.
The movement cost issue has been fixed.
Im fairly certain the losses screen has been fixed in the beta unless something new came up I don't know about

Am playing Beta h4, HvH games, and none of these are working right.
Did you do upload a later fix ?



ThunderLizard11 -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/13/2020 7:17:48 PM)

I'm still new to WP but the OP has some good points. I'm just not liking it as much as SC-WiE or WaW. Part of that is just learning the new systems. Glad to see Alvaro is working like mad on this and will give it another go after the next beta is ready.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/13/2020 8:42:06 PM)

I have not uploaded the fixes yet. later today.

I find the opposite. Most older wargamers like me like it and it is the younger ones who are upset. Usually those who have played many 1 unit 1 click wargames like PanzerCorps or Unity of Command.

I'll know when my 3rd months of sales comes out Friday. So far 2 great sales month better than expected. So it is on the right track.



ThunderLizard11 -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/14/2020 6:10:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

I have not uploaded the fixes yet. later today.

I find the opposite. Most older wargamers like me like it and it is the younger ones who are upset. Usually those who have played many 1 unit 1 click wargames like PanzerCorps or Unity of Command.

I'll know when my 3rd months of sales comes out Friday. So far 2 great sales month better than expected. So it is on the right track.


Glad to hear sales are going well!



AlvaroSousa -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/14/2020 7:55:42 PM)

Yep another good month of sales.



PanzerMike -> RE: I'm giving up on this game (2/14/2020 8:05:35 PM)

Congrats then for you, Alvaro! And for us, for getting a good game (that keeps getting better with each passing week).



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