RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (Full Version)

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GodwinW -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 5:39:24 PM)

Quite similar to how I play, also do not have issues.



badwammerjammer -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 6:18:27 PM)

Quick logistics query that doesn't warrant its own thread - let's say I have 1 zone producing all my fuel (3k/turn), my SHQ in another with 1k fuel banked, and my army in a 3rd (wanting 5k/turn).

Am I right in thinking that first the banked 1k will be distributed, then the 3k will be pulled to the SHQ? So the army won't have received what it needs, but I'll start the next turn with positive fuel in my SHQ?



Malevolence -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 6:35:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: liq3
Rail isn't more efficient at LP than trucks are, they're just the best at range. I'm not likely to build a train track less than 30 long (even 30 you can manage with trucks and some sealed roads), and that's 900 metal and IP already.


This is a good caveat. I would add, works well going through really bad terrain too, like mountains.

Somewhat like the Siege of Tyre causeway, I have built a rail station on one side of a mountain range and rail head at the other side just in order to move supplies into a campaign zone.



Naselus -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 6:45:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: badwammerjammer

Quick logistics query that doesn't warrant its own thread - let's say I have 1 zone producing all my fuel (3k/turn), my SHQ in another with 1k fuel banked, and my army in a 3rd (wanting 5k/turn).

Am I right in thinking that first the banked 1k will be distributed, then the 3k will be pulled to the SHQ? So the army won't have received what it needs, but I'll start the next turn with positive fuel in my SHQ?


Yes, this seems to be how it works.

It's easiest to see using IP generally - if you spend all the IP in the SHQ, then the next turn any construction in zones with no industry will not progress, but the SHQ will replenish it's IP stockpile with surpluses from zones that aren't using theirs.



L0ckAndL0ad -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 7:35:49 PM)

I'm playing on a 197x79 hex map and got to the point where I start making new cities and have to connect it all with a good logistical network. Trying to figure out the best way to do it, I broke my brain. Even WITP AE logistic is more straightforward to deal with. :(

I kinda understand how the roads work. But I started using railroads now and there are things I don't understand. If the railroad is built properly, with RR assets on both ends, do the units IN BETWEEN the assets, along the railroad itself, get the full capacity available to them? Like, before I built the end way of the RR, the capacity on the railways showed 100 (10%, as per manual), but then it jumped to full 1000 when the asset on the far end went operational. But does that mean you can use 100% RR capacity along the entire network? Or only just where the RR assets are present?




Jdane -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 7:43:31 PM)

The latter.
10% being available along the railway track, should a unit need to source supplies from there.

Basically you need infrastructure to unlock the full potential of rail logistics, but still can use some in the boonies in a pinch.



Naselus -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 7:57:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad

I'm playing on a 197x79 hex map and got to the point where I start making new cities and have to connect it all with a good logistical network. Trying to figure out the best way to do it, I broke my brain. Even WITP AE logistic is more straightforward to deal with. :(

I kinda understand how the roads work. But I started using railroads now and there are things I don't understand. If the railroad is built properly, with RR assets on both ends, do the units IN BETWEEN the assets, along the railroad itself, get the full capacity available to them? Like, before I built the end way of the RR, the capacity on the railways showed 100 (10%, as per manual), but then it jumped to full 1000 when the asset on the far end went operational. But does that mean you can use 100% RR capacity along the entire network? Or only just where the RR assets are present?




RR seems to be pretty much 100% the whole length, provided it has 'ends'. Build a truck stop and some roads off a RR, you can collect the truck stop's fill of LIS and move them off the train without it apparently needing to stop anywhere.

On the big maps, on very slow, I'm finding that railroad to connect all cities, with minimum L2 truck depots at each city to distribute logi once it gets there works well tbh. IP and metal are just not a big problem when you have 10+ cities in the mid game, which you should on a 200x map - I presently have 13 cities and own about 20% of the map. This means I can build anything anywhere by importing the mats, which experience tells me is extremely important.

I'm generally trying to keep zones really small tho - admin strain is absolutely devastating, since it's a flat % off the output of, well, almost everything, so 1 truck stop in the city, fed by a railway can basically cover a whole zone ideally. If I was using huge rambling zones then maybe I'd approach things differently.



ramnblam -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 8:03:28 PM)

Can someone explain to me when is the time to build a supply base? Should they be built in the same hex as a truck station? The manual says to choose a hex with good supply and it will extend the amount of hexes with that supply point value. Does it extend in one direction or both? Is it ever worth building another supply base on the same road before it meets another truck station?



jimwinsor -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 8:19:44 PM)

Well I missed this in the latest beta patch notes ... spaghetti road haters, there ya go!



[image]local://upfiles/18834/532CC41690FD4D82BEF7B6CE8E8540E7.jpg[/image]



Naselus -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 8:34:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

Can someone explain to me when is the time to build a supply base? Should they be built in the same hex as a truck station? The manual says to choose a hex with good supply and it will extend the amount of hexes with that supply point value. Does it extend in one direction or both? Is it ever worth building another supply base on the same road before it meets another truck station?


Only when you can't afford another truck station imo, supply bases are mostly junk.



KingHalford -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 9:01:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Well I missed this in the latest beta patch notes ... spaghetti road haters, there ya go!



[image]local://upfiles/18834/532CC41690FD4D82BEF7B6CE8E8540E7.jpg[/image]


That was quick!



Jdane -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 9:06:15 PM)

I love this sentence.
« Or maybe you'd like to demolish some roads? » [:D]
Yes, I'm in the mood for destruction. The precious sacred bodily fluid of our regime, our holy LIS, is wasted on these forsaken trails. Let the caterpillars sally forth!



DTurtle -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 9:10:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naselus
Only when you can't afford another truck station imo, supply bases are mostly junk.


I have to strongly disagree with that. Supply bases are magnificent. I build them one hex outside the city. A Lvl 2 Truck station + Lvl 2 Supply base can go 18 hexes on dirt roads without losing any truck points and go another 10 or so hexes after that. Double that for sealed roads.

You get that range extension for the cost of 1-3 hexes of railroad tracks and almost nothing in upkeep.



Naselus -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 9:14:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DTurtle
I have to strongly disagree with that. Supply bases are magnificent. I build them one hex outside the city. A Lvl 2 Truck station + Lvl 2 Supply base can go 18 hexes on dirt roads without losing any truck points and go another 10 or so hexes after that. Double that for sealed roads.

You get that range extension for the cost of 1-3 hexes of railroad tracks and almost nothing in upkeep.


Reasonable men disagree :D

Honestly, I think this will really depend on the circumstances in-game. I have a ton of IP and oil and I'm generating silly amounts of pop from cloning centres, so truck stops cost me basically nothing. If I was sat on a tiny life-free moon with bingo oil, I suspect I'd suddenly find supply bases amazing...



Nemo84 -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 9:18:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Naselus


quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

Can someone explain to me when is the time to build a supply base? Should they be built in the same hex as a truck station? The manual says to choose a hex with good supply and it will extend the amount of hexes with that supply point value. Does it extend in one direction or both? Is it ever worth building another supply base on the same road before it meets another truck station?


Only when you can't afford another truck station imo, supply bases are mostly junk.


Supply bases are a lot cheaper than truck stations and allow you the same total truck points when used correctly.

Basically a lvl.1 Truck Station will extend its 1000 truck points (TP) over a region of 100 action points (AP). A normal dirt road takes 10 AP to traverse. So your Truck Station will extend its full 1000 TP as Logistics Points (LP) over a 10 hex radius. After that its LP will gradually fall to zero over the next 10 hexes. So let's say you have a 20 hex road between two cities with a lvl.1 truck station in each. You can send cargo weighing barely more than 1000 LP per turn, because the end hexes will only see a tiny fraction of the LP from the other city, and you'll have unused capacity in the middle of the road where the two radii overlap.

That's where the Supply Base comes in. A lvl.3 Supply Base extends your AP with 100. Build it in between both cities and now the entire road sees 2000 LP and can send 2000 cargo per turn. Lower levels have lower AP extension, which is useful for shorther roads.

Now you ask: why not build another truck station in the middle? Well, first of all, if you build a lvl.1 Truck Station in between both ends will only see 500 LP from that station, as the TP are split among both road branches leaving that station. Secondly, supply bases scale better. If each city upgrades its Truck Stations to lvl.5, they'll each generate 25000 TP. To extend 50% of this to the other city with a Truck Station, you'd need to upgrade that one to an expensive lvl.5 as well. You can still extend it 100% with the same old cheap lvl.3 Supply Base.



ramnblam -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 9:32:00 PM)

So it's never a bad idea to build a supply station next or in close proximity to a truckstation/city?



Naselus -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 9:58:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

So it's never a bad idea to build a supply station next or in close proximity to a truckstation/city?


I think it depends on your circumstances. If you're following a strict 6-hex limit round your cities and have no real pop, fuel or IP limitations then supply bases are completely useless.

On the other hand, if your zones are all 500 hexes wide, fuel MUST be synthesized cos hydrocarbons never happened on your planet, IP is precious and population is hard to come by, then supply bases are completely vital and you should only ever build a truck stop if there's no option.

Most situations will be somewhere in between.



ramnblam -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 10:13:28 PM)

Yeah I hear you Naselus, I just won my first game and the mid-end game was a real big learning experience in regards to logistics. Most of the end game after smashing two push over neighbouring majors was fighting the absolute ****ing hordes of giant animals and pushing borders and trying to keep the troops supplied.



Nemo84 -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 10:17:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

So it's never a bad idea to build a supply station next or in close proximity to a truckstation/city?


I would never build it next to a truck station. No reason to, and then it would only work well for that single truck station. You want to build it in between stations or near intersections, so it can boost more than one. At least have it boost traffic in both directions. You just have to make sure it's within the optimal range of the stations. For a lvl.7 station and a sealed road that's 26 hexes, so it's not hard and you don't need many if you place them properly.

I have a supply base that serves 9 different truck stations, simply because it is built near an important intersection in my logistics network, close to SHQ.




ramnblam -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 10:25:41 PM)

Ok Nemo, I'm beginning to understand. For example I had issues when assaulting a neighbouring major with overwhelming force I had bottlenecks at the intersections leading towards the front, so a supply base can help mitigate the strain and make more points available downstream?

I would ****ing love the UI to be like "yo bro, if you put this here, this is what the **** is gonna do" haha



Nemo84 -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 10:38:33 PM)

Correct (depending on the cause of the bottleneck). You can use the traffic sign screen to analyze where the traffic in that bottleneck is coming from and how many AP they have left.

But when placing that base, keep in mind where your next truck station is going to be. Often this is the nearest enemy city. You want the supply base that supports your troops today to also ease the logistics flow between your old and new territory tomorrow.

Also make sure your logistic points are not being siphoned off by side roads and branches. When the road splits, both branches are assigned the same amount of logistics points if no traffic lights are present. Even if one branch leads to a lvl.1 farm and the other has to support your entire armed forces.



Naselus -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 10:47:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

Correct (depending ...


It's so hard not to be astonishingly unhelpful when discussing this lol :D



Laiders -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 10:58:33 PM)

It really is because the systems are all so dynamic. Also people have very different styles, some play very gamey whereas others play more RP, people play on diverse difficulty and planet settings. Really each specific situation the community is asked to help trouble-shoot is unique and even then 3 people can come up with 3 equally valid though different solutions each with varying trade-offs and idiosyncratic to the individual advisors' styles.

There are clear wrong answers with this stuff but it's not clear there are any obviously right ones.



Malevolence -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 11:03:05 PM)

Supply Base is highly situational and will only stay optimal until you upgrade the associated truck station.

They cannot be chained.

I use them extensively. One on each route departing my SHQ's truck station. I use them sparely elsewhere, unless it's an unusually long route between cities.

Place them in the hex before the number of Truck Action Points starts to lower TPs along a route. This depends on TP direction of travel.

Since Truck Action Points are determined by the size of the Truck Station, this optimal position is likely to change as you build up.

This best position gets very difficult to determine, because the preview overlays sum TP/RPs in each hex. You have to check the logs via traffic signals.

[image]local://upfiles/34589/1821AB8ABB8945CC9E8017D04595B2F8.jpg[/image]

This is a very simple case where terrain is the same for all road hexes and TPs only travel in one direction and from a single source.



Naselus -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 11:06:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

Supply Base is highly situational and will only stay optimal until you upgrade the associated truck station.

They cannot be chained.

I use them extensively. One on each route departing my SHQ's truck station. I use them sparely elsewhere, unless it's an unusually long route between cities.

Place them in the hex before the number of Truck Action Points starts to lower LPs along a route.

Since Truck Action Points are determined by the size of the Truck Station, this optimal position is likely to change as you build up.


Yeah. So basically, always use Truck stations until you're confident enough that you understand logi enough to use supply bases instead. Or maybe assume 20% or so that you don't understand it as much as you think you do, and use trucks even if you think you DO know it [:D]



Malevolence -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 11:15:11 PM)

I think as new players, we forget that the cost from one hex to another is not uniform when it comes to Truck Action Points.

Truck Action Points are not Truck Points.

It took me a few turns to grok that where I could finally read the overlays and traffic sign logs.



Naselus -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 11:19:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

I think as new players, we forget that the cost from one hex to another is not uniform when it comes to Truck Action Points.

Truck Action Points are not Truck Points.

It took me a few turns to grok that where I could finally read the overlays and traffic sign logs.



Strongly suspect you're not helping [:D]



Malevolence -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 11:21:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naselus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

I think as new players, we forget that the cost from one hex to another is not uniform when it comes to Truck Action Points.

Truck Action Points are not Truck Points.

It took me a few turns to grok that where I could finally read the overlays and traffic sign logs.



Strongly suspect you're not helping [:D]


Fair enough [:D]

Hurray for delete roads!



Jdane -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 11:23:49 PM)

Making the distinction between Truck Points and Truck Action Points can only help though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

This best position gets very difficult to determine, because the preview overlays sum LP's in each hex.


Aren't you able to select a Truck Station while in Preview mode to highlight the LIS it should provide? (Never had a chance to try mind you, I'm yet to pass the 20th turn now that I'm somewhat aware of what to pay attention to, and still a one-zone peasant.)



Malevolence -> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess (6/13/2020 11:31:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jdane
Aren't you able to select a Truck Station while in Preview mode to highlight the LIS it should provide? (Never had a chance to try mind you, I'm yet to pass the 20th turn now that I'm somewhat aware of what to pay attention to, and still a one-zone peasant.)


You can?!? I've only seen that via the traffic signal logs--where you select source.

Keep in mind, I prefer control over absolute efficiency. Notice my routes are designed to cut the city off completely from incoming Truck Points if I require it (without breaking the pathing). So I create logic gates.

I relate it to creating magma traps in dwarf fortress.

[image]local://upfiles/34589/34D9B9A6BABD48418374E7F7D826736F.jpg[/image]

edit: with all that, when looking at this image, I noticed an error that needed to be fixed. It improved TP going south by more 100 TPs.



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