Australian Divisions Aden (Full Version)

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Scott_USN -> Australian Divisions Aden (2/14/2020 4:56:09 PM)

What do you do with the Australian divisions arriving in Aden? I think think 6th 7th and 9th, the artillery? I generally keep them in CBI since can flood South Pac with US and Australian forces.

I assume all of these divisions and support units were pulled from European Theater to defend Australia. I play AI though.





Sardaukar -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/14/2020 4:59:21 PM)

I also use them in CBI.

I usually also evacuate 2 AUS brigades from Singapore to form 8th AUS in Australia.




HansBolter -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/14/2020 5:09:34 PM)

I used them to invade Japan.




RangerJoe -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/14/2020 5:21:15 PM)

These were the units in North Afrika. Use them how you want, depending upon your need.




Leandros -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/14/2020 5:32:02 PM)

The Australian Prime Minister, Curtin, used much effort to have them shipped back to Australia as soon as possible after Tobruk, Greece and Crete. Churchill wanted to use them everywhere else. There's nothing in the game that says you cannot use them wherever you like, if no particular house rules are agreed upon. Just my opinion.

In my Rookie II thread I have used them to support MacArthur's defense of the Philippines and Moluccas.

Fred




RangerJoe -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/14/2020 5:50:01 PM)

Considering that there was not much for military strength in Australia at the time, Prime Minister Curtain was justified for want them home.




Scott_USN -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/14/2020 6:01:51 PM)

Yeah was just curious and they are some of the best in the theater for the moment. Especially in CBI where many are just cannon fodder for experience and moral. Even the British 18th is sad in comparison.

I also pull the Australians out of Singapore and send to PM where they are needed.




Scott_USN -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/14/2020 6:04:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

In my Rookie II thread I have used them to support MacArthur's defense of the Philippines and Moluccas.

Fred


Wow getting there is rough! I tried to get some supplies in but the magic Betty's just blow me away.




Leandros -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/14/2020 6:10:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_USN


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

In my Rookie II thread I have used them to support MacArthur's defense of the Philippines and Moluccas.

Fred


Wow getting there is rough! I tried to get some supplies in but the magic Betty's just blow me away.



Well, it's a long story. You should read it..[;)]...

Fred




Scott_USN -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/14/2020 6:17:39 PM)

I will read it sounds fun!




jdsrae -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/14/2020 7:35:50 PM)

Many of the AIF Bdes started their war in England before moving to North Africa and the Middle East.

That the AIF Divs were released against the wishes of the UK and against the advice of the US was no small matter.

Part of 6th Div helped garrison Ceylon for a while before it all moved home.
7th Div was nearly sent to Burma, but parts of it were sent to NW Java to try and help defend there.
9th Div came straight home and moved to sunny Queensland to reorg as a jungle Div.

Because you don’t have to worry about domestic politics or international relations in game, you can send them anywhere.
Using them anywhere like Ceylon, NE India, Burma, DEI is pretty realistic.

CrackSabbath has moved 6th and 7th Aussie Divs to Chittagong in my game right now.
I asked him how he is keeping them from mutiny seeing as NW Aust has been invaded.
He says they have taken a liking to spicy food and naan bread. Can’t argue with that logic!




spence -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/15/2020 2:44:33 AM)

quote:

Because you don’t have to worry about domestic politics or international relations in game, you can send them anywhere.
Using them anywhere like Ceylon, NE India, Burma, DEI is pretty realistic.


Committing divisions to a particular theater seems like a better and more realistic use for Political Points than replacing some waste of flesh 2nd Looie with a Colonel who already knows (at least) how to tie his shoes.




RangerJoe -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/15/2020 2:54:30 AM)

No need to spend PPs to change their command.




spence -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/15/2020 3:12:16 AM)

quote:

No need to spend PPs to change their command.


Agree but it seems that if PM Curtin wanted the divisions to quit fighting for the Empire and return home to defend against a Japanese invasion of the homeland then its a more compelling reason to spend PPs to send them elsewhere than spending a dozen PPs to get rid of an incompetent 2nd Lt but the system as it stands makes you do both and it shouldn't.




RangerJoe -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/15/2020 6:17:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

No need to spend PPs to change their command.


Agree but it seems that if PM Curtin wanted the divisions to quit fighting for the Empire and return home to defend against a Japanese invasion of the homeland then its a more compelling reason to spend PPs to send them elsewhere than spending a dozen PPs to get rid of an incompetent 2nd Lt but the system as it stands makes you do both and it shouldn't.


But the incompetent butterbar, which is almost an automatic word combination,has political influence. Just think of the song "Fortunate Son."




dr.hal -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/15/2020 2:15:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae
Because you don’t have to worry about domestic politics or international relations in game, you can send them anywhere.

This encapsulates what I consider a major flaw in the game design, the fact that you can do things that would be "unthinkable" in the actual war. The way many players do a "Sir Robin" in the opening moves of the game is a great example. Of course this can be challenged or made more difficult by incorporation of a "house rule" but that can get cumbersome. The one factor included in the game to deal with this is the PP system. It would have been interesting if the developers had incorporated an "extra" PP penalty for doing certain things, such as withdrawing a unit from Singapore or Java before a certain date. Although this would certainly limit options (that a lot of us like to make the game deviate from this historical path) it would be more "realistic"! Of course the counter argument is that both players (unless you are playing the AI) come to the "table" with a lot of foreknowledge of the pitfalls of history and thus can exercise workarounds that otherwise would not have been known about.




Buckrock -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/15/2020 2:45:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

The Australian Prime Minister, Curtin, used much effort to have them shipped back to Australia as soon as possible after Tobruk, Greece and Crete. Churchill wanted to use them everywhere else.

Whatever they may have thought of Churchill's strategic choices in the Mediterranean Campaign, I don't think there was any pressure from the Australian government for the return of the AIF directly to Australian soil until later when Singapore had fallen and Java was finally being considered a lost cause. It was actually Churchill rather than Curtin who first raised (in Dec '41) the idea of sending AIF troops from the Middle East back to the Pacific, in this case to bolster the defence of Singapore, something the Australians firmly agreed with given the importance they placed on holding it against the Japanese.




RangerJoe -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/15/2020 3:29:48 PM)

But this is a game, not a simulation. That allows you to do what you want, such as the Japanese research into better aircraft while already knowing about them.




rustysi -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/15/2020 5:40:51 PM)

quote:

I also pull the Australians out of Singapore and send to PM where they are needed.


They're almost as vulnerable in PM as in Singers. Against a good Japanese opponent, of course.

quote:

Wow getting there is rough! I tried to get some supplies in but the magic Betty's just blow me away.


Oh, you mean the same Betty's that trashed PoW, and Repulse, are giving your supply convoys fits.[:'(]




alanschu -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/15/2020 8:45:24 PM)

I'm not familiar with the CBI acronym. What area is that referring to?




btd64 -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/15/2020 8:47:50 PM)

China Burma India....GP




Scott_USN -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/17/2020 2:47:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

Wow getting there is rough! I tried to get some supplies in but the magic Betty's just blow me away.


Oh, you mean the same Betty's that trashed PoW, and Repulse, are giving your supply convoys fits.[:'(]



Yep they just show up right when you think your aks sneaking in singular are almost there! :) Was worth a chance to get in 40k supply to Bataan. [&:]




GetAssista -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/17/2020 10:34:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

China Burma India....GP

Burma India Thailand China ..

and I've spent half an hour trying to come up with some plausible H area... Alas




btd64 -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/17/2020 10:51:50 AM)

I get it. I can't think of any H's either....GP




RangerJoe -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/17/2020 11:42:30 AM)

Home Islands? Horn Island.




jdsrae -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/17/2020 9:49:30 PM)

I’ve got it, use the small h from China: Ch




Ian R -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/18/2020 6:12:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

The Australian Prime Minister, Curtin, used much effort to have them shipped back to Australia as soon as possible after Tobruk, Greece and Crete. Churchill wanted to use them everywhere else.

Whatever they may have thought of Churchill's strategic choices in the Mediterranean Campaign, I don't think there was any pressure from the Australian government for the return of the AIF directly to Australian soil until later when Singapore had fallen and Java was finally being considered a lost cause. It was actually Churchill rather than Curtin who first raised (in Dec '41) the idea of sending AIF troops from the Middle East back to the Pacific, in this case to bolster the defence of Singapore, something the Australians firmly agreed with given the importance they placed on holding it against the Japanese.



Here is a more detailed chronological outline which accords with Buckrock's summary, except as to whose idea it really was -it was the professional soldiers', not the politicians'.

The first demand by Australia for the return of part of I Corps was communicated on 18 December 1941, but via Sturdee and Brooke-Popham. This was for an AIF division to go to Malaya from the Mid East. Brooke-Popham did not press his superiors for the division to be redeployed; Churchill was aware of these deliberations, but not their instigator. (David Horner, High Command, 1992 edn, page 144).

On Xmas day 1941 Churchill cabled Roosevelt and told him that despite Australia seeking urgent redeployment of troops to the Pacific area including Malaya, he would not remove them from Auchinleck's command area, because victory over Rommel was "within our grasp". (Horner, 146; Churchill Vol IV, page 4.) I Corps was all deployed in that area.

The Australian minister in Washington, Casey, was pushing for Malaya to be reinforced - and not just by Australian troops. Churchill was stubborn and belligerent on the topic: "You can't kick me around the room, I'm not kickable" said he. (Horner, 147, quoting cable communications on 26 December 41).

On 27 December 1941, after he was aware of Churchill's/the British attitude, PM Curtin had no qualms announcing in a newspaper article that Australia looked to America 'free of any pangs' of kinship with the United Kingdom. Churchill responded very bitterly to that, but it was a shift of his own making. (Horner, 147.)

The official Australian History differs on this topic; it follows the suggestion that someone in London came up with the idea of sending I corps to the NEI, rather than Malaya, on about 3 January. Reading between the lines this was something sought by Brooke-Popham and Wavell, with Sturdee advising the Aust. war cabinet to agree; an outgrowth of the 18 December cable, not a new idea.

Fast forward to mid-February 42, and the fall of Singapore on 15 February. On 14 February, Wavell, after consulting with Lavarack (GOC I Corps) who had been in Java for a couple of weeks, cabled London and said I corps should not go to Java - he advised to Burma, or Australia. On the 17th, Curtin demanded the return of I corps to Australia. In doing so, he acted on the advice of Sturdee, who did not agree with the Burma deployment. It was too late to re-direct Blackforce.

Gavin Long, in The Six Years War (1973), includes a lengthy footnote on page 138, which commences with the words:

"Reputable English historians have circulated the notion that, soon after Japan entered the war, The Australian Government began to demand the return of her divisions ..."

He adheres to the suggestion the idea to redeploy I corps came from "the British Government". That would be consistent with a military request (from Wavell) going up one side of the political pyramid and down the other for approval (on Sturdee's advice). Horner in 1982 had access to more recently released cabinet papers and cables, tending to reduce the murkiness, and perhaps straighten out a few things that crept into ex post facto memoirs.




Buckrock -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/18/2020 8:10:58 AM)

Nicely laid out. Thanks for that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R
On Xmas day 1941 Churchill cabled Roosevelt and told him that despite Australia seeking urgent redeployment of troops to the Pacific area including Malaya, he would not remove them from Auchinleck's command area, because victory over Rommel was "within our grasp". (Horner, 146; Churchill Vol IV, page 4.) I Corps was all deployed in that area.

According to his book "The Grand Alliance" (page 565), Churchill had minuted his CoS on Dec 15th to have the CoS Committee discuss with Auk the idea of moving an Australian division "from Palestine to Singapore". It would be interesting to know what then led to Churchill's (above) cable to Roosevelt on the 25th and its apparent change in thought regarding the possible use of the Australian divisions. Perhaps Auk had made his objections known by then. Or perhaps Churchill was simply telling Roosevelt a version of the facts that better suited the overall situation at that time.

Edit - Doesn't matter. I've stopped wondering.[:)]

It looks like the 25th Dec cable was one sent by Churchill to Curtin rather than to Roosevelt, which makes sense as Churchill and Roosevelt were together in Washington on that day. I looked at a copy of that cable (which contains the phrase "victory...within our grasp") and found what Churchill was stating could not be currently removed from Auchinleck's command was any additional airpower to reinforce the Far East rather than Australian ground troops. Churchill in that cable also repeats his previous suggestion to Curtin of considering the move of one Australian division from the ME to Singapore.

So it seems Churchill on the 25th hadn't changed his view regarding sending an Australian division(s) back to the Pacific or at least that was what he was saying to Curtin as opposed to Roosevelt.




Macclan5 -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/18/2020 3:07:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

No need to spend PPs to change their command.


+1

Although I would note that their HQ is in Australia and "if I recall correctly" is attached to a restricted command.

It is "very cost effective" to purchase out their Command unit and attach to SE Asia / ABDA / or some other non restricted British Indian command and from a "neat and tidy perspective" make them theater relevant.

Does not affect game play (much) but when they capture a base objective you get those nice little British Flags / or American as opposed to the glorious Blue Ensign with the Southern Constellation.





Ian R -> RE: Australian Divisions Aden (2/18/2020 5:34:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

It looks like the 25th Dec cable was one sent by Churchill to Curtin rather than to Roosevelt,


Re-reading it I agree. The reference Horner gives is Churchill's own quotation of the cable in Vol. 4.





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