Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (Full Version)

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Don Bowen -> Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (2/25/2020 3:26:33 PM)


Reference: Rikugun: Guide to Japanese Ground Forces 1937-1945: Volume 1: Tactical Organization of Imperial Japanese Army & Navy Ground Forces

According to this work the standard 190-man infantry company consisted of 3 platoons, each with 3 LMG squads and 1 Grenadier squad. Each had 13 men. There were no heavier weapons within the company.

In the Security Divisions the Company was reduced to 114 men by cutting the size of the squads to 7 men in the LMG squad and 8 in the grenadier squad.

This company appears to be the basis for most larger Japanese formations.

How should the 190-man company be represented in AE: 12 squads or 9. Same question for the 114-man security companies.

Also, the battalions of the security divisions included 5 infantry companies, an 8-gun MMG company and a 6 gun Infantry Gun Company (4 70mm and 2 75mm).

Looking specifically at the 58th Division, which is labeled a sub-Security Division, this adds up to an interesting Division.
The 114 man companies appear to be used in this division. Basic math would equate the 7 or 8 man squads to 13 man squads as 5 equivalent squads. 5 Squads per Company times 5 companies per battalion would yield as battalion of 25 Squads, 8 MMG, 6 Infantry Guns. 4 Battalions per Brigade gives 100 squads, 32 MMG, 24 guns and a division of 200 squads, 64 MMG, 48 Infantry guns.

The 52nd Brigade of the 58th Division (slot 3352) is listed with 108 Squads, 18 HMG, 12 70mm guns, 6 light AAMG, and 105 Support. Squads looks good enough but I'm having trouble with the support weapons. 32 MMG vs 18 HMG - I have no idea how to make this comparison. Is a MMG about half of a HMG. As for Infantry Guns, I would count 16 70mm and 8 75mm and am completely lost in reconciling this to 12 70mm.

I'd appreciate help and comments from anyone with knowledge Japanese tactical organizations and their representation in the OOB.



RangerJoe -> RE: Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (2/25/2020 3:51:03 PM)

There is very little functional difference between the use of the MMG and the HMG. The HMG might refer to the larger caliber bullets as in the M2, which was not used as a water cooled weapon whereas the M1919 series did have a water cooled version. When mounted on a tripod and with lots of ammo, it would be considered a MMG/HMG.



inqistor -> RE: Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (2/25/2020 4:57:59 PM)

In original WitP there was no Light Mortars as separate devices, and in WitPAE they are also not present. So your "Grenadier squad" (Knee Mortars) is included in Infantry Squads, this is why they are so large. So, Company consists only from 9 Rifle Squads.
Interestingly, there are also no 20mm AT Rifles present (or Boys AT Rifles), as separate devices, but they are not included in Squads AT power, or their number. That somehow seriously warped USMC, because they get additional firepower from extra support in Battalion, but somehow don't grow in number of men.

Technically, the main difference between HMG, and LMG is tripod (and maybe belt fed ammo). Maybe those MMGs suggests strip-fed MGs? Anyway in-game "HMG Section" consists of two HMG squads, so those are two HMGs, and their crew.

If you want to mess with numbers, remember that every Infantry Device adds 1 AV to unit. So, if you include Light Mortars, or AT Rifles as Devices, they will suddenly add to AV of whole unit.


This squads size reduction is hard to pinpoint, but there are widespread reports of such around 1944. There are reports, that in "Ocean Divisions" squads were divided in half, maybe without additional equipment. Also Shanghai SNLF was reported to have such change, and some units in China. Tarawa Battle Report, on the other hand, describes SNLF defensive positions, as always consisting of TWO mutually supporting LMGs, every of them supported with additional Knee Mortar. That would suggests, that SNLF had TWO LMGs in Squad, and had probably already 7 men separate sections.



Don Bowen -> RE: Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (2/25/2020 5:34:24 PM)


Thanks. Things are starting to make a lot more sense. Still confused over the infantry gun totals.

Looking at lower level organizations is very interesting but I can see that equating them to AE OOBs is quite an art.



rustysi -> RE: Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (2/25/2020 5:48:08 PM)

quote:

Looking at lower level organizations is very interesting but I can see that equating them to AE OOBs is quite an art.


Oh, now he gets it.

Kidding, Don.[:D]

Its why I try not to question a game's abstraction. Especially since I wasn't 'there in the first place'.

The 'Team' did good.[&o][&o][&o]




Alfred -> RE: Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (2/25/2020 5:54:55 PM)

Don Bowen,

You will be much better informed reading the posts from your fellow devs.  This thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2700375&mpage=1&key=IJA%2Cinfantry# has many posts from JWE and Kereguelen in particular who were primarily responsible for the Japanese OOB in AE.

Alfred



witpqs -> RE: Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (2/25/2020 5:56:12 PM)

Y'all on the Babes effort eventually reworked most or all of the land OOB too! [&o]



Don Bowen -> RE: Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (2/25/2020 7:18:19 PM)


Thanks to all those that responded. I can see that this is a subject well covered by folks more knowledgeable than me. I'll go with their good work.

I recommend the book from the first post as general reading.



PaxMondo -> RE: Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (2/26/2020 2:08:57 AM)

Don,

Just would add one thing, which I suspect JWE covered (but just in case). The IJ light and heavy MG were both 7.7mm for almost the entire war. The heavy wasn't all that heavy, just higher rate of fire. They had other designs, but none ever got produced in volume. The fundamental reason was the ammo: they were setup to produce the 7.7mm and had trouble getting anything else into production at high volumes. I've never read exactly why, but I suspect it all came back to tool steels. They were very short of hardeners the entire war so tool steel in particular was in very short supply. This is essentially the same MG that was used on the Oscar and other OJA fighters at the war start ...



RangerJoe -> RE: Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (2/26/2020 7:11:55 AM)

The US flew supplies over the Hump to China and flew back tungsten. The tungsten was used to make very hard steels, the tool steel is one of them.



PaxMondo -> RE: Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (2/27/2020 2:44:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The US flew supplies over the Hump to China and flew back tungsten. The tungsten was used to make very hard steels, the tool steel is one of them.

Yes, China has a fair number of good deposits. The IJ never prioritized these targets, even though their industry was starving for them. There is a fair amount of literature on this whole aspect of the war that is quite enlightening …



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (2/27/2020 5:34:18 PM)

slightly OT question:
does regular IJA infantry means Arisaka type 38 6.5×50mmSR equipped while Hvy infantry = Type 99 7.7×58mm equipped?



inqistor -> RE: Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (2/27/2020 10:21:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

slightly OT question:
does regular IJA infantry means Arisaka type 38 6.5×50mmSR equipped while Hvy infantry = Type 99 7.7×58mm equipped?

Regular squads are from Type B Division. They have 3 Grenade Dischargers in support section of platoon.

Heavy squads are from Type A Division (strenghtened). They have 4 Grenade Dischargers in support section of platoon (and extra runner in LMG squads).


Now, you can reverse-engineer strength of one Grenade Discharger used in calculations ;)


There is no in-game difference between 6.5, and 7.7 caliber. Actually both types were used during war, even in MGs. Carbines have the same value for all nations, unless they are semi-automatic.



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (2/27/2020 11:06:52 PM)

the mighty "knee mortar" [:)]

thanks a lot!



inqistor -> RE: Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (2/28/2020 8:52:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

the mighty "knee mortar" [:)]

thanks a lot!

Interestingly, I've read that Chinese also produced their own version of "knee mortar" (Type 27, 40909 pieces produced by Arsenal in Chunking). Since they were no longer producing any artillery in 1942, that should shows up somewhere in their OOB.



RangerJoe -> RE: Representation of Japanese Infantry Company in OOB (2/28/2020 11:23:33 PM)

If it good and it works, why not. Also, mortars are cheaper to produce than regular artillery.



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