quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Of course this is true and I'm sure most of the people that work in these places are trying to better their situation or if not for them, for their children. The problem is the world has changed overnight and the worker got the short end of things fairly quickly. The plants got shut down because people were getting sick. That's the right thing to do. It's what happened after that that is troubling.

As for crappy jobs? We have all had them. Ever see the guy on the road crew raking the hot asphalt out of the truck and onto the road on a blasting hot day? That was me one summer. Got great money for that......but my grades got a lot better the next semester. I don't mind a hard days work but I wasn't going to do manual labor for the rest of my life. Meat packing has a large percentage of 1st generation immigrants working those jobs. Also part of the America story. Last guy in gets the jobs nobody else wants to do, but you want better for the next generation.

Lols, John. My older brother had the same job. He said the only upside was once they came across a case of beer some underage drinkers stashed one day.[:)]

My first job was as a dishwasher. If you have just a little bit of drive and ambition you aren't stuck in that entry level job for long. I well remember my first holiday busboy earnings.

Back to meatpackers, 70% of teh beef consumed in the US is from UFCW plants. A pretty impressive number.

I used to teach a programming class and would get people from all over the world but made it to this country either by H1-B visa or by sheer force of will. These were smart, driven people, some from nasty parts of the world. That was one of my ice breaker questions. What is the worst job you ever had? Oh the things I heard. I suspect teaching those classes had more effect on me than the people I was teaching. The saddest answer, and one I got a few times, was "Worst job I ever had was no job". One answer stuck out. A guy from Trinidad. He was lucky to get a job at the Aluminum plant. This was in Trinidad. Hot as hell. His job? They gave him a broom and for 10 hours a day he was to stamp out the embers from the plant that might light the underbrush on fire surrounding the plant. Makes you realize you hit half the lottery just being born here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

In theory. In practice, quite different as there's someone desperate enough to work under poor conditions. As others have stated, it's not as if corporate interests were strongly interested in working conditions prior to all this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

I don't know, as an entry level job it teaches skills...I can see climbing the ladder to a grocery store butcher. In my neck of the woods that is a very good career for someone lacking a technical college degree. I know several grocery store butchers that went on to open their own small stores...I suspect that might be a bit suspect now though.

It is not for everyone, but as a boy growing up we were always cleaning fish to eat. That has probably changed over the years.

I genuinely struggle to imagine any serious career progression from something like a meat packing plant.

Granted, there will be some decent progression through the ranks so to speak, but let's not pretend that it is the norm for some guy on the factory floor will be CEO in twenty years time.

As far as the meat packing goes, one place where a lot of undocumented (illegal immigrant) workers were gone, the line for applicants stretched around the block. That was in the densely populated state of Iowa. That was just one situation, there are others.

As far as that kind of job, it is an incentive to better yourself to get a better job. Either in pay or working conditions. It does teach valuable job skills like being at a certain place, at a certain time, and be ready to work. Sadly, too many people don't have those skills.

I could post other things, but that could get difficult. PMs are welcomed to discuss things.

Yeah...about that. You've seen the current unemployment rate right? Where are these "better jobs"?

I think you've a narrow view on it - skills is absolutely a component, but there needs to be an opportunity to apply those skills. 78% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, so it's a challenge for, say, meat plant workers to get a new suit (and that assumes that the job is local and doesn't involve any transport costs).

The "bootstraps" narrative hasn't been working as many think it does for quite some time...

I think most people sleepwalk through life. By that I mean that, as they go about their daily affairs, opportunities arise and they take what is available instead of taking the time to plan a life. I submit that the primary word to focus on in the preamble is "pursuit" as it applies to pursuit of happiness.

quote:


What do you want to be when you grow up? A plumber makes good coin. So does a weilder. the IT field has paid well. In California, within the community college and universities, the coin has been good to. In the end it is encumbent upon each of us to identify what we want and pursue it. I worked two part-time jobs and went to school full time when I was young. It paid off for me. Now in my case I was single and w/o children. In the state of California anyone can go to community college pretty much for free for their first two years of school. I know that you can take wielding classes and knock out a certification in less than a year. I know that you can go to school for driving a tractor-trailer - 3-5k and you can be on the road in about 6 weeks.
There are so many options available for us here in America. I assume the same is try in Europe and other parts of the world.

quote:

I don't have problems with a bootstrap approach. Hell - join the Peace Corps or the military for a 3-year stint.

quote:

I think that state and federal governments are still hoping that once we step back from the "Shelter-at-home" thing, businesses will perk up, people will start news businesses to take advantage of the misfortunes of others in the restaurant and hospitality sectors, and life will be great again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe



I posted this before, but I believe Obvert was busy with other things.[:)]

Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

"Worst job I ever had was no job".

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe



I posted this before, but I believe Obvert was busy with other things.[:)]

Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

Maybe you could give a little context to why you're posing the link with me in mind?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Colorado changing the way they count deaths. I wonder how many other states will follow suit?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/colorado-lowers-coronavirus-death-count

I' sure you will see lots of changes in the way deaths are counted or if they are counted at all. Nebraska doesn't count the sick at the meat packing plants because it makes the rest of the state look bad. Not sure if they are counting the dead in those places. Florida only counts you dead from Corona if you are are a citizen of the State of Florida. If you are from out of state you don't count. Florida has hid lots of the nursing home deaths too. FOIA requests eventually get them but they have made a conscious effort to hide numbers. Every State seems to be not reporting nursing home deaths accurately. CDC official numbers are much lower than Johns Hopkins. They say it takes 3 weeks to tally the numbers but who knows? Once there are many truths who can tell any more?

I hate to ask this but I'm totally curious - is this a red state VS blue state thing in regards to reporting? Do you think some states are inflating their numbers?

I believe that the CDC requested all deaths, no matter the underlying cause(s), to be labelled a primary covid death if the person is tested or presumed to have covid. They are still free to assign co-moribidity causes.

Colorado's Governor is a Democrat.

In the best of times, the causes of death is wrong at least 33% of the time, going over 50% of the time in certain states.

Occam's razor I think holds primarily true and it is not a red/blue state thing.

Here is an article on it:

Just How Inflated Are Coronavirus Death Counts, Exactly?
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/tyler-o-neil/2020/05/15/just-how-inflated-are-coronavirus-death-counts-exactly-n394897

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

It is amazing to read how very little we know on the subject, and I am referring to the CDC study recently released.

quote:



There is a reason why the CDC was initially against facemasks for the general populace to begin with.

quote:



Not mentioned in any of these studies is the, for lack of a better phrase, placebo effect. Being powerless sucks, and if you are only told not to touch your face and wash your hands, well that is not very satisfying.

quote:


Wearing a facemask though is a huge public statement that is also inconvenient. You are in effect making a statement, and feel that you are being proactive and making a sacrifice to beat the virus. For a lot of people that feels really good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

In theory. In practice, quite different as there's someone desperate enough to work under poor conditions. As others have stated, it's not as if corporate interests were strongly interested in working conditions prior to all this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

I don't know, as an entry level job it teaches skills...I can see climbing the ladder to a grocery store butcher. In my neck of the woods that is a very good career for someone lacking a technical college degree. I know several grocery store butchers that went on to open their own small stores...I suspect that might be a bit suspect now though.

It is not for everyone, but as a boy growing up we were always cleaning fish to eat. That has probably changed over the years.

I genuinely struggle to imagine any serious career progression from something like a meat packing plant.

Granted, there will be some decent progression through the ranks so to speak, but let's not pretend that it is the norm for some guy on the factory floor will be CEO in twenty years time.

As far as the meat packing goes, one place where a lot of undocumented (illegal immigrant) workers were gone, the line for applicants stretched around the block. That was in the densely populated state of Iowa. That was just one situation, there are others.

As far as that kind of job, it is an incentive to better yourself to get a better job. Either in pay or working conditions. It does teach valuable job skills like being at a certain place, at a certain time, and be ready to work. Sadly, too many people don't have those skills.

I could post other things, but that could get difficult. PMs are welcomed to discuss things.

Yeah...about that. You've seen the current unemployment rate right? Where are these "better jobs"?

I think you've a narrow view on it - skills is absolutely a component, but there needs to be an opportunity to apply those skills. 78% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, so it's a challenge for, say, meat plant workers to get a new suit (and that assumes that the job is local and doesn't involve any transport costs).

The "bootstraps" narrative hasn't been working as many think it does for quite some time...

I think most people sleepwalk through life. By that I mean that, as they go about their daily affairs, opportunities arise and they take what is available instead of taking the time to plan a life. I submit that the primary word to focus on in the preamble is "pursuit" as it applies to pursuit of happiness.

I see where you're coming from, but I think being able to "plan" life is a luxury that comparatively few people are genuinely afforded. You get dealt the hand you play when you're born, and that then feeds in to anything else that follows on.

quote:


What do you want to be when you grow up? A plumber makes good coin. So does a weilder. the IT field has paid well. In California, within the community college and universities, the coin has been good to. In the end it is encumbent upon each of us to identify what we want and pursue it. I worked two part-time jobs and went to school full time when I was young. It paid off for me. Now in my case I was single and w/o children. In the state of California anyone can go to community college pretty much for free for their first two years of school. I know that you can take wielding classes and knock out a certification in less than a year. I know that you can go to school for driving a tractor-trailer - 3-5k and you can be on the road in about 6 weeks.
There are so many options available for us here in America. I assume the same is try in Europe and other parts of the world.

Of course, the options are there.

What was interesting from the PNAS (what a truly unfortunate acronym...) paper was the fact that the inequalities in social mobility have really been thrown in the spotlight in recent years in the US.

Plus, as the paper states, the notion of opportunity clashes quite harshly with the evidence that your socio-economic outcomes reflect your socio-economic origins...

quote:

I don't have problems with a bootstrap approach. Hell - join the Peace Corps or the military for a 3-year stint.

I don't think anyone does - the problem is the evidence that suggests it's not an approach that's working as people think it should.

FWIW, having socio-economic progression driven by a term of service in either an organisation like the Peace Corps or the military reeks of Robert Heinlein - not quite sure I'd approve.

quote:

I think that state and federal governments are still hoping that once we step back from the "Shelter-at-home" thing, businesses will perk up, people will start news businesses to take advantage of the misfortunes of others in the restaurant and hospitality sectors, and life will be great again.

There certainly will be keen entrepreneurs there to exploit a very fluid situation in a quick manner (eg converting closed restaurants to takeaway eating, adapting to physical distancing, etc), but I think it will not make up for what is a gutted sector. Given how much income is driven by foot-traffic and wider events (theatre, concerts etc), it doesn't look good...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe



I posted this before, but I believe Obvert was busy with other things.[:)]

Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

Maybe you could give a little context to why you're posing the link with me in mind?

Because it talks about several factors, two of which (masks, droplets) you might find relevant and interesting, and that you probably missed the original post because you were having a baby.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yes, that's true. All leading indicators (mortality, new cases, hospitalizations, etc.) are declining in Georgia. I'm worried (wary) about the wheels coming off, but man things seem very promising.

On a separate note, while returning to work an hour ago, a national radio talk show interview between two "experts" caught my ear when one said, "New York is not Georgia." They were making the same point made here earlier today - that the two jurisdictions, what they're dealing with and how they need to deal with it, are different. It's eerie how many times we've had discussion in here and the same thought/data shortly afterwards popped up in the news or talk shows, etc. (It's eerie because I don't have television, don't subscribe to newspapers, and only erratically hear radio news. The thoughts I share here are mostly self-generated, based on my experience, what I learn from you all, and the sources you've pointed me to.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

We need more testing.

I can't figure out the testing reasoning, maybe somebody here can help. It seems that in this area [Maryland, USA] you only get tested if you are privileged [Governor, sports figure] or if you are sick and your doctor gives you permission to get tested. The reports are that folks can carry this virus and not display any symptoms. Not always, but sometimes. Therefore, it would seem a good idea to expand this limited testing, but that would mean all of us lining up at a test station every morning on our way to work, and that's not practical.

What seems reasonable is to have a home self-test, something we can buy over-the-counter, or pick up at a Free Gov'ment Kiosk, say 20 to a box or some such. Then we can all test ourselves at reasonable intervals. Otherwise there is a large percentage of carriers that are not detected until it is too late. However, because this virus cloaks itself in material common in humans [glucose and something else that slips me at this moment] so far the tests have resulted in a high percentage of false results. This makes home testing kits not feasible.

So my brain keeps running around in circles on this issue. By the way, the flu season generally fizzles out by this time of year. Each day that passes makes it more interesting to see how this virus holds up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Wow. The thing is you need a serious human safety study with any COVID vaccine because of this whole cytokine storm business and the many apparent immune mediated side effects (like Kawasaki Disease in kids)

I think the recombinants or mRNA-based approaches (as opposed to spike glycoprotein or whole virus) approaches are less likely to result in such nasty side effects, don't you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

In theory. In practice, quite different as there's someone desperate enough to work under poor conditions. As others have stated, it's not as if corporate interests were strongly interested in working conditions prior to all this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

I don't know, as an entry level job it teaches skills...I can see climbing the ladder to a grocery store butcher. In my neck of the woods that is a very good career for someone lacking a technical college degree. I know several grocery store butchers that went on to open their own small stores...I suspect that might be a bit suspect now though.

It is not for everyone, but as a boy growing up we were always cleaning fish to eat. That has probably changed over the years.

I genuinely struggle to imagine any serious career progression from something like a meat packing plant.

Granted, there will be some decent progression through the ranks so to speak, but let's not pretend that it is the norm for some guy on the factory floor will be CEO in twenty years time.

As far as the meat packing goes, one place where a lot of undocumented (illegal immigrant) workers were gone, the line for applicants stretched around the block. That was in the densely populated state of Iowa. That was just one situation, there are others.

As far as that kind of job, it is an incentive to better yourself to get a better job. Either in pay or working conditions. It does teach valuable job skills like being at a certain place, at a certain time, and be ready to work. Sadly, too many people don't have those skills.

I could post other things, but that could get difficult. PMs are welcomed to discuss things.

Yeah...about that. You've seen the current unemployment rate right? Where are these "better jobs"?

I think you've a narrow view on it - skills is absolutely a component, but there needs to be opportunity to apply those skills. 78% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, so it's a challenge for, say, meat plant workers to get a new suit (and that assumes that the job is local and doesn't involve any transport costs).

The "bootstraps" narrative hasn't been working as many think it does for quite some time...

Well then, since the economies are not going to get better, quit letting in the immigrants. Especially since so many are going to decide to retire early, there won't be any job openings. Nope, none at all.

There are places that accept donated clothing for job seekers.

I read where a lot of employers would rather hire someone who had a job that was beneath their skills when there weren't better jobs available instead of sitting at home.

As far as people living paycheck to paycheck, is that because they have a house payment, a car payment, a truck payment, a boat payment, an ATV payment and a snowmobile payment? Maybe even more than one ATV and/or snowmobile that they are paying on?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I posted this before, but I believe Obvert was busy with other things.[:)]

Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

Maybe you could give a little context to why you're posing the link with me in mind?

Because it talks about several factors, two of which (masks, droplets) you might find relevant and interesting, and that you probably missed the original post because you were having a baby.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Total Covid-19 cases per 100k residents, at county level - stolen from elsewhere on the internet.

[image]https://i.redd.it/vy7y44mhf0z41.png[/image]

Some real interesting insights from this.

Florida still seems to be doing fairly well, but what worries me is the string of black across the Midwest...

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe



The image did not show up for me. I can't get to https://i.redd.it/vy7y44mhf0z41.png either.

But I can imagine that the black is the high number of cases at the meat packing plants. Those pose unique situations that have been commented on before.

I can imagine that the food processing plants may have similar problems. Maybe not as bad, but the harvesting work is done by hand, then the fruits and vegetables have to be processed. The processing plants may end up being bad. The harvesting may not be so bad if precautions are taken on any bus rides but then the workers would be in the fields with less contact and more air movement plus the natural UV light.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Well, I just went to a store and I did not wear a mask. I saw no one wearing a mask either. As far as wearing a tight fitting mask, I have a furry face.

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

I'm just trying to say that pursuit is important - it's what America was built on. A belief that I can be or do anything with the gifts of mind and body that my Higher Power granted to me. I'm white. Are there additional hurdles for the non-white in America? My experience and observation say "Yes" to that question. Is it better to be a male than a female when it comes to most careers in America? Again I would say yes. But I've met a lot of men and women of all shapes, sizes, and colors. Those that climbed up to a status of middle-class and higher here in America, for the most part, have had a dream that they pursued.

quote:


In recent years, several studies have found that vertical intergenerational mobility is lower in the US than in some European countries.[3] US social mobility has either remained unchanged or decreased since the 1970s.[4][5][6][7] A study conducted by the Pew Charitable Trusts found that the bottom quintile is 57% likely to experience upward mobility and only 7% to experience downward mobility.[8]

A study published in 2008 showed that economic mobility in the U.S. increased from 1950 to 1980, but has declined sharply since 1980.[9]

A 2013 Brookings Institution study found income inequality was increasing and becoming more permanent, sharply reducing social mobility.[10]

A large academic study released in 2014 found US mobility overall has not changed appreciably in the last 25 years (for children born between 1971 and 1996), but a variety of up and down mobility changes were found in several different parts of the country. On average, American children entering the labor market today have the same chances of moving up in the income distribution (relative to their parents) as children born in the 1970s.[11][12]

However, because US income inequalities have increased substantially, the consequences of the "birth lottery"—the parents to whom a child is born—are larger today than in the past. US wealth is increasingly concentrated in the top 10% of American families, so children of the remaining 90% are more likely to be born at lower starting incomes today than the same children in the past. Even if they are equally mobile and climb the same distance up the US socioeconomic ladder as children born 25 years earlier, the bottom 90% of the ladder is worth less now, so they gain less income value from their climb, especially when compared to the top 10%.[11][12]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

I'm just trying to say that pursuit is important - it's what America was built on. A belief that I can be or do anything with the gifts of mind and body that my Higher Power granted to me. I'm white. Are there additional hurdles for the non-white in America? My experience and observation say "Yes" to that question. Is it better to be a male than a female when it comes to most careers in America? Again I would say yes. But I've met a lot of men and women of all shapes, sizes, and colors. Those that climbed up to a status of middle-class and higher here in America, for the most part, have had a dream that they pursued.

Working for something is important, but socioeconomic mobility in the US is much lower than is commonly mythologized - especially in modern times.

The wiki page on this actually has quite a bit of information with several citations. Synopsis: there is some bad news and some neutral news, with basically only 1 piece of news that could be called vaguely good (the part I underlined in the quote below).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States

quote:


In recent years, several studies have found that vertical intergenerational mobility is lower in the US than in some European countries.[3] US social mobility has either remained unchanged or decreased since the 1970s.[4][5][6][7] A study conducted by the Pew Charitable Trusts found that the bottom quintile is 57% likely to experience upward mobility and only 7% to experience downward mobility.[8]

A study published in 2008 showed that economic mobility in the U.S. increased from 1950 to 1980, but has declined sharply since 1980.[9]

A 2013 Brookings Institution study found income inequality was increasing and becoming more permanent, sharply reducing social mobility.[10]

A large academic study released in 2014 found US mobility overall has not changed appreciably in the last 25 years (for children born between 1971 and 1996), but a variety of up and down mobility changes were found in several different parts of the country. On average, American children entering the labor market today have the same chances of moving up in the income distribution (relative to their parents) as children born in the 1970s.[11][12]

However, because US income inequalities have increased substantially, the consequences of the "birth lottery"—the parents to whom a child is born—are larger today than in the past. US wealth is increasingly concentrated in the top 10% of American families, so children of the remaining 90% are more likely to be born at lower starting incomes today than the same children in the past. Even if they are equally mobile and climb the same distance up the US socioeconomic ladder as children born 25 years earlier, the bottom 90% of the ladder is worth less now, so they gain less income value from their climb, especially when compared to the top 10%.[11][12]

And that's just from the header... there's more, and I've could find plenty of other citations as well.

Again, that's not to say that it's impossible - just that it's harder than in the past, and also to point out that the mythologizing of "you can do anything if you only just work hard enough" as the common narrative sold to the American worker/workplace is nowhere close to the actual truth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
For example, the metric most widely used right now to determine whether a state has "crested" in its current COVID-19 epidemic is not any COVID-19 number. Instead they use the UW numbers where the researchers are tracking ICU beds occupied within each state against the total number in that state. As that number tapers off the inference is that COVID-19 has as well. Hospital bed occupancy is easily and regularly tracked data.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe



I posted this before, but I believe Obvert was busy with other things.[:)]

Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

Maybe you could give a little context to why you're posing the link with me in mind?

Because it talks about several factors, two of which (masks, droplets) you might find relevant and interesting, and that you probably missed the original post because you were having a baby.

I've seen several studies previous to the one you posted which analysed in laboratory settings how facemarks can reduce the amount of a virus that is transmitted to the air as both droplets and aerosols.

The CDC also only mentioned previous studies, mostly environmental in nature (not in a lab) which studies influenza types, not Coronavirus. The study you linked before studied both, and found conclusive evidence of reduction in virus transmission when wearing a surgical mask.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

I'm just trying to say that pursuit is important - it's what America was built on. A belief that I can be or do anything with the gifts of mind and body that my Higher Power granted to me. I'm white. Are there additional hurdles for the non-white in America? My experience and observation say "Yes" to that question. Is it better to be a male than a female when it comes to most careers in America? Again I would say yes. But I've met a lot of men and women of all shapes, sizes, and colors. Those that climbed up to a status of middle-class and higher here in America, for the most part, have had a dream that they pursued.

Working for something is important, but socioeconomic mobility in the US is much lower than is commonly mythologized - especially in modern times.

The wiki page on this actually has quite a bit of information with several citations. Synopsis: there is some bad news and some neutral news, with basically only 1 piece of news that could be called vaguely good (the part I underlined in the quote below).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States

quote:


In recent years, several studies have found that vertical intergenerational mobility is lower in the US than in some European countries.[3] US social mobility has either remained unchanged or decreased since the 1970s.[4][5][6][7] A study conducted by the Pew Charitable Trusts found that the bottom quintile is 57% likely to experience upward mobility and only 7% to experience downward mobility.[8]

A study published in 2008 showed that economic mobility in the U.S. increased from 1950 to 1980, but has declined sharply since 1980.[9]

A 2013 Brookings Institution study found income inequality was increasing and becoming more permanent, sharply reducing social mobility.[10]

A large academic study released in 2014 found US mobility overall has not changed appreciably in the last 25 years (for children born between 1971 and 1996), but a variety of up and down mobility changes were found in several different parts of the country. On average, American children entering the labor market today have the same chances of moving up in the income distribution (relative to their parents) as children born in the 1970s.[11][12]

However, because US income inequalities have increased substantially, the consequences of the "birth lottery"—the parents to whom a child is born—are larger today than in the past. US wealth is increasingly concentrated in the top 10% of American families, so children of the remaining 90% are more likely to be born at lower starting incomes today than the same children in the past. Even if they are equally mobile and climb the same distance up the US socioeconomic ladder as children born 25 years earlier, the bottom 90% of the ladder is worth less now, so they gain less income value from their climb, especially when compared to the top 10%.[11][12]

And that's just from the header... there's more, and I've could find plenty of other citations as well.

Again, that's not to say that it's impossible - just that it's harder than in the past, and also to point out that the mythologizing of "you can do anything if you only just work hard enough" as the common narrative sold to the American worker/workplace is nowhere close to the actual truth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

I'm just trying to say that pursuit is important - it's what America was built on. A belief that I can be or do anything with the gifts of mind and body that my Higher Power granted to me. I'm white. Are there additional hurdles for the non-white in America? My experience and observation say "Yes" to that question. Is it better to be a male than a female when it comes to most careers in America? Again I would say yes. But I've met a lot of men and women of all shapes, sizes, and colors. Those that climbed up to a status of middle-class and higher here in America, for the most part, have had a dream that they pursued.

Working for something is important, but socioeconomic mobility in the US is much lower than is commonly mythologized - especially in modern times.

The wiki page on this actually has quite a bit of information with several citations. Synopsis: there is some bad news and some neutral news, with basically only 1 piece of news that could be called vaguely good (the part I underlined in the quote below).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States

quote:


In recent years, several studies have found that vertical intergenerational mobility is lower in the US than in some European countries.[3] US social mobility has either remained unchanged or decreased since the 1970s.[4][5][6][7] A study conducted by the Pew Charitable Trusts found that the bottom quintile is 57% likely to experience upward mobility and only 7% to experience downward mobility.[8]

A study published in 2008 showed that economic mobility in the U.S. increased from 1950 to 1980, but has declined sharply since 1980.[9]

A 2013 Brookings Institution study found income inequality was increasing and becoming more permanent, sharply reducing social mobility.[10]

A large academic study released in 2014 found US mobility overall has not changed appreciably in the last 25 years (for children born between 1971 and 1996), but a variety of up and down mobility changes were found in several different parts of the country. On average, American children entering the labor market today have the same chances of moving up in the income distribution (relative to their parents) as children born in the 1970s.[11][12]

However, because US income inequalities have increased substantially, the consequences of the "birth lottery"—the parents to whom a child is born—are larger today than in the past. US wealth is increasingly concentrated in the top 10% of American families, so children of the remaining 90% are more likely to be born at lower starting incomes today than the same children in the past. Even if they are equally mobile and climb the same distance up the US socioeconomic ladder as children born 25 years earlier, the bottom 90% of the ladder is worth less now, so they gain less income value from their climb, especially when compared to the top 10%.[11][12]

And that's just from the header... there's more, and I've could find plenty of other citations as well.

Again, that's not to say that it's impossible - just that it's harder than in the past, and also to point out that the mythologizing of "you can do anything if you only just work hard enough" as the common narrative sold to the American worker/workplace is nowhere close to the actual truth.

There is also the obvious follow-on that if everyone did try to work multiple jobs to get ahead and had those same dreams and goals, some would still lose out because that would be the normal, and someone still has to do the s*** work.

The American Dream simply cannot work for everyone. When that realisation seeps in somewhere between age 15 and 35, it can create a lot of frustration, anger, despair. Is it possibly a coincidence that as social mobility reduces drug use and related deaths from overdoses increase?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/611012/number-of-drug-overdose-deaths-in-the-us-by-gender/

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/masks-covid-19-infections-would-plummet-new-study-says

If you’re wondering whether to wear or not to wear, consider this. The day before yesterday, 21 people died of COVID-19 in Japan. In the United States, 2,129 died. Comparing overall death rates for the two countries offers an even starker point of comparison with total U.S. deaths now at a staggering 76,032 and Japan’s fatalities at 577. Japan’s population is about 38% of the U.S., but even adjusting for population, the Japanese death rate is a mere 2% of America’s.

This comes despite Japan having no lockdown, still-active subways, and many businesses that have remained open—reportedly including karaoke bars, although Japanese citizens and industries are practicing social distancing where they can. Nor have the Japanese broadly embraced contact tracing, a practice by which health authorities identify someone who has been infected and then attempt to identify everyone that person might have interacted with—and potentially infected. So how does Japan do it?

“One reason is that nearly everyone there is wearing a mask,”

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

In theory. In practice, quite different as there's someone desperate enough to work under poor conditions. As others have stated, it's not as if corporate interests were strongly interested in working conditions prior to all this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

In theory. In practice, quite different as there's someone desperate enough to work under poor conditions. As others have stated, it's not as if corporate interests were strongly interested in working conditions prior to all this...

No, in this case there IS a shortage of workers willing to take the job for the pay offered, given the risk. That is exactly why they are "euthanizing" millions of chickens. To fill those jobs you would have to take an idle Disney cruise ship down to Honduras or Guatemala, promise tall blonde dancer girls and salsa picante on the cruise AND a green card and you could fill the thing up...and then after 3 or 4 weeks, they would all have $15 an hour jobs at Pollo Loco