Making new city. (Full Version)

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Twotribes -> Making new city. (6/11/2020 5:58:12 PM)

I understand how to use colonists, But I don't know how to make a new zone or how to make new city. Any help?



Culthrasa -> RE: Making new city. (6/11/2020 6:09:43 PM)

The way i've done it is to make an asset (say a farm) and in that menu click the "make new zone" checkbox. After the asset was finished a new zone was created along with a city with 1000pop. After that I send colonists to it to make it grow. There might be other ways of doing it, this worked for me (only done it a few times though..)

hope it helps!



Twotribes -> RE: Making new city. (6/11/2020 6:25:35 PM)

Thanks for the life of me I couldn't remember where I had seen the make new zone command, that helps a lot.



Daza99 -> RE: Making new city. (7/30/2020 8:07:11 AM)

I also wondered how to do this. Experimenting a little more i see the same thing can be achieved with the New Zone button far right, so long as an asset is 5 or more hexes away from a city.

*Update* For the first time i created a new zone using the tick box when constructing a new asset. Once these assets had been finished the New Zone button was available to click on this hex. But i thought i already create a New Zone? So i clicked on the button and it asked to confirm and then said you created a New Zone. But i thought i had already done this?

I understand it is not a good idea to have too many new zones?



WCG -> RE: Making new city. (7/30/2020 12:24:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Daza99

I understand it is not a good idea to have too many new zones?




I don't know. I'm not sure why. A new zone starts with high happiness, but that will drop over time, because there are no QOL buildings at all. Obviously, you need to build them. And it's very helpful to have stratagems which give private buildings with QOL bonuses, too.

You also need good logistics, not just for building stuff, but in order to transport colonists there. I swear, you can never have too much when it comes to logistics! But I haven't had a big problem with the two new cities I've created.

And although low-level buildings don't produce as much as the higher-level ones, they're much cheaper and faster to build. If you're on a planet where many zones don't have cities already - lots of slavers, mutants, rogue AI, marauders, or alien animals roaming everywhere - then you won't have as many sources of BP, for example, unless you build your own cities.

True, you can just build up your capital to a very high level and build there, but at high levels, that takes a very long time and a lot of resources. Personally, I'd rather have more cities, even if they're smaller.

I'm not entirely sure that's optimum, but it seems to make sense from a role-playing perspective, too. Of course, you want a city nearby if there are metal deposits or other resources. But I like to have cities spaced reasonably well throughout my empire, anyway.

I'm sure it's possible to build too many. But I don't know how many that is.




demiare -> RE: Making new city. (7/30/2020 2:58:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Daza99

I understand it is not a good idea to have too many new zones?



Yes, every new zone is net lose to you. You need to have a good reason for it:

1) Resources you need so much.
2) Logistic issues.
3) You're lucky ... sitting on ton of unused cloning and automatic factories [:D]



WCG -> RE: Making new city. (7/31/2020 2:13:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

Yes, every new zone is net lose to you.


Please explain. Why is it a net loss?

Thanks.





demiare -> RE: Making new city. (7/31/2020 4:44:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WCG

Please explain. Why is it a net loss?


1) Every low-level building is less efficient then high-level. So production per worker of any city-only building in new city will be LESS then if that workers stayed home.

2) Every new city waste workers for logistics buildings (or wasting other cities logistic points) simply to feed itself. They will also build a private farm and it will waste a ton of workers. Excess private food will give nothing to your state economics.

3) Every new city waste workers for QOL private buildings (and usually for state one too, at least for a first time).

4) Every new city is additional chance to trigger bad events. To partially cover it you will waste credits & PP to keep happiness high until city will get QOL buildings. See #3 again. [:D]

So if you're building a new city in middle of nowhere - it's a pure net loss for your economics. This why you need a good reason for city - it should either able to mine critical resources (usually metal & artifacts) OR boosting your front-line logistic capabilities.



WCG -> RE: Making new city. (7/31/2020 12:22:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

So if you're building a new city in middle of nowhere - it's a pure net loss for your economics. This why you need a good reason for city - it should either able to mine critical resources (usually metal & artifacts) OR boosting your front-line logistic capabilities.



I see. Thanks.

Most of that I knew. But you seem to think that the private economy is useless. I get benefits from that - direct and indirect. Indeed, I like to encourage the private economy in my cities. I get resources, money, and happiness from it.

Maybe it's not as efficient as the public economy? OK, perhaps. But I'm not sure I really care about that.

I never build a city for no reason, of course. Usually, there are resources and a need for logistics further from my established cities. A city still needs a reason to exist.

And again, although low-level buildings are less efficient, they are also much quicker and cheaper to build. Speed often matters, and it usually takes time to accumulate a huge amount of resources, too (given that I usually need more than one thing at a time!).

Also,... I'm not a min/maxer. That's just personal preference, of course. But I'm quite willing to play a game that's not the absolute pinnacle of efficiency as long as it makes sense from a role-playing perspective... and still works.

I like to build QOL buildings, too. [:)] Of course, I don't go overboard. In RL, there are good reasons for hospitals and schools! It's not just quality of life. (I wish it were that way in Shadow Empire, too.) But even in RL, governments have to be prudent about QOL buildings.

Thanks again for the reply. That satisfied my curiosity. [:)]





demiare -> RE: Making new city. (7/31/2020 3:46:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WCG
But you seem to think that the private economy is useless.


What do you mean by "private economy"? There is a two types of private buildings - resource gatherers and QOL buildings. First are at least partially useful (partially because they're MUCH less effective then yours).

Private QOL are useless and one big damned trap.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WCG
And again, although low-level buildings are less efficient, they are also much quicker and cheaper to build. Speed often matters, and it usually takes time to accumulate a huge amount of resources, too (given that I usually need more than one thing at a time!).


IMHO past early game population is most scarce resource. This why level 1 buildings are so bad (AFAIK only rail stations are better at level 1 then at max, but it's seems to be a bug / bad balance).

quote:

ORIGINAL: WCG
I like to build QOL buildings, too. Of course, I don't go overboard. In RL, there are good reasons for hospitals and schools! It's not just quality of life.


Well... Hospitals and Barracks will at least provide bonus for some nasty random events. Everything else is useless :)



demiare -> RE: Making new city. (8/1/2020 10:30:55 AM)

Yesterday I forget to mention governors skills. It's easy (and IMHO always worth it) to find a few really good governor for your capital in mid-game and possibly for one-two best zones too, while it's simply impossible to get a good governor into every zone.

That's why level 1 buildings even worse then they're looking - they will be not boosted as much as possible by skills.

P.S. But yean, high tier buildings are indeed slow to build. That's why I always exile "Eternity Movement" after it was redesigned - previously their negative effect was predictable, now it's uncontrollable and too annoying for me.



WCG -> RE: Making new city. (8/1/2020 12:34:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

That's why I always exile "Eternity Movement" after it was redesigned - previously their negative effect was predictable, now it's uncontrollable and too annoying for me.



I'm afraid I don't know what that is.





Twotribes -> RE: Making new city. (8/1/2020 2:24:24 PM)

Cult.



Twotribes -> RE: Making new city. (8/1/2020 2:33:22 PM)

What is so bad about eternity?



demiare -> RE: Making new city. (8/1/2020 2:56:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes
What is so bad about eternity?


My own luck stat - I already had rolled 0 on d50 roll to delay construction. [:D] And often trigger it 2-3 times while constructing Rail Station / Demetalizer. I like to plan my economy in advance so such random annoy me like @#$%.
Plus their bonus is not so sweet like it look as public production penalty affect BP generation too, so they make you better in research but worse in everything else (aside from combat).
And finally Mind ethic is incompatible with aggressive expansion while diplomatic IMHO is too OP (especially on hard+), so I'd stopped using it.
But again - it's mostly my own personal preferences.



Twotribes -> RE: Making new city. (8/1/2020 3:41:40 PM)

Thanks for reply I am playing no majors and pick and chose who to attack and who to get diplomatically. Ya I see the bad roll after I checked it it is 8 percent for me. So takes a couple extra turns to make stuff, How do you see what cult your leaders are part of? I have assassinate as an option.



demiare -> RE: Making new city. (8/1/2020 3:57:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

How do you see what cult your leaders are part of?


Leader who became part of cult will receive a cult trait like "Eternity Movement member" (or similar). You can see it in character stats (AFAIK it's impossible to see traits into leaders table in reports without checking every leader manually but I'm not sure).



WCG -> RE: Making new city. (8/2/2020 11:51:10 AM)

One other thing I've noticed about a shortage of cities is the administrative strain you get when existing zones spread out too much.

I'm not sure how that is calculated. At first, I assumed that you needed to work resources that were distant from the city, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I get bad administrative strain anyway, when the territory gets too big. (Maybe from truck stations? I need to have logistics throughout my land, just to defend my borders. Or is it merely the size of the zone that matters?)

I still don't build new cities everywhere. But I'm about ready to build my third, and I'm considering whether I want to build a fourth. With advanced technology, I can do without resources, but it's still cheaper and quicker to build mines. Cities just seem to make sense from a role-playing perspective, too. But if it also cuts my administrative strain penalty (which is already up to 14% in one of my zones), that would be another bonus.





demiare -> RE: Making new city. (8/2/2020 11:58:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WCG

I'm not sure how that is calculated. At first, I assumed that you needed to work resources that were distant from the city, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I get bad administrative strain anyway, when the territory gets too big. (Maybe from truck stations? I need to have logistics throughout my land, just to defend my borders. Or is it merely the size of the zone that matters?)



Manual isn't for dummies here :P

P. 170
quote:


Nothing forces you to create new Cities (and thus more Zones), but if you have Rural Assets further away than 6 Hexes from the Zone’s City they will start to give your Zone problems in the form of Administrative Strain.
Formula for Administrative Strain: (For Each Asset Beyond Distance (((Distance-6)/6) * Asset level * production%) / (All Other Assets * Asset Level * production%). Administrative Strain is maximum 100%.
In the above calculation Private Assets count for half of that of Public Assets. Mothballed and Closed Assets do not count, just Asset that are producing.
If your current Administrative Strain calculation result is higher than then your Administrative Strain percentage then it will increase with up to 10%, or decrease with maximum 10% if it is lower. The experienced Administrative Strain thus tends to seep in with time. The effect is gradual.


So any active asset past 6 hexs = admin strain. Technically you could accept one-two level1-2 assets on distance not further then 7-8 hex. Anything else will impose a unavoidable administrative strain penalty on your zone.

If you're playing beta then Supply Bases are reworked, you could place them in 6 hex range and they will still buff any passing logistic with additional range (but range buffs do not stack anymore).

And don't forget that 1-9% is no penalty, it's a warning. 10-19% provide 10% penalty of everything in zone, 20-29% is 20% penalty and so on.



Sieppo -> RE: Making new city. (8/3/2020 1:13:16 PM)

Yeah absolutely, administrative strain is the thing that basically forces you to create more cities and I like it. I've had over 80% multiple times in zones and it forces you to keep an eye, modify zones and create new ones. I think it's ingenious gameplay wise.



WCG -> RE: Making new city. (8/3/2020 1:13:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

Manual isn't for dummies here :P



Oh, there's my problem! [:)]


quote:



And don't forget that 1-9% is no penalty, it's a warning. 10-19% provide 10% penalty of everything in zone, 20-29% is 20% penalty and so on.



I didn't know that. Thanks. Admittedly, I've actually never seen administrative strain that wasn't between 10-19%.

Still, that is another reason to build cities, right? Even if there aren't resources elsewhere in the world - and that's unlikely - you still need logistics on your roads. And it's hard to push that long distances from a single city.





demiare -> RE: Making new city. (8/3/2020 4:01:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WCG
Still, that is another reason to build cities, right? Even if there aren't resources elsewhere in the world - and that's unlikely - you still need logistics on your roads. And it's hard to push that long distances from a single city.


Well this why I'd mentioned "logistic issues" as reason to create a new city initially. [:D]



HansLemurson -> RE: Making new city. (8/3/2020 8:05:27 PM)

I've captured a bunch of new mines and farms while laying siege to an enemy Capital. They are far away from any city I own, and have been creating a lot of Administrative Strain.
The only places nearby where I could found a city to take over for them are in a 500 RAD zone, so I've been leery of trying to found a new city there (although I did just discover radiation filters).

If I mothball the facilities, will this reduce the strain? Also, where would I find a readout on the causes and amount of Administrative Strain in a zone?



demiare -> RE: Making new city. (8/3/2020 8:22:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansLemurson
If I mothball the facilities, will this reduce the strain? Also, where would I find a readout on the causes and amount of Administrative Strain in a zone?


1) Yes, mothball remove that asset from admin strain calculation, while reduced output is reducing strain too.
2) Nowhere :)

But it's very easy to understand if you will look on formula : everything past 8-9 hex from city will make penalty unavoidable.



gmsitton -> RE: Making new city. (8/4/2020 5:13:55 AM)

I'm playing on a large world with the Robinson Crusoe setting (no other majors). There are great gaps between cities so I build new ones in the gaps. It works out to a new city about 15 hexes or so away from an existing city. It's a big help with logistics for placing rail stations to keep rail points high in the hinterlands. Also, assuming I have sufficient logistics points, I can build new units far away from SHQ cities.



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