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Paul Vebber -> (5/29/2000 12:20:00 AM)

We WANT you report the bugs :-) That way we can fix them...Don't report 'em. we can't fix em! Well done!



Mac_MatrixForum -> (5/29/2000 1:46:00 AM)

Ok, a couple... -When unit is entrenched (or dug-in?) and moves... undo does not restore the entrenched status. -When generating battles with custom maps... deployment area is sometimes bugged. -Panthers are cheap... ok well maby not bug :-) -Deleting HQ when buying units... Keep up the good work! ------------------ Markku "Mac" Rontu "Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Sheridan in B5



Voriax -> (5/29/2000 2:24:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: We WANT you report the bugs :-) That way we can fix them...Don't report 'em. we can't fix em! Well done!
And here I was just trying to soften the shock you'll probably suffer each time you check the forum and find the HUGE PILE [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] of bugs they've unearthed AGAIN! Voriax



Jakob Jung -> (5/29/2000 7:35:00 AM)

I noticed a strange thing about ammo dumps and ammo trucks. they supply artillery all right. But when my tanks ran out of ammo, and I drove them to the dump, they did not receive any ammo, even if I left them there several turns. (this happened in my german long campaign both in poland and france)



Paul Vebber -> (5/29/2000 9:40:00 AM)

Hmmm - How much suppression did they have. I don't think they will reload is still "buttoned"... Could you send me a save?



Dean Robb -> (5/29/2000 11:16:00 AM)

Bugz - 1. Sometimes (and I've yet to find a recurring factor) ATGs will "double-tap"; fire two rounds in one shot. Or so it seems as there are two hit SFX and two reports in the windows. 2. Undo-ing a movement doesn't restore shots. REALLY hurts mortars and MGs. 3. Whyfor do I see messages like "Pen 120/Armor 10" and not kill the tank? I'd think it penetrated, from the message... Suggestionz: 1. Put some sort of "front" designator on rifle bunkers. Can't tell from looking where the firing slits are...have to approach and see from what direction you're not fired on. Maybe a gun barrel sticking out? 2. Ever notice how a rifle platoon often looks like it's armed with spears? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] 3. How hard would it be to build an autosave into the game? [This message has been edited by Dean Robb (edited 05-29-2000).]



Greybear -> (5/30/2000 6:59:00 PM)

Paul, I started a long campaign Br v Ge, 9/39 , 1200 point limit (2800 pts is way too many units). 4 th battle: is it a "Bug" or a "Feature" that all my support units keep being added to my core? Also have seen the rebuild bug: two chances to rebuild. One more thing the AI has yet to buy any armor.



Paul Vebber -> (5/30/2000 7:50:00 PM)

Penetration does not mean that it did anything. Coulda gone in ione side and out the other... The damage routine considers warhead size, "excess" penetration, target sizew and target survivability to compute a "damage chance that is rolled for each system and crew member based on the face hit. A round that just noses through the armor might get lucky and send a hot splinter into the ammo, or a round could "tak off a corner" but not really do anything inside. Seperate from that, whenever a penetration of damaging hit ocurrs, the crew takes a morale check, and might bail out. So several things are possible, A penetration could do nothing and sinply add a few points of suppression (ie the penetration occured somewhere and the crew "didn't know" it was other than a solid hit). Such a "blind penetration" shot might spook the crew into thinking the tank is more damaged than it is and they bail and run from an otherwise perfectly good tank (with hole), or the round can do damage and/or kill crew member leading to the crew sticking, but requiring a couple rally's, or the crew could bail and run form teh damaged tank. Or course sometimes they do just blow up!



Charles22 -> (5/30/2000 8:45:00 PM)

On the matter of Jakob reporting that tanks weren't getting mroe ammo for ammo trucks/depots, I have this to report. Actually, I don't think I've ever attempted resupplying a 'tank', but I have resupplied guns with success. I have had one instance of one of the Gerry AA halftracks (the 20mm AA one) which refused to be resupplied. I tried to resupply that entire section and it 'seemed' as though one HT resupplied and the other did not, though they were both in the same conditions, although one had finished resupply when the other was attempted. "IF" one unit was supplied and the other was not, that would beg the question as to whether or not the ammo trucks have a limit to the number of rounds they can supply.



Paul Vebber -> (5/30/2000 9:29:00 PM)

The Beta testers report that ammo trucks do indeed resupply tanks. I am looking into resupply limits on "customers served" at once...



Arralen -> (5/31/2000 12:01:00 PM)

I don't know it had been mentioned before ... I played the Chindits-Scenario last night and found that a glider just passes over the complete map and vanishes like an "normal aircraft" when damaged by small arms fire. The glider than even lists as available unit in the unit list screen ! I think it should take casualties to crew and "load", or even crash ... but shurely not soar away in the next termal ... .besides, a great scenario ... would rate it "four stars" at least .. ah, WILL rate it ... greetings, Arralen



JR -> (5/31/2000 2:33:00 PM)

The "bail out of your tank" command seems to be of limited usefulnes, because the crew appears with no movement left. Thus they start the next turn i the same hex as their tank, and as they are good, dedicated tankers they reenter the tank. Good, dedicated but undiciplined tankers, because I, as their commander, wanted them to leave the tank! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img] JR



Charles22 -> (5/31/2000 9:09:00 PM)

JR: DO you know that for sure? In other words, ahve you ever had the crew bail when the tank had most or all of it's movement remaining? I've bailed a few times, and I don't recall if I could move the crew out immediately or not, it seems as though I have though. I have the habit of only bailing them after they're VERY seriously damaged, and if the fire it's drawing far outweighs the potential of the armor taking another hit and surviving. Often when that sort of criteria is used, it may have taken so much suppression from the one or two rounds that hit it in the player turn, that there's no way to shoot, and the tank cannot move either. I think that's often the criteria we use, if the tank cannot move out of dangerous fire, we want to bail, but if the tank cannot move for such great suppression, then how could the crew? Perhaps we need to make up our minds quciker on bailing, if we're so afraid that the enemy would wipe out the crew, still, I would like to know for sure whether or not the crew can move afterwards, under 'some' circumstances.



Desert Fox -> (5/31/2000 9:15:00 PM)

JR is right, a crew getting out of an immobilized tank can not move. Several occasions I have had a vehicle immobilized and I want to get the crew out of the tank. When I do, they cannot move, regardless of suppression. It also seems like when the crew bails, they take the move points of the tank with them. I have had crews bail out and have 14 move points, others have 2 or 3. Very inconsistant, and probably a bug. And of course, because they cannot move, they jump right back into the tank on the next turn, which ultimately makes it pretty useless to bail out of an immobilized tank.



Larry Holt -> (5/31/2000 11:12:00 PM)

One thing to help crew survivability after bail out is to fire the smoke dischargers (if availible) before bailing. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one.



edgar -> (5/31/2000 11:33:00 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Desert Fox: [B]JR is right, a crew getting out of an immobilized tank can not move. (snip) Here's a little tip: I only had one occasion in which I had to let the crew of tank bail out. They could not move but they were able to pop some smoke, which supplied some cover.



Desert Fox -> (5/31/2000 11:49:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by edgar: Here's a little tip: I only had one occasion in which I had to let the crew of tank bail out. They could not move but they were able to pop some smoke, which supplied some cover.
Thats nice, but they cannot move, which means they are going to get right back in the tank on the next turn. Then they have to get out again, and likely will still not be able to move. Smoke really only helps if you can manage to move a halftrack or jeep forward to rescue the crew. I tend to bail out quite a bit. Not just because my tanks blow up, but because its easier to capture flags on buildings this way. Most people bring infantry forward, but not me, I use tanks to punch through, and if the infantry is not mounted, they stay behind and guard flags I already took. Bailing out comes in handy when you have secured an area, but don't want to immobilize a tank to get that flag stuck on a building. Just bail out, move the crew to the objective, then back again and move to the next area after they get back in the vehicle.



Charles22 -> (6/1/2000 12:24:00 AM)

I'm sorry, I didn't realize the topic was "immobilized tank". I thought the train of thought was that crews couldn't move out of the hex regardless of the state of the tank once bailing. I actually don't know why anyone would want to bail the tank, if it only got immobilised. Certainly despite one's tactics, there must be room for remaining with the tank? I've always kept the crew with the tank, if it was "only" immobilised, and it proved very useful. My sole reason for bailing is the very imminent destruction of the tank, or should it run out of ammunition and is immobilised. Even if one feels that it's better always to abandon immobilised tanks, should it not be taking any dangerous AT fire, it would probably be better to stay with it, till another unit can pull up and then carry the crew away.



Paul Vebber -> (6/1/2000 1:58:00 AM)

We will look at a fix before we get to the "shoot your own troops with the Zkey to get them to retreat" stage :-)



Charles22 -> (6/1/2000 2:56:00 AM)

Paul: Yeah, right. Perhaps to get around the "shoot your own troops" idea, you could program the Russians to mandatorily have death squads to deal with deserters. It makes me wonder how much of the Russian death toll to the Germans, was actually caused by such squads. Here's another twist. Why not have those satchel charge dogs the Russians used too, so that they could realistically run underneath just as many Russian tanks, as they did German tanks? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Just think, this could give the game more sounds. For instance, the Russians would have to deal with mutts that wouldn't quit barking, keeping them up all night (which is probably the reason they came up with the idea of strapping satchel charges to them), decreasing their morale, and also maybe you could hear the mutt panting as the Russian player tried to direct it towards a Gerry tank. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] This could be countered by the German player having field kitchen units, throwing meat towards the Russian tanks, when the dogs would appear. [This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited 05-31-2000).]



panda124c -> (6/8/2000 5:14:00 AM)

I'm having a simular problem with my American's vs Germans in the Campain. After the last turn in the first game of the campain I am taken directly to choosing support units for the next sceinario no chance to repair units. Also the non-core units are still listed and using human deployment all the units are in the same position as the last turn of the previous game, including across the boundry lines. Is the new patch going to fix this????
quote:

Originally posted by Greybear: Paul, I started a long campaign Br v Ge, 9/39 , 1200 point limit (2800 pts is way too many units). 4 th battle: is it a "Bug" or a "Feature" that all my support units keep being added to my core? Also have seen the rebuild bug: two chances to rebuild. One more thing the AI has yet to buy any armor.
[This message has been edited by pbear (edited 06-07-2000).]



Wittmann44 -> (6/8/2000 10:25:00 AM)

I have had many bugs. First, in a campaign game, ammo doesn't reload. Damage of some types is repaired, like suspension damage, but gun optics isn't repaired. The crew bug that others have discussed. Assigning any unit to the A0 unit kills the subordinate. Pressing the mission button in the purchase screen hangs the game. First battle in a campaign is frequently a spitting match; I get the tanks that can't shoot straight. Same crews (the ones that live) do much better in the following battles. I find that the Russian tanks hit mine with low percentage shots (10-15%) more frequently than they should (about one of eight should be the average, one in three is the actual) while my tanks miss with medium to high percentage shots (45-65%) which should hit half the time, but miss more often than hit. The AI is much different than before; sometimes this is a welcome challenge (as in Russian tanks move for flank shots rather than frontal) but this sometimes leads to ridiculous results (as in a night+rain low visibility engagment where the lead tanks engage from the front, and the following ones try to surround my forward tank, even to the point of opening their flanks to easy shots from my supporting tanks). The AI is almost too aggressive. One battle was more like a mass tank mugging than a attack. The Russian went to the nearest objective hex, then ganged up on the first unit to fire at him, like an army of mindless Terminators looking for Sarah Connor! Oh! Killed that one, on to the next! Sarah Connnor? Boom! Boom! Boom! The computer didn't molest any of my other forces, even those that were slipping past his armored spearhead and shooting him in the back. I was able to pick on his flanks and attrit his attack, but he didn't slow his pace of advance until he ran out of armor. The AI doesn't recognize fire sacks or kill zones. The AI doesn't use suppressive fire or bounding overwatch. It recognizes shadows and defiles, but doesn't use them right. It pushes tanks by the bunch into a defile; then I hit them with concentrated fire as they emerge, like Butch and Sundance coming out of a Bolivian bank. The computer should recognize that it should withdraw, even as few as a hex or two, and then emerge when sufficient forces are there to suppress my waiting units.



Wittmann44 -> (6/8/2000 10:45:00 AM)

Oh, before its said that all I do is complain, I want to say: I love this game!



Paul Vebber -> (6/8/2000 11:07:00 AM)

The bugs are mostly fixed in the patch. As to teh AHHHnold like AI, try PBEM? The AI is better...in 7 or 10 years we might have AI that can do combined Arms and recognize fire sacks and that, but if i figure out how to do that, I will sell it to the Army and make big bucks :-)



Arralen -> (6/9/2000 4:33:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: The bugs are mostly fixed in the patch. As to teh AHHHnold like AI, try PBEM? The AI is better...in 7 or 10 years we might have AI that can do combined Arms and recognize fire sacks and that, but if i figure out how to do that, I will sell it to the Army and make big bucks :-)
Just my 0,02 EU of thoughts: Assign a "thread value" to each hex - just store the damage done to a unit in hex, and add it "virtually" to the movement costs emidiatly. This way a squad killed in a hex will make this hex cost 8..12 points more (or maybe put a divisor in ..), and the next unit will avoid this hex and go around it. Decrease the "thread value" each turn depending on situation: [list] * enemy units sighted with LOS to this hex * own units moving in adjacent hexes * enemy unit that killed own is subject to suppression fire [/list] Combined arms attack: If you can get the "move whole formation" to work in a sensible way, couldn't even the AI use this routines? Then you must only add some "move formation together"-routines, and you're there [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Ok ok I know it this reads much more easy than it is to code this, but I think this could be done .. No, my programming experience is restricted to some ancient basic dialects (8 bit !!) and Fortran (Unix, VMS), so I can't help with the actual coding [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Arralen



Dean Robb -> (6/9/2000 11:34:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Wittmann44: The computer didn't molest any of my other forces, even those that were slipping past his armored spearhead and shooting him in the back. I was able to pick on his flanks and attrit his attack, but he didn't slow his pace of advance until he ran out of armor.
I've noticed this, too. The AI doesn't honor the threat or respond properly to it. No attempts to outflank the human or bypass strongpoints to take them in the rear. No response to attacks into it's flank or rear. Unfortunately, the fix would take some SERIOUS code work so it's not likely to be changed any time soon.



Charles22 -> (6/10/2000 12:04:00 AM)

Dean: You just haven't seen it yet. I've had numerous flanking attempts that the enemy responded to, and in fact, on one occassion half his army had a fit and abandoned their entrenched positions, some falling back, a smaller amount advancing, and about half of the ones who moved DIRECTLY going after my Special OPS attack to one of his objecitve areas. That isn't to say that I haven't had flanks which haven't been responded to, but they have responded at least in some form at times, on more than one occassion. Perhaps the AI responds more immediately, when he has a defensive mission, and you threaten objectives. It does seem as though ALL of his responses to my flanks attmepts, have been when he was playing defensive.



Larry Holt -> (6/10/2000 12:21:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Wittmann44: ... The computer didn't molest any of my other forces, even those that were slipping past his armored spearhead and shooting him in the back. I was able to pick on his flanks and attrit his attack, but he didn't slow his pace of advance until he ran out of armor. ...
AFAIK there is only one AI set up while various nationalities have different combat doctrines. What you described would be very realistic for a Soviet or Japanese armored spearhead but unlikely for a US or British. I suppose that this is a limitation of the amount of programing and file sizes availible (not enough time or disc space for a "national style" AI module for each nation involved). ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.



Six-pk -> (6/10/2000 7:01:00 AM)

Here is a bug: (btw I didn't read this whole topic so I'm hopeing I'm not repeating a post) Your immobilized vehicle can turn if you right click on an enemy unit. It will face the unit clicked! Six [This message has been edited by Six-pk (edited 06-09-2000).]



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