Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (Full Version)

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Tssha -> Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/10/2020 12:36:50 AM)

When it comes to designing tanks, I'm offered the choice between a Howitzer Gun or a High Velocity Gun. From the stats I can observe in game, there appears to be no difference in firepower, ammo consumption or weight. There is a difference in cost, in that the High Velocity Gun costs more IP, but that appears to be the only difference. The HVG also requires a tech to unlock.

Is there something missing here? Does the howitzer do more soft damage and the high velocity gun do more hard/piercing damage? Should I have different models depending on whether I'm fighting tanks or infantry? Or should I just go with the Howitzer to save on cost?



Cornuthaum -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/10/2020 1:10:07 AM)

howitzer is mostly soft attack, H-V is mostly hard attack

use howitzers on things you intend to use against infantry lines (assault guns, light tanks) and H-V guns on dedicated anti-armor/heavy combatant units (medium tank, heavy tank, AT-gun, tank destroyer)



Clux -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/10/2020 3:12:44 AM)

If you make the same model but with different guns, you will find out than if 200 its the base attack, then if you use howitzer you get 200 soft attack, 100 soft defense and 100 hard attack and 50 hard defense, it would be the contrary if you choose the high velocity gun. Therefore, follow the advice from Cornuthaum



MC456 -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/10/2020 3:55:54 AM)

To add to what everyone else is saying: I find going Howitzers on Light Tanks are a good choice because you want them to be strong anti-infantry beasts in the early game.



WeaverofBrokenThreads -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/10/2020 6:03:32 AM)

I never build howitzers if I can pick HV guns or hard attack weapons. The reason is simple: in an OHQ, after all the bonuses, I will always have the soft attack to splat infantry. Additionally, some types of armor, I am fairly certain count as 'vehicle armor' and require the use of hard attack weapons, because howitzers simply don't have the penetration. I cannot speak with confidence for this reason, because at my current playthrough, I always seem to use the hard attack value against everything. At least I think I am, it doesn't say it specifically.



KingHalford -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/10/2020 6:17:37 AM)

Here is why you should use howitzers against pre-combat armour infantry. I've found units with a mix of howitzers and HV guns to be effective against the mixed unit formations the AI will field in the game.

https://imgur.com/X4K7PVC

So howitzers get a -50% attack penalty vs. Hard attack and defence, whilst HV guns get a whopping -75% against soft attack and defence.



mek42 -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/21/2020 11:28:00 AM)

Starting as TL3 city state, I use 100 mm armored / hvy engine recon buggies as my anti-infantry AFV. When I finally do get tanks, if I can, I plan to use HV guns as anti-vehicle tools. At this point I generally field infantry brigades with a recon buggy and HV light tank battalions attached. If I'm able to make a lt tank OHQ, I'll attach two recon btn for anti-infantry duty.

My plan for arty/rockts is indie rgts, unattached.

I really wish you could add brigade HQs to corps HQs. It would be nice to have a light tank corps where each tank brigade is 27 tank models plus 2 APC btns and then at the corps level also have recon and mech arty rgts.



Tree Dog -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/21/2020 11:38:51 AM)

Does the Cluster Bombs tech also affect HV guns to compensate their poor soft attack values?



zgrssd -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/21/2020 12:08:15 PM)

As others said: The difference is how well they work vs Hard or Soft Targets.
There is also the issue with the Calibre Calculation. 5.12.3.4

Infantry will at tops run around with 100mm equivalent, and that is Advanced Battle Dress!
Meanwhile finding 200mm armor is not uncommon and 400mm actually possible on Tanks.

Light Tanks are limited to 60mm guns.
For a Hwoitzer, that is still 100% damge up to Advanced Combat Armor. -40% vs Battle Dress
Against vehicles? The step past 50mm is 100mm, wich is a -40% for the High-V gun.



mek42 -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/22/2020 9:06:48 PM)

Upon reflection, maybe using mostly 40 mm howitzers on light tank armies early with perhaps 60 mm HV guns available for the odd indie battalion might be the way to go.



Kojusoki -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/20/2021 8:27:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

Here is why you should use howitzers against pre-combat armour infantry. I've found units with a mix of howitzers and HV guns to be effective against the mixed unit formations the AI will field in the game.

https://imgur.com/X4K7PVC

So howitzers get a -50% attack penalty vs. Hard attack and defence, whilst HV guns get a whopping -75% against soft attack and defence.


Maybe someone will find it usefull: you dont need these tables, game already makes these calculations and "final" values are provided when you open your unit.
So if you have a tank with HV gun and 300 HardAttack, its Soft attack is 300x25% (taht "whopping -75% KingHalford mentioned)=75 (what is shown on the unit stats).

Now, when that tank is facing an infantry unit with Soft Def of 176 and hard def of 88 game works that way (*correct me if I am wrong please*):
Tank's Hard Attack of 300 is penalized to 75 (that 300x25%) while Infantry dev value is 88.
Caliber penalties are a completly different thing

If the above is correct, what was confusing for me was that Infantry has these two paramiters: Soft and Hard Defense - I thought tank "chooses" which gun to shot againts that particular oponent (MG with soft attack or main gun with hard atack).
But it is not that easy:)

So yes, tank with HV is not THAT effective againts soft targets, but:
-infantry can hardly bite them unless RPG
-your HV tank is fully capable to turn into a deadly anti-hard target machine while horwizers are basiaclly limited to the softtargets.
In other words, HV seems to be more usefull - ok not that effective againts infantry that cant do much, but ready to join the fight againts other targets



Wtface -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/21/2021 3:19:42 PM)

I use light tanks with howitzers vs infantry, mediums with HV against vehicles. If you are fighting anything with armor, besides the odd militia tank or buggy, you will need more then the light tanks 60mm piercing anyway. You also wont need HV until you have mediums generally, and it's better to have two different models then two light tank models pushing up each others costs.



BlueTemplar -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/22/2021 3:23:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tree Dog
Does the Cluster Bombs tech also affect HV guns to compensate their poor soft attack values?

No.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kojusoki
[...]
Now, when that tank is facing an infantry unit with Soft Def of 176 and hard def of 88 game works that way (*correct me if I am wrong please*):
Tank's Hard Attack of 300 is penalized to 75 (that 300x25%) while Infantry dev value is 88.
Caliber penalties are a completly different thing

If the above is correct, what was confusing for me was that Infantry has these two paramiters: Soft and Hard Defense - I thought tank "chooses" which gun to shot againts that particular oponent (MG with soft attack or main gun with hard atack).
But it is not that easy:)

So yes, tank with HV is not THAT effective againts soft targets, but:
-infantry can hardly bite them unless RPG
-your HV tank is fully capable to turn into a deadly anti-hard target machine while horwizers are basiaclly limited to the softtargets.
In other words, HV seems to be more usefull - ok not that effective againts infantry that cant do much, but ready to join the fight againts other targets

No, it doesn't work that way : Defense is an attack value, not a defense value.

Infantry is going to defend with their HP.

However hard armor *does* have two defense values : Soft and Hard HP, soft HP getting penalties, the bigger the tank is.

So Howitzers vs hard armor is (kind of) doubly penalized : first it gets -50% to firepower because it uses hard attack or defense, then, being a hard weapon it has to face the full hard HP. (While bazookas, being soft weapons, face the reduced soft HP.)



KingHalford -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/22/2021 10:08:41 PM)

I've tested this a lot and you really do not want to be using HV guns against infantry: you sustain losses that far exceed what you'd expect just from looking at the figures, and I forget exactly why this is but I remember reading somewhere that infantry get a bonus against tanks if they're over-run, meaning you can suffer terrible losses if you're not doing enough damage to the infantry during combat.



BlueTemplar -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/23/2021 5:04:52 PM)

Might be because tanks are bigger and so have a bigger "Max Attacked" modifier, which I'm pretty sure that the odds calculator doesn't take into account ?

(But then it also most likely doesn't take into account the startup modifier where tanks have an advantage, so..?

But then also to be able to read the odds, you have to be the one attacking, and there are startup attack nor counter-attack penalties for defenders ?)



BlueTemplar -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/23/2021 7:14:20 PM)

Ok, looks like it's just because the odds don't consider the 6 attack & defense values, but just the compounded (how ?) combat value ?

So obviously you're going to be in a hell of a hurt if you go in a "uphill" combat...
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=5040685



zgrssd -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/23/2021 9:53:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

I've tested this a lot and you really do not want to be using HV guns against infantry: you sustain losses that far exceed what you'd expect just from looking at the figures, and I forget exactly why this is but I remember reading somewhere that infantry get a bonus against tanks if they're over-run, meaning you can suffer terrible losses if you're not doing enough damage to the infantry during combat.

The HV gun suffers -75% Soft values. While it will not suffer any callibre calculation penalty, it still does not help overcomming the HP of decently armored soldiers.
Tanks suffer a massive penalty to HP vs Small Arms fire.
Furthermore tanks are realy bad in defense, so stuff is even worse if they are attacked.

Not being able to deal damage, means the enemies will continue to operate at or near full initial readiness - meaning they have a lot more chances to hurt you.
Against masses, tanks can do a lot of damage with counter-attacks. If you send some tanks agaisnt mutants, the mutants actually suffer more damage from counter-attacks then regular attacks. But if your gun already does not hurt them, the counterfire will even less so.



Kojusoki -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/23/2021 10:02:28 PM)

Thank you Blue Templar!



BlueTemplar -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/23/2021 11:36:24 PM)

[;)]



Uemon -> RE: Howitzer Gun vs High Velocity Gun (6/30/2021 7:17:24 PM)

I tested this once and quickly concluded that you dont want hv guns on your first tanks because they are nearly useless against soft targets, whereas howitzers guns will often massacre infantry early on. There isnt quite any other unit that can push enemy infantry like tanks early on. Walkers with laser weapons do so as well, but much later on.



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