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Egg_Shen -> Eric Young's Squad Assault: West Front (7/24/2003 2:06:11 AM)

Eric Young's Squad Assault: West Front

This game looks really good. Anyone know of any more screenshot than the ones ont he matrix site? No demo yet?



Belisarius -> Re: Eric Young's Squad Assault: West Front (7/24/2003 2:40:25 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Egg_Shen
[B]Eric Young's Squad Assault: West Front

This game looks really good. Anyone know of any more screenshot than the ones ont he matrix site? No demo yet? [/B][/QUOTE]

Egg_shen... are you baiting the Matrixgames crew? :p

Walk over to the Squad Assault subforum down below, and you'll find a few new goodies. :) AFAIK, a demo will not be released, but the game is due in August. *wishes really hard*



Egg_Shen -> (7/24/2003 3:03:24 AM)

thx for the info buddy ;)



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/24/2003 9:19:12 AM)

Matrix Games does NOT do demos, so you might as well wait anxiously to buy it, or not, but you won't be getting a demo.

Unless Matrix revises it's policy of not employing demos for its products.



Ian Packham -> (7/24/2003 9:54:59 AM)

Did Matrix ever list the reasons why they release no demos?



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/24/2003 10:04:26 AM)

I think the short answer is, a demo is usually stealing time away from actually getting the game finished.

Additionally, a demo is often a poor rushed incomplete version of the end result game.

Or that is what I recall in comments.



Ian Packham -> (7/24/2003 10:09:24 AM)

That argument only holds for demos made before the final release. It does not prevent them from posting a demo made from the release version on their website for people to try out before purchasing. That is a reasonable thing to do.

Its like asking people to purchase an audio CD of an artist without hearing any of the songs on the radio/TV first.



Igotmilk™ -> (7/24/2003 10:42:50 AM)

One of the problems with demo's is that the demo can SUCK but the game could be great. I have seen forums deluged with the game sucks because of this and the game sucks because of that after the demo was released but before the game was released, even if the game had the feature but it was purposefully not put in the demo.

Then the developers end up defending stuff from people who have never played the game and may have never even played the demo.

I see no problem with not releasing a demo.



Fred98 -> (7/24/2003 11:05:04 AM)

As for Airborne Assault, I looked at the screen shots and thought it a poor game.

Then I downloaded the demo and found it to be a great game. It was the demo that sold me even though many features are missing.

From the screen shots EYSA looks like a poor game.



Ian Packham -> (7/24/2003 1:20:20 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Igotmilk™
[B]One of the problems with demo's is that the demo can SUCK but the game could be great. I have seen forums deluged with the game sucks because of this and the game sucks because of that after the demo was released but before the game was released, even if the game had the feature but it was purposefully not put in the demo.

Then the developers end up defending stuff from people who have never played the game and may have never even played the demo.

I see no problem with not releasing a demo. [/B][/QUOTE]

True but in the case of EYSA they can include a complete battle with all the features on so people will get a true sense of the game. I agree demos should be released only after the game release so that there are no misconceptions about gameplay/features. I cant imagine any good reason why not to release a true game demo based on the release version.



Fallschirmjager -> (7/24/2003 1:24:09 PM)

If a matrix game sucks I will stop buying from them

if more ppl stuck to that we could see the end of bad games



BrubakerII -> (7/24/2003 2:00:11 PM)

Personally I like demos because I have been caught out too many times over the years buying games at top dollar when they blow like a cold south wind. Of course, releasing demos can have its drawbacks as Igm has stated.

Overall though, I would think a game's poor sales are not because a demo didn't properly demostrate its features, but because a demo actually highlighted to people why they don't like it.

Releasing demos - it is one of those damned if you do and damned if you don't scenarios I guess. Overall I would think if it can be done reasonably easily (ie. large publisher) then it should be done. If it is going to take resources that would detract from the bottom line (ie. small publisher), then it shouldn't be done.

Joe, interestingly the latest EYSA screenshots have done the opposite for me and now I will likely buy. Interesting how different features appeal to different people. I think if you are confident of a game, release a demo. This will sell it for you.

Brubaker



Belisarius -> (7/24/2003 6:07:10 PM)

A post-release demo wouldn't hurt anyone, IMO. The problem might be since the games are not level-based or campaign-based as such, it might be hard to make a playable demo without giving away the whole game?

I mean, demos for FPS games are easy, just ship the game engine along with a level and you have a demo. What we get when we by a wargame is nothing but the engine and a interface, really. (OK, I'm simplifying but I hope you get the point)

That said, demos are really good for getting a feel for the game, and a feel wether you like the gameplay or not. A game can look fabulous but still not apply to you because it's just too hard/easy/unmanageable/shallow... a demo will reveal that.

Airborne assault looked boooring to me, but after reading the AAR it actually looks quite fun. :)

Then again, it's Matrixgames' decision, and if they choose not to make demos, I won't b*tch about it.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/24/2003 7:22:12 PM)

Ian hit on something that was a valid comment.

But here is my twist on it.

The best demo of a game (to me) is in the making of a good one in the first place. An established reputation is worth gold.

Sell me on you game producing qualities, and you won't have to sell me on every damnable piece of software you produce.

I have been wargaming way to long to NOT be able to competently scope out a wargame.

I have seen some games produced by some companies, and yes, you can bet, I am as skeptical as hell now. Demo, I don't need demos from competent companies. Details that are relevant can be found online in a forum.

I also don't need demos from "incompetent" companies. I don't buy anything from them, including the rare case of a game that they actually manage to figure out how to do correctly.



BrubakerII -> (7/24/2003 7:59:48 PM)

Les what about a new company or an established company creating a game in a new genre? Surely each product needs to be rated on its on merit and not the merit of its predecessor? I loved Sim City 2000. :) I also bought Sim City 4 on the same logic you have expressed :(


Brubaker



Igotmilk™ -> (7/24/2003 10:59:06 PM)

Hey Brubaker! [IMG]http://server3.neosurge.com/~freedomt/forums/html/emoticons/yermom.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://server3.neosurge.com/~freedomt/forums/html/emoticons/tongue.gif[/IMG]



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/25/2003 5:12:54 AM)

New companies are like any other form of newbie. Gotta earn yer respect.

You make a game, you pray, you advertise, you hope you did everything correct.

You release your game, you cross your fingers, and you find out if you can cut it.

If you do your homework, and you do everything the veterans make clear makes a good game a "good" game, you should succeed.

But I have seen numerous cases where businesses (any sort of business) have been opened, and it is sooooo apparent the owner never took a business course, and was self assured they "knew what they were doing".

If I was suddenly blessed with wealth, and had a burning desire to run a modest company, and make the best danged computer wargame possible, I would give those with games that have proven they knew what they were doing a chance to tell me a few things.

Demos are a two way sword that cuts both ways.
A demo can lead to 5 sales and ruin 5 sales. End result, you spent time making a demo (and time is money), and you are not any further ahead.

If I was making a computer game, I would soak my money into marketing, not into providing a demo. If it was my first game, I would make it a break even game too. I would tell my audience, this is my proof of the pudding game. If you like it, please look forward to the next one I make.

I know this much. Matrix Games has given wargamers a ****load of a great deal in Steel Panthers World at War. They went out and they produced something they made nothing off of, that cost them real cash, and they proved they knew their stuff.

The Mega Campaigns are in my opinion a splendid "business demo". They told the whole world, yes we want to make wargames, and we know how to do it.

I am confident I am going to like Combat Leader. I am also confident David heath won't spring it on me until HE is good and ready.
He has invested tooooo much time and energy to throw it all away releasing a game based solely on a marketing strategy, the worst example being "oh it's christmas". I will be lining up to get Combat Leader regardless of what time of year it is. Day after christmas and you can bet I WILL find the money.

I don't need a demo of Combat Leader. I have already seen the demo of Matrix Games.

I don't mind saying I have seen demos of a few other companies out there. Some of which I will invariably shy away from simply because their business demo sucks.



ShermanM4 -> Just a Suggestion (7/25/2003 7:14:34 AM)

Have any of you considered buying a copy of GI Combat. Now I am not trying to start a debate about if it will be the same game or not. My simple observations from the screenshots and much of the writing suggests there will be a lot of similarities. If you bought GIC that would be a great demo! Plus i'm sure you can find it for $9.99 now.



Paul Vebber -> (7/25/2003 7:35:27 AM)

EYSA is a VERY different game than GIC. Just because they sort of look the same, its sort of like saying original SP would be a good demo to see if you like SP:WaW. Maybe in some ways, but you get the idea...

EYSA grew out of GIC, but to me is more "different" from it than SP:WaW is from original SP.

I was REALLY skeptical that you could do a "continuous time 3D game" that would "work for me" but I find I like EYSA more and more. Infantry combat in particular "works for me" a lot better than in the turn based alternative... The flexibility of continuous time makes WEGO turns seems stilted and "disconnected".

The continuous time aspect REALY draws you into the action in a way I just never got with WEGO.



Fred98 -> (7/25/2003 7:59:22 AM)

Sounds to me that Paul is turning away from the dark side :)



U2 -> (7/25/2003 3:05:31 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Vebber
[B]
Infantry combat in particular "works for me" a lot better than in the turn based alternative...
. [/B][/QUOTE]

This is what I wanted to hear. The infantry action is the key for real time games like these. Worked in CC2 and I have never seen it since:( High hopes for this one though:)



BrubakerII -> (7/25/2003 3:10:38 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Igotmilk™
[B]Hey Brubaker! [IMG]http://server3.neosurge.com/~freedomt/forums/html/emoticons/yermom.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://server3.neosurge.com/~freedomt/forums/html/emoticons/tongue.gif[/IMG] [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't get it :(

You do have nice emoticons though. I signed up for some but ended up with spam :(

Please explain the joke to me I am getting upset. I hate being laughed at. It is enough my family stop whispering and start smirking when I enter the room.

Brubaker



BrubakerII -> (7/25/2003 3:19:26 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]I don't need a demo of Combat Leader. I have already seen the demo of Matrix Games.[/B][/QUOTE]

This is a fair comment I guess but a little narrowminded, isn't it? I wonder if all those Daikatana purchaser's that followed *** over from ID feel the same today? Or the Sid Meier fans that bought Simgolf. The industry is littered with gamer designers gone bad. (Hey they would make a nifty half hour show title.)

This has nothing to do with Matrix but since you used it as an example I will as well. I agree Matrix has an excellent rep producing games so far. But how does that guarantee that an SSG, Freedom Games, etc will be of the same standard? What if something goes wrong? What if David sinks so much money into a project that when it gets to 95% done and he hates it, commercially he is committed to releasing it anyway?

***In no way does the example above relate to any real product by Matrix I am simply using it as an example***

I love my Suzuki motorbike and will likely buyy another when the time comes but does that mean the next one will be a quality product? Shouldn't I compare it against other makes and 'test' it first?

Brubaker

PS: I am not looking to argue ;) but surely commonsense should prevail here?



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/25/2003 7:26:06 PM)

It always comes down to what you feel of people's opinions too.

I have seen many games, played many games, and not all of my opinions are based entirely on first hand experience with owning the game.

I do base a great deal of my purchasing though, on the game as represented on the forum communities out there.

If I said game X absolutely sucked, and you liked my views in general, then that would be your way of knowing you might want to steer clear of it.

Sort of like movie reviewers. I have passed on movies before simply because a friend said to do so. I know what they like and why. And if they have the same views as me, then it merits consideration.

I have only ever seen one demo that was enough to sell me on the game. I played the Strategic Command demo for 5 minutes. I didn't need more than 5 minutes. I was sold in 5 minutes.

I have seen Airborne Assault. I suggest a person get it. And that is the review of a person who normally doesn't like real time mode games. So if it impressed a person that doesn't like real time games, you know it is head and shoulders above most real time games. Because pleasing me won't be an easy thing.

Matrix Games is rapidly becoming bigger than just a Steel Panthers portal in a big way. Soon they will have games from many sources. Some I might not like even potentially.
When the day comes that Matrix Games becomes that big, you will just have to fall back on the forums to decide if you like a game or not I suppose.

It works for me.



Igotmilk™ -> (7/25/2003 10:34:57 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BrubakerII
[B]I don't get it :(
[/B][/QUOTE]
No joke, just been a while. I was just saying "Hi" without putting on the kid's gloves like you are a dainty little flower. Male bonding and the rest. Did not mean to make fun of you.



BrubakerII -> (7/26/2003 7:33:48 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Igotmilk™
[B]No joke, just been a while. [/B][/QUOTE]


:D


I am not sure if the fact I try and psycho-analyse your remarks every time you speak is a reflection of my mentality or yours :p

Good to see you around though Milk. You would think the both of us would have found something better to do by now wouldn't you. :rolleyes:

Brubaker



BrubakerII -> @ Les (7/26/2003 7:43:39 AM)

I certainly agree about other people's opinions. I tend to base my initial interest from magazines/internet and then look for commentary on forums by people I know have [I]similar[/I] likes and dislikes. And I do actually agree in the first instance that respect from a company can drive (for me) a positive expectation for a product, I just still think each item needs evaluating on its own merits. A demo can go a long way to doing that. Of course once a product is actually released forum commentary is invaluable.

I work in pharmeceutical marketing at the moment (I sweep the floors ;) ) and time and time again I see a well respected big name product get 'split' into lets say 5 different ones - all pretending to enhance the original. The truth is it is a greedy marketing technique to try and capitilise on that 'brand loyalty' you are speaking of and im my opinion is preying on the unwary consumer. Ironically it often ends up trying to divide the same consumer resource pie into more slices. Ah commercialism, brand loyalty and marketing - you gotta love it :mad:

Brubaker

PS: (permission to go back to topic now)



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/26/2003 4:53:51 PM)

Regarding bad decisions Brubaker. I guess that is how a "good" company often becomes a "bad" company.

Good companies give you a solid product each and every time. They never resort to milking a product just for some money.
Occasionally a company will produce a good product, but that is no reason to assume automatically they are a good company.

I am generally rough on a bad product, but I am more or less unmerciful on a bad company. When a business has knowingly given me a crummy product, they can only expect me to be quite nasty back.

It is easy to earn customer loyalty, and easy to retain it. But just as easy to ruin it too. Once lost though, customer loyalty rarely ever returns.

Getting to on topic. 3d real time is fairly far off the beaten track for me. But I have seen a lot of the efforts being put into EYSA from an inside perspective.

While it might not be my cup of tea even on release day, I have seen that Matrix has applied a full measure of effort to make it please it's target audience.
I think the 3d real time crowd will like it. But I say that expecting to be allowed to say it as a hostile witness :).



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