T-80 thermals useless? (Full Version)

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Panta_slith -> T-80 thermals useless? (4/1/2020 7:41:40 PM)

I am playing with a friend the A Test of Wills scenario and found out that the T-80's thermal sights are unable to see under the rain beyond 500m, something that not prevents NATO units from firing and hitting their targets from several hexes of distance. Upon the first turn the WP units became just frozen targets, only the artillery can do some harm.
Are you sure that 89's Soviet thermals are that useless or is it just another bug?



HeinzBaby -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/2/2020 3:57:12 AM)

I believe T-80UM: with the new Buran thermal imaging sight replaced that of the Luna IR, entered service in the 1990's,
outside the Sim's timeline.

T80U (improved) is the latest Soviet MBT in game, entering service 1985. earlier models T80B and T80BV (reactive armour) are also in game.



CapnDarwin -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/2/2020 4:01:05 AM)

No thermals on the T-80s until 90-91 as HeinzBaby notes.[8D]



Panta_slith -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/2/2020 2:58:42 PM)

Yes, you are right, the unhappy Russians just have light amplifiers. Well, then that scenario is a no-go for the Russian player, it puts on the stage blind players against short sighted!



fluidwill matrix -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/2/2020 6:55:44 PM)

Well boo hoo.

T-80's in my experience are extremely hard to kill so swings and roundabouts.



fluidwill matrix -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/2/2020 6:56:36 PM)

And don't get me started on those damn missiles they fire



Panta_slith -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/2/2020 8:57:57 PM)

In the scenario I tried they were rather quick to die, I was decimated in one or two turns whilst my units stood still, like good heroes of the Motherland, without seeing a single enemy and dying too fast for the force's sake. After trying a few more scenarios with similar results I decided to edit them to avoid unnecessary advantages like bad weather (just one side fires beyond one hex), fighting against poorly trained and motivated units, because who wants to play space invaders as the target spaceships? IMO most scenarios of both FPG and GR are too unbalanced for H2H (the WP player just plays the target or is overwhelmed by superior forces), but with a little edition you can improve them a lot. BTW, the editor and some maps are really excellent!



fluidwill matrix -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/2/2020 9:55:01 PM)

My friends and I have been playing this game for nearly a decade now and we've had hours of pleasure as a result.

If I can make some gentle suggestions the system is nothing like the other games you play (nod to Command Ops) in this game your troops wont do what you want. Shortly after the beginning of the scenario you will feel the situation slipping out of your grasp. You will be responding to events but your troops will be moving TOO SLOW. They will sit there like morons and get shot to pieces.
Playing Warpac takes a whole change in outlook. Best concept I've come up with is imagine you're a giant robot. Nato has to cover the whole front, you can usually just pick a point and smash straight through with your big robot fist but usually you only get one shot at it and the bulk of your orders are issued at set up and most of them are assault orders. Pick first second and third objective -smash a regiment onto it and hold. Pick next objective - have next regiment hit it 10 mins later and so on. I like to pass follow on waves through my first lunge, fakes and faints accepted, though my buddies get good results smashing one bit of the line and 10-20 mins later smashing a seperate bit because the Rommel on the other side (me) is rushing to the first fire. As the Soviets you can have any bit of the map you want as long as you don't let Nato sit back under smoke and kill you, get up close and personal and never ever stop moving.
PM if you want a battle - I'll take WarPac and show you that having a shorter OODA cycle is kind of meaningless if you're dead.



Panta_slith -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/2/2020 10:42:16 PM)

Well, it seems reasonable, but on the practical side I have noticed that my OPFOR manual tactics don't work. I have played scenarios with WP having just T64s and BTRs against M1s and M2s with missiles and thermals, for not to say that frequrently my units were frozen on site.
And yes, I would like to play some of the scenarios I mentioned, so I could see what am I doing wrong. What about Test of Wills, for instance? I had problems with that particular scenario.



fluidwill matrix -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/2/2020 10:50:07 PM)

Sounds great, I'm Fluidwill (just, no matrix) on PBEM++ so set up a challenge and we can play. PM me the Pword or just put it here, I'm sure no-one will steal my spot, looking forward to it.



Panta_slith -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/2/2020 11:39:44 PM)

Good, but just please remind me how to play on Pbem++, if I ever played pbem++, it was a long time ago, when FPG was published. An I was (or still am, on Steam, but grew a dislike for it whilst playing Flight Simulator X, so I switched to Prepar3D and mainly forgot about it! I can make several turns a day now that we are like in an inmersed submarine because of the plague.



Rincon -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/3/2020 1:26:09 AM)

That's one the beauties in this game. The ability to modify as you see fit....at least at the database level.

I personally play with some adjustments on my own. Specially training and morale numbers...equipment and countermeasures quality.

Just as a curiosity, I did once a test and added thermals to the T-80U....man I actually reverted that back real quick, that machine was virtually unbeatable. No match for any other tank in game...it is actually one of the deadliest tanks in game, if not the deadliest, even without thermals. The only real advantage of NATO is to shoot first...

You can play with the specials column in the database as well. Pretty interesting.

Anyway, there is a way to proper play with WP with it's current conditions in game. Its It's different as of playing with the NATO side. Take your time to learn it and you will be able to beat NATO as well. Have fun above all at the end.

Cheers



Panta_slith -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/3/2020 4:33:36 PM)

Rincon,
It is very interesting what you say. Where do you exactly find the data related to any unit in particular? I tried the editor but such things as equipment, like thermals, isn't available there. I am interested in the order delay times each side has in particular, IMO the time for WP to follow orders WP has been overestimated at the point to make them irresponsive for long periods. Nobody wants to play a side where you give orders and wait for several turns watching the fate of your units whilst your opponent gets all the fun, being able to react and give orders that will be obeyed each time!



Rincon -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/3/2020 11:18:07 PM)

Panta-slith, you can adjust a lot as far as the database file permits. See more details the the modding guide 4 National Database, in the document game folder:

C:\Steam\steamapps\common\Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm\Documents (if you are a steam user).


"Where do you exactly find the data related to any unit in particular?"

For this, go to the Units tabs at the country database (the excel file in each country or faction):

C:\Steam\steamapps\common\Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm\Modules\FPRS\Data (If you are a steam user).

Open the country database excel and go for the National tab. Go to Harware quality values and below that default military unit values, that ranges from 0 to 10. You can only adjust the User database excel for your own custom scenarios and campaings.

For the in-game scenarios (use a different excel, locked for modding), you can only adjust training, morale and readiness adjusting the unit parameters (right click in the unit counter when in the scenario editor). Just open a scenario in the editor for that, mod it, and save it (do a backup copy just in case to keep the originals safe).

"I tried the editor but such things as equipment, like thermals, isn't available there"

For this go as well to the Units tabs at the country database:

C:\Steam\steamapps\common\Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm\Modules\FPRS\Data (If you are a steam user).

Open the country database excel and go for the Units tab. At sensors column you can add things or delete things for example to each unit.

See the modding guide for all the sensors and other goodies nomenclature.

"I am interested in the order delay times each side has in particular, IMO the time for WP to follow orders WP has been overestimated at the point to make them irresponsive for long periods. Nobody wants to play a side where you give orders and wait for several turns watching the fate of your units whilst your opponent gets all the fun, being able to react and give orders that will be obeyed each time!"

I understand you on that, I feel the same. Although this game is a command oriented strategy game, I also find the delay system very harsh to me. Unfortunately, there is no way to mod the delay factor, but there is an exploitation to overcome that (some will argue that this is very gamey or cheeting, but this actually makes the game a lot more fun to me, not necessarily easy). The exploitation is to set the 3 waypoints for a unit, confirm the order and then delete the first waypoint. That way you will have in general 4 min delay only. The ETA will still be impacted by training, morale, terrain and some other factors.

Hope that helps. sorry if something is still a little bit confusing, english is not my native language.

First of all, have fun! This is one of my favorite war games and I mostly play the soviets, not because any political reason...:)!...but beacuse I am a big fan of russian hardware...T-80 is just a sexy beast for me for example...hehehe

Cheers,



Rincon -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/3/2020 11:26:50 PM)

Panta_slith, as a WP player, as we normally are in the attack in the scenarios in-game, never ever fight in open terrain. Specially with infantry, for some reason WP infantry feels very less resistent than NATO.

I always avoid open terrain at all costs, even if that implies taking a longer route. See the image below in an scenario I won. See the yellow arrows representing the route I took. Decisive success against West Germans...Rommel´s historic old unit took another blow in 89! :)

Always look for cities and forests...take longer, but worth the effort. Oh and Arty and Air support are your best friends! Make NATO units scream in fear with that prior the advance!

Cheers!

[image]local://upfiles/61933/B3B346FA638D41D0ABDDCCDE3C5368BB.jpg[/image]



KungPao -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/4/2020 12:38:43 AM)

Hi Panta_slith
Have faith in WP units. With carefully planning, rest and refit, well coordinate with Arty, WP units can be nasty.
yes, in the game T80B1 may be mediocre, everything else that ends with [m] could be a deadly opponent. I have seen a whole platoon shiny new M1 wiped out by AT-11 fired 5000m away, the poor M1 didn't get a chance to fire even one shot! as a WP player I have achieved great victory in PBEM, in some of game I have killed twice of Nato units than the unit I lost.

quote:

I am playing with a friend the A Test of Wills scenario and found out that the T-80's thermal sights are unable to see under the rain beyond 500m, something that not prevents NATO units from firing and hitting their targets from several hexes of distance.


I guess what you experienced is the most frustration moment for any WP player, caught in a bad position in a bad weather. In a light rain, you can only see 2000m (4 hex), but NATO units with TI can see 3000-3500m away. In a heavy rain, sometime it produces a frustration situation that makes you want to throw your mouse onto the screen ---- you can only see 1 hex away, units with TI can shot target 2 hex away.



Rincon -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/4/2020 12:44:36 AM)

Good advices KungPao. Playing with WP is very different that of NATO. Fun to learn it as well.

Move-resuply-move...find a good spot and hold. Locate enemy AD and arty asap. Once eliminated, raze hell with your own arty and air assets as well.

Get close. T-80BV can be as deadly as well. Get close. The only real advantage of NATO is thermals. They will shoot first normally. So use the terrain and get close.

Cheers



Panta_slith -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/4/2020 3:49:22 AM)

Perhaps I asked the game too much, I wanted it to be like a military simulator, but I guess that many of the prejudices of the developers concerning the WP forces were embedded in the game. TacOps, an unfortunately outdated military simulation developped by US Marines Major (r) Holdrige and employed by the US Marines, the US Cavalry and the Canadian Army had a civilian version around which a small but active community of players, many of them in the military or with a military background, was a game that didn't make concessions in that sense. Other than the hardware or the orbat differences, the results depended solely on the players (it was meant to be played in a military network as a training tool) tactics and skills. And of course you had to employ the tactics the respective military manuals imposed.
I know that there are ways to avoid the shortcomings of FPG, but for that you don't have to employ standard military tactics, by the book. Try to apply the WP attack formations described in the US FM military manuals, as any WP commander would, and then tell me what happens. A wargame that doesn't allow you to simulate or reproduce the battles as they would or were is just a game you play for fun or self gratification.
FGR has many good things we can enjoy, I guess that with just some precise adjustments and carefully balanced scenarios can far better.



Panta_slith -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/4/2020 4:10:25 AM)

Rincon, your English is very good, actually I speak Portuguese fluently, having lived or worked in BraZil for 14 years, but keeping chatting in English will allow everybody to follow the topic.
Thank you for your tips, I have just watched the databases as you explained me to do and found a few interesting things I can tweak a little to make, hopefully, more (IMO) balanced H2H scenarios. For instance, the r/l Soviets employ artillery massively, as they did with great success during WW2. In FPG WP artillery is far less effective than NATO's, and I am not referring to special ordenance, of course. I am sure that you know what implies the expression "rolling barrage". I don't think you could use an advance following a rolling barrage with much success in FPG.
I will make a few experiments with some values (not related to the hardware, though) to see if I can use FPG more like a simulator and less as a game, like I people do with Steel Beasts Pro PE (I created a few scenarios for it that you still can find in their website). I had considered shelving FPG again out of disappointment (I even reactivated Battlefront's Red Thunder to pbem with my wargaming friend-opponent, but thanks to you maybe I will eventually find a way.



Rincon -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/4/2020 7:41:51 AM)

Panta_slith, nice, by the way, I am actually fluent in Spanish as well. I have never been in Uruguay (I want to visit that beautiful country one day), but part of my family is from Colombia, so I have Spanish as my second mother/native language.

I understand what you say. This is a game with the developers vision of a cold war gone hot. I know they have put a lot of research in it, but in the end it's their vision of WP and the conflict. For me, personally, I do not agree 100%, but find this game really enjoyable and a very nice piece of work. It is a what if scenario, no one knows at the end how that would unfold in real life, but the guesses here are well researched. There is also always some western bias in it, but as I mentioned, it is a really well researched game.

I do a lot of tweaking to adjust the game to my liking, but even the original conditions are fun to play when you learn the mechanics.

Cheers



Rincon -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (4/4/2020 8:47:57 PM)

Panta_slith, here another scenario I am currently playing.

See, normally my strategy starts dividing the main soviet forces in eschelons. See numbers I, II and III with the planning route once I send them order to advance (yellow arrows). The advance normally happens in two fases, with a resuply step in the middle, prior to the final push. I choose wisely the terrain for that purpose.

I group my reccon forces and send them first to try to investigate as much as posible the front line (see small yellow circles around my line of reccon forces). During this fase my main schelons are kept sitting tight, waiting for me to understand better the frontline situation. Using the help of the Enemy intel at TOC, I try to find and target enemy´s Air defences and Arty as much as posible and as early as posible...If I have recce helo available I try to send them behind enemy lines to search for those threats. if I have air support keep them safe untill I have located the enemy´s air defences or at least have a good idea where they are.

I Try to keep my recce in screen mode to try to save them as much as posible...difficult task in Red Storm.

Once a feel more comfortable with the enemies current situation in the frontline, I finally risk and try to coordinate the advance of my main schelons in different lines of attack to give as much headache as posible to the enemy.

This is one of my main strategies when playing with Soviets. Lots of fun, lots of tension and yelling at the computer screen...hehehe

As I am really not a military expert, not sure if this represents actual soviet doctrine, but works for me to defeat NATO here in this game.

Oh...and as I mentioned to you before...I never fight in open terrain. Never! I take a longer route if necessary, but always look for forests and cities, always.

Lets see how this mission unfolds.

Cheers,

[image]local://upfiles/61933/8BACFD3BFD054D339A9E7C68C1684225.jpg[/image]



GloriousRuse -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (6/16/2020 5:46:42 PM)

Not to practice the dark art of thread necromancy, but something jumped out at me here. Namely, the OPFOR manuals.

It's worth remembering that the Big 5 purchasing plan needed to be sold to congress. Political leaders being what they are, Abrams and Co decided that they were going to write an enemy and a doctrine that would be easily explained, and just as importantly, justify why big dollars should be dumped in modernizing the army.

One of the easier ways to do that was to take a theoretical USSR formation, line it up PRECISELY how the manual says, and then feed it into "what it looks like with the old stuff" versus "look how much ass we'll kick if you buy us the new stuff" if we sit in our positions and just keep shooting. Because variables like maneuver, surprise, and the like almost always act against the pure tech demo. The flip side of this was the US basically decided that the role of a company through battalion was to get to their assigned positions and keep killing stuff as it poured on. Maybe with a planned displacement to a new position.

The OPFOR manuals didn't try to actively lie or omit, and were indeed based in Soviet tactics, but they did present a very mechanistically predictable opponent who always conveniently rand that perfect line of approaching elements directly into the engagement area. Which was fine for the purposes of training people how to build engagement areas (a very necessary skill if you plan on sitting in place and shooting things until they or you die), or convincing congress that you needed a new tank because the old one clearly can't kill them fast enough.

So...they may not be flawless representation of soviet tactics. Particularly as they tended to ignore things like the soviet attack shaking out after the initial rebuke.

Point the second, if the soviets had followed those manuals, US training circulars basically said each company on the defense should kill Russians at somewhere between 7-10:1. If you decide to replicate that favorable interpretation of how the soviets would fight, and then use it against someone fighting like how the US said it was going to fight against that exact manual - well, you can probably expect to lose a lot of soviets.



dvphimself -> RE: T-80 thermals useless? (2/2/2021 6:23:33 AM)

Bitter, wo ist der Bahnmuseum?



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