OBB mixing Infantry with armor (Full Version)

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Clux -> OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 6:31:50 PM)

I have barely used them since the enemy AI doesnt make tanks, but I'm curios if when you create an OBB with APC + infantry or Light Tanks + Infantry if the Infantry "gets cover" and gets hit less or if they benefit from the movement type of the tanks/APC. Because otherwise I have not find why you should make them instead of separate units.



Coffeecool -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 6:44:52 PM)

APC are superior to Trucks in every way, they are tracked that means faster on roads and offroad and they come with a mounted machinegun + armor.
But aussault formations(inf/tanks) are not really usefull imo, the benefit is that your tanks get the bonus from comanders unlike a independent tank formation, but are a lot less mobile if they are attached to the infantry. It could be that the tanks come seperate i never tried it to find out, in that case its the better option.



ramnblam -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 6:57:01 PM)

*Me getting ****ed by enemy AI tanks* :(



WeaverofBrokenThreads -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 7:02:44 PM)

I have not confirmed this, but I will, however I think infantry acts as a preventer for tanks, stopping infantry from attacking tanks which have massive negative modifiers from being attacked by inf.



Coffeecool -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 7:09:37 PM)

The question is not if you should send tanks alone or in combination with infantry. But if its worth to build the combined forces over the independant ones.



Malevolence -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 7:14:28 PM)

It depends on your models. There are important details in the Model sections under 5.12.3, "Designing New Models".

(I'm irritated every time I see 5mm Armor.)




WeaverofBrokenThreads -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 7:17:43 PM)

I believe I answered the question. Yes, there are massive huge benefits.



Laiders -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 7:23:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coffeecool

The question is not if you should send tanks alone or in combination with infantry. But if its worth to build the combined forces over the independant ones.


Well certainly early on and possibly into the late game you may want infantry tanks. Infantry tanks should be used in combined units alongside infantry because an infantry tank should never be without its infantry.

If you are using cavalry tanks, then generally they should be independent or obviously accompanied by motorised or mech inf that can keep up.

Why would you want to use tanks in an infantry support role? Well that depends on the situation you are fighting in, the models you have designed and the logistical situation of your empire. If you cannot produce oil or metals in great quantities, then you may not be able to avoid large mechanised forces. Here using upgunned, uparmoured tanks with underpowered engines in an infantry support/AT role could be quite beneficial and the best way to use tanks. If the terrain is not favourable to tank combat or rapid mechanised advance, then again this might be the best option etc.

Note you do not have to research all available OOBs or models (an error I have made in earlier games). Do not waste BPs getting assault armies (the game's term for mixed foot infantry tank formations) if you do not think they will be useful. However, always consider that they could be useful in a range of situations such as those briefly outlined above.



WeaverofBrokenThreads -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 7:30:12 PM)

You absolutely do not want to use underpowered engines if you do not have oil. The fuel cost sky rockets. In my latest game, I put a beam gun from an archive onto a heavy tank, and the fat bastard ate 40 fuel PER HEX. And that's just the minor offender. I don't even want to talk about my rocket artillery...



Laiders -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 7:41:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WeaverofBrokenThreads

You absolutely do not want to use underpowered engines if you do not have oil. The fuel cost sky rockets. In my latest game, I put a beam gun from an archive onto a heavy tank, and the fat bastard ate 40 fuel PER HEX. And that's just the minor offender. I don't even want to talk about my rocket artillery...


Interesting... I presume powerful engines eat more oil too.

Then the best thing to do is to ensure your engines are adequate no less and certainly no more if fighting with foot infantry. Not quite sure why an underpowered engine would drive up fuel costs so much. Don't underpowered engines give a negative AP modifier representing the fact that you move less far on the same fuel? Seems like double penalisation if you are hit with neg AP, representing you move less far on the same fuel, and increased fuel costs, presumably representing the fact your engine has to chug more fuel to get as far as a more powerful one would.

It's obviously less efficient to use an engine underpowered for the job but that penalty should come either from AP or from fuel cost not both.

This is all miles off-topic. Sorry OP!



KingHalford -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 7:42:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WeaverofBrokenThreads

You absolutely do not want to use underpowered engines if you do not have oil. The fuel cost sky rockets. In my latest game, I put a beam gun from an archive onto a heavy tank, and the fat bastard ate 40 fuel PER HEX. And that's just the minor offender. I don't even want to talk about my rocket artillery...


I didn't know this! I thought you'd save fuel by underpowering it... but that makes perfect sense. Good info!



KingHalford -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 7:45:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coffeecool

APC are superior to Trucks in every way, they are tracked that means faster on roads and offroad and they come with a mounted machinegun + armor.
But aussault formations(inf/tanks) are not really usefull imo, the benefit is that your tanks get the bonus from comanders unlike a independent tank formation, but are a lot less mobile if they are attached to the infantry. It could be that the tanks come seperate i never tried it to find out, in that case its the better option.


You get more tanks with the Assault infantry... AND you can then add another two independent units on top of them, for EVER MOAAAAR TANKS.

As for the OP, don't worry, the tanks function as tanks and the infantry function as infantry. Same as all the other model combinations. There are big advantages, for example, to having artillery mixed with infantry (they fire to pin and damage enemy units whilst the infantry advance for the first three rounds, and if independent arty are attacked they're a lot more vulnerable than ones mixed with infantry)

There's another thread somewhere that I broke down the relative costs of Siege Infantry Corps vs light Infantry Corps with added Indy Arty... you're getting more arty for less money and the added bonus of the OHQ bonuses + the option to add 2 other indy units.

However they are situationally useful so best to use your judgement there. In the example above, Siege Infantry formations are monsterously effective in attacking superior-tech infantry in difficult terrain like High mountains or dense forest.



WeaverofBrokenThreads -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 8:09:18 PM)

All right, so I can confirm that infantry does not protect tanks from infantry attacks. But it is still useful to have them. At the very least, they will sponge some hits that could've gone onto the tank instead. They are also cheap to replace.

On the topic of tanks, I haven't run the numbers, but I believe an engine that is overpowered burns LESS fuel per hex, but has a heftier initial investment. I think the idea is that the efficiency is based on 'fuel per hex' rather than 'gallons per hour'. This goes back to the initial topic. Overpowered engine light tanks and mechanized infantry absolutely wreck. Huge range and incredible tendency to get surrounded by angry enemies deep inside enemy territory. This is why you want the infantry and potentially mechanized artillery support. The mechanized storm infantry is a good one as it can perform a wide range of tasks whilst delivering killing blows to Major regimes.



Cornuthaum -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 8:18:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coffeecool

APC are superior to Trucks in every way, they are tracked that means faster on roads and offroad and they come with a mounted machinegun + armor.
But aussault formations(inf/tanks) are not really usefull imo, the benefit is that your tanks get the bonus from comanders unlike a independent tank formation, but are a lot less mobile if they are attached to the infantry. It could be that the tanks come seperate i never tried it to find out, in that case its the better option.


You get more tanks with the Assault infantry... AND you can then add another two independent units on top of them, for EVER MOAAAAR TANKS.

As for the OP, don't worry, the tanks function as tanks and the infantry function as infantry. Same as all the other model combinations. There are big advantages, for example, to having artillery mixed with infantry (they fire to pin and damage enemy units whilst the infantry advance for the first three rounds, and if independent arty are attacked they're a lot more vulnerable than ones mixed with infantry)

There's another thread somewhere that I broke down the relative costs of Siege Infantry Corps vs light Infantry Corps with added Indy Arty... you're getting more arty for less money and the added bonus of the OHQ bonuses + the option to add 2 other indy units.

However they are situationally useful so best to use your judgement there. In the example above, Siege Infantry formations are monsterously effective in attacking superior-tech infantry in difficult terrain like High mountains or dense forest.


Siege Infantry is probably the best offensive foot infantry OOB out there. I haven't found a Heavy MG + RPG infantry oob yet, which would be the ideal defensive OOB.

Meanwhile, for offensive, mechanized infantry is stupendous once you get to polymer armour. The bolter buses are basically bulletproof against infantry weapons and you output a tremendous amount of soft attack while still having excellent defensive stats.



WeaverofBrokenThreads -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 8:24:48 PM)

quote:

bolter buses


[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]



KingHalford -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 8:28:23 PM)

Yes I'm getting more into using Mechanized Infantry now: initially I avoided them as I didn't know how good those APCs were, but man they really do kick ass when used right! They basically make your infantry quite tough on the attack and that's not to be sniffed at!

The way OOBs and Model design works in this game is so interesting, there's so much room for experimentation too.



t1it -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 8:39:56 PM)

I always rush for mechanized infantry and I wish the AI did too...



Clux -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 9:08:42 PM)

Thank you so much for your answers and advises guys! Now I know how I will kick this major than its deep inside a cloud forest [:@] [:D]



Cornuthaum -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/10/2020 11:16:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WeaverofBrokenThreads

quote:

bolter buses


[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

Bolter Bus is one of the default names for the armored transport model :V



diamondspider -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/11/2020 12:20:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WeaverofBrokenThreads
Overpowered engine light tanks and mechanized infantry absolutely wreck.


This is how I'm now winning the game over an AI that started with 31% against my 14% victory at the start of the war. So, yes! The brigade mech infantry OHQ is also fairly cheap early on. Due to how important having AP left over is in battle, mobility is everything on attack. For defense, can just use cheap machine guns in cover, but the best defense is a good offense.



lion_of_judah -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/11/2020 4:39:40 AM)

how can I mix different units types together? I'm facing an AI enemy that has artillery and infantry, thanks



Tssha -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/11/2020 4:41:03 AM)

Copied from page 325 of the manual:
quote:

Foot is mostly defensive
Soldiers on foot without ranged attack have their Soft and Hard Attack Values divided by two.

I have made so many mistakes. I'm thinking I'll start over, and not attack with infantry unless they're paired with artillery or APCs. And maybe tanks, they count as ranged units too, right?



lion_of_judah -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/11/2020 4:56:08 AM)

The AI is hitting my units with level 7 infantry and artillery, unknown level, to my level 4 infantry and level 3 artillery.



Clux -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/11/2020 6:06:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lion_of_judah

how can I mix different units types together? I'm facing an AI enemy that has artillery and infantry, thanks

You have to discover OBB using the staff council, as mentioned earlier



KingHalford -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/11/2020 7:14:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tssha

Copied from page 325 of the manual:
quote:

Foot is mostly defensive
Soldiers on foot without ranged attack have their Soft and Hard Attack Values divided by two.

I have made so many mistakes. I'm thinking I'll start over, and not attack with infantry unless they're paired with artillery or APCs. And maybe tanks, they count as ranged units too, right?


This is a bit simplistic: you'll have to attack with infantry in the early game and they can be most effective: remember that despite that Soft/Hard Attack penalty that they're TWICE as effective as the Minor Regime units overall.

Also, later in the game when you've got your infantry armed and armoured with advanced tech they can become incredibly strong!



WeaverofBrokenThreads -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/11/2020 8:02:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tssha

Copied from page 325 of the manual:
quote:

Foot is mostly defensive
Soldiers on foot without ranged attack have their Soft and Hard Attack Values divided by two.

I have made so many mistakes. I'm thinking I'll start over, and not attack with infantry unless they're paired with artillery or APCs. And maybe tanks, they count as ranged units too, right?


This is a bit simplistic: you'll have to attack with infantry in the early game and they can be most effective: remember that despite that Soft/Hard Attack penalty that they're TWICE as effective as the Minor Regime units overall.

Also, later in the game when you've got your infantry armed and armoured with advanced tech they can become incredibly strong!


I believe that manual entry is not worded properly. Infantry, I think, always has their attack cut in half, whether they are with ranged attack units or not. I'd have to confirm, but this modifier appears in their model design window thingy. So does the machineguns.

In my opinion, the infantry is just bad for the attack. You should never, ever, make infantry, mechanized or otherwise, with the intent to use it to attack.

The role of infantry units when used properly is thus:

* To break through enemy lines and destroy artillery.
* To kill tanks.
* To protect artillery.
* To reduce entrenchment (Probably by dying a lot; Soviet style)

The role of infantry OOBs, and their mechanized/motorized variants is to cut off supply roads (Only works on Majors) and to surround the enemy to give your tanks and artillery stupid bonuses, and to ensure that the unit you encircled is dead. Think of them as sheepherders.

I cannot stress this enough: Absolutely do not build infantry in the early game (on diffs higher than regular)

If you build infantry, it is for the purpose of sitting on your truck stops, and you cannot afford MGs or want just a little more 'oomph' on a desperate attack option (maintain zones on supply roads).

Later on when you get to laser rifles and better, your infantry will have options other than 'go and die for the motherland' and 'sit here 'till you die of old age... and then some more'

Do not get me wrong, I am talking about infantry OOBs that are exclusively infantry and elements that carry them. OOBs that mix tanks and infantry or artillery and infantry are godlike. Infantry performs a different role in those OOBs.

But yes, as BATTLEMODE says, when you get battledress, laser rifles and jetpacks, infantry become... interesting. Also, some unit feats will only attach to subunits composed of 100 members - those are infantry. And they're very strong.

I hope this helps you strategize your early starts better, and make use of proper OOBs in your next/current game.

EDIT: I forgot to mention one other extremely important use for infantry. DEFENSE. Front-line defense, especially in ruins, makes infantry extremely good. As good as walkers. Most things that kill infantry cannot shoot well in ruins, forests, or river-crossings, and this is where your infantry (on defense) does well. Also, sacrificing a few thousand to break through the enemy front line in these places is a good use for them.



Laiders -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/11/2020 8:28:43 AM)

Bearing in mind you have literally no other options in the early game, assuming you want to raise formations of any significant size, what do you build in the early game? Endless independent regiments of buggies?

Or do you mean do not raise pure light infantry formations and should raise MG infantry etc instead? An MG infantry formation is still a pure infantry formation.



WeaverofBrokenThreads -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/11/2020 8:39:20 AM)

No, I go for a model design council first and wait until I have light tanks and artillery. Generally tanks with high velocity guns.



Laiders -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/11/2020 8:45:58 AM)

Interesting... I've never played on difficulties higher than regular but that seems interesting.

Do minors really generate that many hard units early on higher difficulties or do you tend to play planets that generate a lot of raiders? I can sort of understand waiting for tanks but I really don't understand why you need anti-armour weapons right at the beginning of the game.



WeaverofBrokenThreads -> RE: OBB mixing Infantry with armor (6/11/2020 8:58:16 AM)

Minors and unaligned -are- the problem, on extreme diff at least. They are so much stronger than you that you really don't stand a chance on the offensive without tanks. Because the multiplier add up on top of one another. So you'd have 200% entrenchment, modifying their defense to 120. And then +25% for experience (as an example) to 150. And then +20% for difficulty to 180. And then in walks your silly 28 soft attack infantry, like lambs to the slaughter. In my last game I started next to not one, but TWO surviving AIs. Swarmed with walkers from turn 3, every turn.

And then I got tanks and absolutely murdered them.

For the record, the infantry, including MGs, did not stand up to them on the defense either. They're just not good enough even with assault rifles (not against walkers at least); but I got lucky with a GR MG that had like 1300 defense, and a syndic priest to double it. Absolutely unkillable. Except food shortages... I'll miss them.

Long story short: Even militia will crush your assault rifle infantry on extreme difficulty. But this is a lesson that should work on regular games as well. You should use infantry for their intended role, no matter the difficulty. Attack is not one of them.



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