Model design (weight vs engine power) (Full Version)

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Emx77 -> Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:08:34 AM)

I have just deigned my first light tank with following specifications: 25 mm high velocity gun, 25 mm steel plating armor, medium diesel engine (300 power, 8.2 fuel). Total weight 285.

My intention was to have more powerful engine (300) compared to total weight (285) in order to avoid negative move modifier. However, after model was researched and ready for production I realized that I have underpowered engine with -30% move modifier.

1. How to judge during design process what will be move modifier? What engine/weight ratio need to be in order to have 0% move modifier?

2. At unit screen we can see various statistics. But some of these data are different from data presented on "Model and quality level management window" or during process where we give equipment specifications to Model Design Council.

For example, at unit screen we can see that fuel consumption is 3.2, in "Model and quality" window there is stat "Move oil = 32", but during specification of engine we can see that medium diesel engine consumes 8.2 fuel. Similarly there are discrepancies for weight. Unit screen shows weight of 25 but "Model and quality" window, as well as specifications screen, says that weight is 285. How these numbers are related?

This is very important if I want to plan oil consumption. Let say that I have reserve of 1.000 oil points at SHQ. How much of this reserve will consume my 50 light tanks unit per hex moved? 50 x 3.2? 50 x 32? 50 x 8.2?

Also, how much logistic capacity points will use Strategic move of this unit? 285 or 50?

[image]local://upfiles/11514/C47BCC9745034F9FB3D54B4BFE91FABB.jpg[/image]



diamondspider -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:13:31 AM)

Good questions. I buy the biggest engine available for my light tanks because mobility is the key to winning in this game in most cases... at least that's what I've seen. Mechanized infantry and light tanks are great, unless the terrain in your world gimps them.



Malevolence -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:14:40 AM)

Did you include the engine weight? The engine power should be at the very minimum 90% of the total weight value. I just use more engine power than weight to be sure.

That's engine power >= 90% total weight ... in the manual. Bonus as the ratio of power increases. Penalties as your the ratio decreases.

You can hover over the weight of any selection--armor, gun, engine-- to see your totals before you select.

---

The weight = 25 in your screenshot is LPs to deliver.



WeaverofBrokenThreads -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:21:02 AM)

Not all engines are made equal. The final engine power appears to be modified by the base design value in a way that is not obvious. Your options are to either start a new model, or try to iterate on that one.



Emx77 -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:24:09 AM)

quote:

Did you include the engine weight? The engine power should be at the very minimum 90% of the total weight value. I just use more engine power than weight to be sure.


Yes. Total weight is 285. Base start 50 + 50 (gun) + 125 (armor) +60 (engine) = 285.

[image]local://upfiles/11514/EEFF4CEEE2974DDAA5D12ED206F80AE1.jpg[/image]



Malevolence -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:24:35 AM)

If you dont get over 100 on structure design value, i would re-roll. It never goes up in that design line. I usually shoot for 115 before I standardize.



Malevolence -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:25:37 AM)

What are your design numbers?

I went through three APC design re-rolls before I ever accepted and fielded one.



Emx77 -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:28:02 AM)

Here are information about structural and base design. Does this help?



Malevolence -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:29:26 AM)

Your engine design is 66... but still see a good 285:300.




WeaverofBrokenThreads -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:31:15 AM)

I believe the engine design modifies your engine power by x 0.66. If we compare that with the numbers given in the manual that means your final engine power is actually: 198.

Against weight 285, that means >= 60% (0.68% weight to power ratio) which gives a +30% move mod. The numbers check out. You need to design a better model with greater engine design.



Emx77 -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:31:48 AM)

I think that WeaverofBrokenThreads probably gave only possible explanation.



Malevolence -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:32:50 AM)

but according to that same attachment his engine power is 300. It's not showing a penalty.

I agree with the way it's working, but it isn't giving good info in the details there.



WeaverofBrokenThreads -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:33:50 AM)

It's not updated. I think Vic forgot to add that.



WeaverofBrokenThreads -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:36:16 AM)

There doesn't appear to be a 'final engine power' value, like there is for soft attack, armor, hard attack. But I am sure the game calculates the movement mod cost when it designs the model, so it definitely takes engine design into account. But because that value either isn't stored or displayed (and uses the wrong value when displaying engine power) it is not obvious.



Malevolence -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:37:51 AM)

So the good news... for your first tank... just iterate a variant with same details after your tech level goes up. Make one unit and get some field experience and then upgrade.

Engine design improves with tech and field experience.

It's not a great base structure design, but it's good enough in early game.



Emx77 -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:37:55 AM)

Thank you guys. That answers my first question. Do you have any idea about fuel and logistic points consumption?



Malevolence -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:40:36 AM)

Sorry, I have more oil than Exxon. I never worry about it.



WeaverofBrokenThreads -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/11/2020 11:44:15 AM)

The weight on the first screen (25) is how much it would cost to transport it using your logistics network. Because your engine is so terrible at moving the tank, it costs more fuel to move it across a hex. It takes more fuel to move such a heavy machine. How it actually relates to the fuel consumption listed in the design screen... I think only Vic knows the answer to that.

EDIT: to amend my previous remark. I think the fuel consumption listed on the design selection screen relates to how much fuel a round of combat costs. Same with ammo on guns.



LuciusSulla -> RE: Model design (weight vs engine power) (6/15/2020 10:08:15 AM)

I encountered a similiar issue and filed a bug report here: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4833222

I checked other designs and it seems that engine design score should not affect power/weight ratio.

The weight data entry for medium engine seems to be incorrect.



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