Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (Full Version)

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jpwrunyan -> Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/13/2020 2:33:26 PM)

I'm looking at the picture example in the manual for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units. There's another example above in 4.5.9 Operational Logistics (I would suggest consolidating these two sections BTW).

I'm going to try to explain this picture and see if I get it right.

Along the dotted operation lines there is a number, same as there are numbers on the actual road network.

The adjoining explanation in the manual reads:
quote:

A Unit can pick up full supplies and replacement Troops up to 50 AP distance range from its initial Hex. After that it will pick up partial supplies up to 100 AP distance range... The AP costs are calculated using the Operational Supply Move Type. In most cases this gives Unit a range of 4 Hexes to pick up full supplies. And a range of 8 Hexes to pick up insufficient but some supplies.


[image]local://upfiles/40381/97B3BA7ABDFF497E86E5611DB8424DBF.jpg[/image]

I believe the number on the dotted line (off the road) represents logistic points transported by unit operational action points. On road hexes I can see logistic point usage using the traffic signs mode. But there's no way for me to examine the logistical points origin/destination on an off-road hex. I wish this were a feature.

Anyway I'm going to work backwards here because that's how I'd been trying to read this view up until now. In the picture with the militia unit next to the water resource, 6 is displayed NW of him until it merges with the 11 coming from the militia to the south. Together they make 17 on the road hex that is clearly beyond the normal max AP range of the road network's trucks (even though the terrain has a road, it's "off road" in regards to the logistics network of the trucks). Continuing NW we reach the final range of the logistics network's AP range. Again 17. This logistics value was provided by the last legs of the truck network. I know that's going backwards, but that's the way my brain has been trying to make sense of this until now.

Instead, I'm now going to treat operational logistics as an extension of the truck logistics network (trucks are all there is in this picture; rails come later).

So in the final truck hex, there are 17 logistic points at the max truck AP range on the road. At which point the range is extended to units in the field using operational action points. Operational action points don't actually "come" from units. They're an abstracted *potential* extension of your regular logistics that kick in to create a temporary path to units in the field. Operational AP saturate the entire network and can *potentially* begin extending out from every segment of the road. The thing is, *unlike* roads which *always* divert logistics points unless you use a traffic sign, operational logistics only divert logistics points if there is a path to a unit. And they extend the range of the logistics points from that given road hex toward the destination unit.

Here's where I might especially need clarification:
The one militia can get at most 6 logistics points of stuff delivered to it. The second one (next to Suza) can get 11. Why is one unit 6 and the other 11? If this were a road, the points would be split evenly. I don't know the answer to this.

First, I hope my explanation of truck logistics + operational logistics is correct. It's much longer than what appears in the manual by I have seriously needed a more detailed explanation and I hope this is it.

Second, I hope someone can answer my question about the 11 vs 6 logistics points between the two milita units. I've seen many even more complicated numbers in my other displays (one of which is in another thread: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4830201).

Thanks!




Jdane -> RE: Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/13/2020 2:49:10 PM)

To my knowledge, it's simply because the eastern militia unit requested less supplies this turn than the southern unit. You can check this by looking at the supply stats of the unit. It should show that e.g. the southern unit asked for ammunition and the eastern didn't.

Operational logistics is indeed an abstraction. IRL each military unit of a certain size has a logistics component, i.e. not front line combatants but truck drivers, cooks, gunsmiths, etc. That's what operational logistics is.

I mostly agree with your analysis. The only thing that bugs me is this "divert logistics" stuff. Unit requests supplies, SHQ uses available LIS to push supplies along the road until the point operational logistics pick them up for the last leg of the trip. At least that's what I'm picturing.



Laiders -> RE: Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/13/2020 3:14:07 PM)

Your understanding seems correct. I would have to read it all again slowly, possibly print and annotate it, to be completely sure.

The answer to your simple question is terrain. Terrain modifies AP costs including operational logistics and general logistics AP costs. The militia unit drawing/pushing 6 is in dunes if I am not mistaken. Dunes are real bad for AP costs, even for foot infantry, so it costs more. It's unclear if... OLIS/Op Log/OL/OP (darn acronyms)... operational logistics is displayed as a cost (your unit spent x) or a current total (this is the amount your unit had left). Assuming it's a current total then that would be why.

If it's a cost total, then it will be due to the shorter distance. 6 unit is supplied across 1 hex not two.

However, like you I think this overlay shows what can be pushed to the unit by Op Log. In that case, the system is saying, hey this unit got all its supply but tenuously due to bad terrain.

Hopefully that makes some degree of sense. I'll be honest I rely mostly on intuition for my understanding of the logistical system in this game. I have not groked its deeper workings. Hence, probably not the best person to tackle a question this specific.

Jdane could be right too. It could be differential rate in supply consumption meaning the southern unit required more supply pushing out to it.

Goddamn, this is why I rely on intuition and good first principles and just hope the game system will sort itself out!



jpwrunyan -> RE: Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/13/2020 8:14:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jdane
To my knowledge, it's simply because the eastern militia unit requested less supplies this turn than the southern unit. You can check this by looking at the supply stats of the unit. It should show that e.g. the southern unit asked for ammunition and the eastern didn't.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Laiders
Jdane could be right too. It could be differential rate in supply consumption meaning the southern unit required more supply pushing out to it.


I'm gonna dissent on this interpretation (assuming I read you guys correctly). I think the number in the hex *should* just indicate the logistics points the unit has access to. But the actual supply-and-demand is entirely separate (and much more complex since it uses the weight of items).

I say this because I've seen very inconsistent numbers on the unit-by-unit inventory requested/supplied panel and have never gotten those numbers to add up with the number shown on the map. So I think above it's 6 log. points of whatever gets to the first unit and 11 points of whatever gets to the other unit, divided differently based on whether it's food (always arrives?), ammo (has weight), fuel (uhm... the manual mentions pipes...), and other stuff. Do pipes and power poles get turned into hoses and electrical cords or something when they leave the network? I digress.

The terrain cost adjustment sounds right. I found it under 5.10.8. Mystery solved. One thing this made me realize is that unit counts don't stack to determine how many points get to a hex. So doom stacks are a bad logistical idea and become less tenable the farther from your logistics center you are.

Edit: also note that in that table 5.10.8 it shows roads as "N/A". That's probably because roads are assumed to be on the truck network and categorically can't consume operational points? However, I find this dubious since you can have a road that extends beyond the truck AP range as the manual picture clearly shows. So whats the cost in that case? I'm guessing it's 10... but maybe it's whatever the terrain type is... but that feels wrong.



Laiders -> RE: Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/13/2020 10:54:39 PM)

Probably whatever the underlying terrain is right. Roads are cheaper AP wise because they provide an easy path through a hex for a moving column. Units in a hex drawing supply are diffuse throughout the hex and will have to approach the road from any angle. It's not clear how the road could give any possible benefit to the unit here and Vic's enough of a stickler for detail he might take that in to account.

You could probably experiment and find out but it will only really matter in certain edge cases that aren't worth optimising for.

Also yes to stacking units. Only do it where operationally necessary for the shortest possible period of time unless holding a static garrison in a favourable position. Garrisons should have secure, strong supply anyway so any inefficiency shouldn't matter. Occurs to me that this neatly simulates inefficiencies like congestion without needing to if that makes sense. Units' op log does not stack and this, in effect, gives rise to congestion etc. This game...

TBH, I do that anyway because flanking and encirclement are crazy strong in this type of war system so you only ever want to stack units offensively were encirclement is impossible and you want to always try to engineer scenarios were it is possible. Defensively you only stack to strengthen under-strength units, who need less supply because dead soldiers don't eat, or to account for weaknesses in defense against a specific aggressor(eg. putting an MG and AT unit together). These sorts of scenarios render concerns about perfect supply efficiency moot. It does not matter if your soldiers cannot draw enough supply into one hex, if tanks are about to shatter your lines and wrap you.



Jdane -> RE: Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/13/2020 11:02:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

Do pipes and power poles get turned into hoses and electrical cords or something when they leave the network? I digress.


Apologies, because I will for now leave you hanging with the rest of your questions, but I just noticed something interesting:

[img]http://tof.cx/images/2020/06/14/7c7a1181795ad9b94ce74a5bc6288286.jpg[/img]
(That's the Used Pts map filter by the way.)

The motorized militia regiment requested 16 units of fuel and 19 units of food during turn resolution, and the militia battalion 6 units of food. The numbers pertaining to organic (operational if you will) logistics would add up. (And would tend to show that fuel gets put into jerrycans after leaving the road.)

However this picture still raises some questions.

The tail end for instance. How come 35 LIS was needed to bring supplies to Zoatvar, then 41 LIS' worth is pulled from there by organic logistics of the units?

Oaky, I can see the dotted line extending southwards from Zoatvar until that fork in the road where 47 logistics were spent. 41 LIS for food and fuel requested by the two units in the north plus 6 pulled by another unit to the south, it adds up.

But A) that would mean the weight of fuel is not 0 as stated in the manual and B) that somehow, at this fork in the road, the northern units' organic logistics managed to take charge of 6 LIS' worth of supplies but didn't get the rest until Zoatvar.

How do you like this? [8D]



jpwrunyan -> RE: Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/14/2020 2:01:54 AM)

Ug, that picture is ultra-confusing. In my brain, when it's a single-logistics center scenario, logistics points can only diminish over distance. Yes, I know operational paths can criss-cross at times and re-stack in some hexes, but in your example there is *no* criss-cross path. So indeed, how the hell did 35 turn into 41? It *looks* like a bug. Because at the highlighted hex you have 47 points. 6 points are then subtracted to go south. That would then leave 41 points to go north. So why does it have 35 on the way to Zoatvar? It simply looks totally incorrect. Dammit it should be 41 the way to the first unit. *Then* it can turn into 35 because what were essentially two overlapping logistics routes turn into one.

This is another tricky nuance of the operation logistics. Unlike logistics on roads which *always* split their points evenly. It looks like operational logistics might only split on a needed quantity basis? Ug. I'm back to knowing nothing about how this works.

At least in the picture from the documentation the 17 logistics from the road got neatly split into 11 and 6. Your picture undermines everything that was implied by that example. The documentation is *so* woefully inadequate.

I *really* need the traffic tool evaluator to work on these hexes too. I wonder if there's some other part of the UI I've forgotten about that logs this information??? The traffic stop view is the only one I can think of at the moment and it only works on roads!


edit:

waaaait a minute. Ok, it *looked* like your road logistics ended on the highlighted hex, but that's probably not the case. It's kind of hard to tell where your fat transparent white truck line ends exactly. Can I see this same view with the initial points values? I'm wondering if the first militia decided to go pick up supplies from further up the road network whereas the second militia brigade decided to pick up from closer toward the end of the road. Specifically, maybe their pickup point is on that hex that turns into 41... In which case the numbers are still confusing, but at least maybe that would be the *cause* of the weirdness? Again, if you can post the initial pts overlay for this that would be great.

Do you happen to know if you check the traffic tool whether it shows any goods being picked up? I kinda doubt it. I think the traffic tool only gives the details of initial logistics distribution on the truck network.



Malevolence -> RE: Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/14/2020 2:08:51 AM)

Keep in mind, the first, closest available delivery point is used--least cost path algorithm. Each delivery is a separate occurrence.

As you know, operational logistics points are TPs that are part of units. It's the "Sustainment Company" of the unit that returns to the road or rail route to pickup and deliver LPs to the unit.

The "Sustainment Company" doesn't just drive back to the road/rail and pickup. It drives back to the road, then follows the road as far back toward the SHQ as it can to pickup the LPs.

In that way, LPs on the road/rail are more likely to reach other unit's, etc. farther away from the SHQ. The closer, more capable unit didn't sandbag the pickup.

Finally, operational logistics points are subject to the same terrain penalties for deliveries. As Truck Action Points are to Truck Points, "operational logistics actions points" are to Operational Logistics Points. So add that to the old SAT.



Jdane -> RE: Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/14/2020 2:46:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

Can I see this same view with the initial points values?


Sure thing.
[img]http://tof.cx/images/2020/06/14/234551179f822b1ef2b5f9ec72c5af16.md.jpg[/img]
(You should be able to click on the image to open a close-up view.)

Unfortunately my brain is too fried up to do much more than this right now. [:'(]
But from what I can tell Malevolence is basically right, although I feel there's still something missing.
Until later.

P.S. : If it can help, there's only one supply source, the 1st SHQ through the level 1 Truck Station in Omicron.

P.P.S. : I have not the slightest idea what those yellow points are representing.



jpwrunyan -> RE: Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/14/2020 2:46:41 AM)

Right, so here's a question. Let's say the final hex of an ultra-saturated logistics network has 200 points (20% at maximum AP range). And then there's a unit one hex beyond that. How many points does the unit pull? If the LP is based on the unit, how much is that? 6? Because the way I read the documents example (where the terminal 20% hex had 17 points) I thought it was simply an extension of the logistics points from that final hex in the road. But now that strikes me as wrong. Because a unit can use its operation action points at 100% effectiveness up to 50 AP away as per the quote from the manual above. But really, it would be better for the unit to pick up at its maximum 50 AP range further up the road where more logistics points are available. Man I hope what I wrote is clear. Let me try to illustrate.

hexes: 
|  A  |  B  |  C  |  D  |  E  |  F  |  G  |  H  | <- hex
| LP  |
| 100%| 100%| 80% | 60% | 40% | 20% |  0% |  -  | <- logistics network penalty from truck AP (up to 50 max)
| 1000| 1000| 800 | 600 | 400 | 200 |  0  | unit| <- LP in each hex from trucks
| OP  |
|  ?% |  ?% |  ?% |100% |100% |100% |100% |  -  | <- pick-up efficiency (manual says "pick up full supplies" after which is "partial")
|84 OP|72 OP|60 OP|48 OP|36 OP|24 OP|12 OP|  -  | <- OP spent by the unit (up 150 max)

Let's pretend that the terrain is plains all the way, even though there is a road at least as far as Hex F (whether the road goes all the way to H shouldn't matter maybe?). The cost in operational action points is 12 for each hex. So which hex would the unit in hex H pick up from?

o Hex F: the nearest hex to the logistical network with 200 LP on it.
o Hex D: the farthest hex up the logistical network under 50 OP with 600 LP on it.
o Hex C: even farther up the logistical network, but depending on the amount of "partial penalty" might still be worth the 800 LP
o Hex D: ditto as C, but it has 1000 LP

What do people think?



Jdane -> RE: Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/14/2020 3:08:40 AM)

Sorry, I have too little brain power to process your latest message right now (will try if nobody beats me to it), but I think I've figured out what happens in the study case I provided.

Organic logistics of the militia battalion could reach out to the fork in the road near Buchhofen. There they grabbed the 6 LIS' worth of food they requested and started trekking back. Done. Let's forget about this. (Notice most of the trip was made by road which is optimal.)

The motorized regiment couldn't reach further than Zoatvar. Thus, the trucks from Omicron soldiered on carrying 35 LIS' worth of food and fuel until Zoatvar, which the regiment's organic logistics could then reach, grab and bring back to the unit over yonder. (Notice most of the trip was made cross country which is doable but more costly in Org- sorry Operational Logistics Action Points (That's a mouthful.).)

The hex next Zoatvar tells us 41 LIS' worth of supplies were carried through, from which 6 are coming from way back near bloody Buchhofen carried by the battalion's organic logistics and 35 were just grabbed from Zoatvar by the motorized regiment's organic logistics. Then the 6 are delivered to the battalion and the 35 carry onto the regiment.

Bam. All is explained. Except the fact that fuel does not apparently weigh 0.

And I'm going to sleep soon. [>:]



jpwrunyan -> RE: Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/14/2020 4:02:55 AM)

I'm about to sleep as well. I follow your description of the pick-up points and I think we're on the same page. The one militia traveled up-road (down-road?) to Zoatvar because they could do so freely within 50 OP and that hex has more LP points in it anyway. With 256 LP, it's the best pick up spot within no-penalty range! But the 19 motorized militia has to travel to the hex further north to pick up their stuff. So the trucks that transfer goods at Zoatfar are now free and that's why we see an *increase* in LP in the next hex north (until OP come and pick up at the end of the road).

I think one thing that also was confusing is we can't see the number underneath that one militia unit at the end of the road. I'm curious what its LP value is...
The other thing is I gotta remember that once a unit uses its OP to go pick up goods, those points are returned to the road network and that's what's causing the counter-intuitive increase in LP further down these roads.


Anyway, I might have an answer to my previous question about what the partial penalty for units exceeding 50 OP range to carry goods is. The manual says that the *max* OP distance is 150. Hmm... 150 and 50... that's a neat coincidence. I have a hunch that the penalty for partial pick up from OP is directly proportional to the amount minus 50 with no penalty as the minimum. It might be a direct percentage. For example, if a unit spends 60 OP to get to its pick-up spot, it has 60 - 50 = 10% penalty to its pick-up amount. That would put the penalty at 150 range as 100%. It might be better to think less in terms of "penalty" and more in terms of "efficiency" ie how much is picked up.

In psuedo code:

percentage picked up = Math.min(150 - OP, 100) / 100

I divide by 100 to get a decimal value 0 to 1. This formula gives us the "no penalty pick up" stated in the manual for up to 50 OP.

I don't think this formula is anywhere in the manual. It's just my guess. I'm gonna try to see if it holds up. But the math is elegant and simple at least.

So let's say your 19 Militia unit is spending 24 OP to get 35 LIS now. If it goes three more hexess and spends 60 OP then that 35 will deteriorate 10% and become 31 (rounding up). I'll have to try checking that.

edit:
Another wish list item: I wish the GUI showed an icon indicating a unit pickup point on its network (and which unit!). Especially since OP paths and LP paths seem to overlap quite frequently.

Thanks for post the initial LP screen BTW. Seeing the 256 LP on Zoatvar definitely helped convince me.



jpwrunyan -> RE: Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/14/2020 4:12:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jdane
P.P.S. : I have not the slightest idea what those yellow points are representing.


Dude. WTF. I have *never* seen that before. You're talking about the yellow *numbers* right? It's like there's a new murder case to investigate before we've closed the last one.



Malevolence -> RE: Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/14/2020 5:31:52 AM)

You mean you don't know what those little yellow numbers in the image are?

[image]local://upfiles/34589/E9ED35DBDA4C424D97358AEE5DF0626F.jpg[/image]



DTurtle -> RE: Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/14/2020 8:33:28 AM)

They are new with the 1.03 patch:

quote:

-In the Logistics layer Initial and Current Points parts of roads between 2 nodes that have lower Logistical Points than both nodes will be highlighted in yellow and points shown as well




GodwinW -> RE: Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/14/2020 10:39:48 AM)

Pressing 6 on the keyboard helps understanding the Operational Logistics range of units. You'll get a feel for it rather quickly imo.



Jdane -> RE: Clarification needed for 5.11.1.2 Operational Logistics of Units (6/14/2020 1:15:04 PM)

I feel relieved to learn this is a new feature. I can't quite yet make much sense from it, but at least I know it is not a divine punishment for our sacrilegious and awkward attempts at unveiling the mysteries of the holy LIS.

I've decided I'll be playing more Shadow Empire and reading and writing less about it today. I'll come back to these parts later.



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