Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (Full Version)

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btonasse -> Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 7:08:11 PM)

Just bought the game and this happened (regular difficulty). I think on turn 4 a myriad of minor regime units appeared and just took all my hexes. When attacked the outcome was invariably defeat even when I had superior numbers. The only unit that had successful attacks was a walker I got via an event, but one unit could not stop 10+ counters surrounding me from every side. And even the walker couldn't beat some of these units that had 100%+ entrenchment bonus even though they had just entered a hex the turn before (?).

How am I supposed to avoid this? Is this just bad luck or am I missing something? Thanks in advance, any insight is welcome!



Hazard151 -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 7:11:20 PM)

Bad luck, sounds like you have a slaver/raider neighbour.



Frostwave -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 7:12:55 PM)

First thing welcome, second beginner is best place to start its not like other games beginner will give you a run for your money regular might be a bit hard for a new player. Third watch Dastactics tutorial vids and read first half of manual the rest of it can be used as a reference guide.

link to tutorial vids

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4833342



76mm -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 7:13:54 PM)

Same thing happened to me, but on beginner and on Turn 3! At least I hadn't spent much time on the game...

Next game was completely and totally different, but still not easy. I would definitely recommend starting on beginner.



btonasse -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 7:18:30 PM)

Thanks guys, will reload on beginner difficulty and see how it goes.

Also, how do I improve recon on a hex?

I'm more or less halfway through the manual and don't remember having read anything about it, or maybe missed it.



jwarrenw13 -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 7:21:32 PM)

I think this is actually good to hear. It shows there is a very great deal of variety built into the game including untenable opening positions. Now I've started six games, all on beginner, and have not see a situation even approaching that, but I think it it good to hear.



Hazard151 -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 7:26:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: btonasse

Thanks guys, will reload on beginner difficulty and see how it goes.

Also, how do I improve recon on a hex?

I'm more or less halfway through the manual and don't remember having read anything about it, or maybe missed it.


Recon is a unit stat; your Recon Buggies provide a good number of it relative to their size and motorcycles are best at it, but the easiest way to increase recon is to just pile in more units.

I mean, a single hex is something like 200 km per side, so just a thousand foot soldiers in that hex probably aren't going to have a lot of information about the hexes around them, but a thousand of recon buggies sure will simply because they can move farther and faster.

Not that you'll need that many buggies. A single independent battalion should deliver something like 40 recon to all hexes around it off the top of my head, which is enough to detect the presence and type of enemy forces, if not an accurate count of numbers.



Frostwave -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 7:28:26 PM)

For the future to make things easier for you. When I have a question first thing I try is to check the manual. Quick way to do this is use this link copy it into Explorer's address bar hit enter or just click on link and after it loads it should have a search function located on top of page. Type in a few words related to your question and then you should see a number displaying the amount of results and to the right of that arrow buttons keep clicking on the right arrow until you find the section that has your answer. If that doesn't work then off to the forums to ask. Also good idea to use search function in the forums to see if someone else has asked the same question. Can save you time waiting for a response. Best of luck with your next game.

https://www.matrixgames.com/amazon/PDF/SE/Shadow_Empire_manual_EBOOK.pdf




scottrossi -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 7:50:51 PM)

When you're starting a new game, pay attention to the amount of raiders on a world. They'll crush you if they are right near you, and if there's too many, it's going to be a painful game. I've also had this happen on worlds that were 0% raiders, but with the nomads. They're usually smaller and easier to deal with, but still troublesome.



zgrssd -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 8:11:23 PM)

Recon is a unit stat. You need 40 on a hex for unit information - otherwise you can run into a ambush. 100 for a usefull combat chance preview. Note that some terrain provides "hide points", increasing the tresholds accordingly.

100 Infantery/1 Unit of Infantery usually have 1 Recon. So even a whole Brigade of 5000 Infantery has issues getting 50 onto any one hex.
10 Buggies/1 Unit of Buggies meanwhile has 5. So 50 Buggies have 25.
The best a Motorcycles, 7/Unit for 35 for a independant size 5 unit.

If you go with bigger formations later, it becomes a non issue. Infantery Regiments are 36 subunits, so 36 Recon. But they are giant sinks of Manpower. And usually a lot of small units are better.



FlashXAron_slith -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 8:15:03 PM)

LOL same her since turn 5 the raiders swarming around my city ...

started a normal game, but with epic research and no ministries and armies , only militia ...

already killed over 30000 raiders and managed to build a "MP batalion" , which was able to hold the city with the militia ...
don't know, if they ever will run out of manpower or the game cheat also in that field ... if so , it is senseless ...
I really hope we will get in some months an "routine which controls pc nations", which has to play with the same rules as human players,
than it will be a great game

Really wish the devs the best, that they could find a solution for this task !

[image]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/294143245544325121/722180164242374746/unknown.png[/image]



Laiders -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 8:30:01 PM)

Game explicitly states slavers do not need manpower in the same way. Their heavy presence in your zone allows them to recruit and replenish from your population or sell slaves of your pops to same effect. This is why you check them at your borders, if possible. This is in the manual. It is a feature not a bug and it is a key fact in defeating them. Encircle and destroy, encircle and destroy. It's not that hard.

BTW all people who have been stomped by raiders/slavers. I remember reading in the changelogs that there were some bugs allowing them to spawn with way more units than they are supposed to. Those are being addressed. You may want to consider playing on the latest patch and restarting if you got swarmed by totally disproportional forces as that may not have been intended.

Flash you were unlucky to even get raiders/slavers on a Siwa class. Why to you persist in highlighting the game in its worse possible light using misleading, disingenuous and partial information to discourage new players? Why do you also persist in never reading the manual even when explicitly told to and when sections of it explaining your problem are quoted at you?

EDIT: apologies Flash those are definitely raiders as they have a zone. See above bug. Militia will keep coming until city pop is out. Depopulating a city will take a while. Encircle and destroy, encircle and destroy. They are only militia and have all the staying power of wet tissue paper without makeshift vechile support.

If you have buyer's regret, talk to Matrix Support about a refund. If you have questions learning the game, ask. If you have constructive criticism, then critique constructively. If you just want to sh*tpost, go somewhere else.



zgrssd -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 8:34:23 PM)

Did you ever have a wide defensive line? Something like 1 unit per hex, in a 10+ hex line?

Encirclement is a very dangerous thing in this game. But so is entrechnment on the defense. And those enemy troops are only militia quality.
That being said, this terrain seems unusually flat. Even infantry can only go up to 50 Entrenchment there.



MC456 -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 8:44:00 PM)

An MG Infantry Brigade is a perfect starter as your first multi-unit military recruitment. At the start of the game you can use your militia to defend key points, in which case they will also get entrenchment bonuses as defenders. Surrounding enemy formations with your 5 infantry battalions will make quick work of them. Try to get an attack from at least 3 directions. Or better yet, just let them run into your machine guns and it will be a meatgrinder for them.

Attach an Artillery battalion or Light Armor (with howitzers) battalion to your brigade and it will be piss easy.



Hazard151 -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 8:45:50 PM)

Yeah, artillery's great advantage is that it blows apart entrenchments. Opening up with a bombardment before performing a normal attack is pretty effective.



btonasse -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 9:53:17 PM)

To all (but the 'funny' guy, of course): thanks for your invaluable tips!



76mm -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 10:08:31 PM)

Just started a new game at the beginner level in which my neighbors are slavers. They have no cities or resources in their territory, yet their army is bigger than mine, and they have tanks at the very beginning of the game. To top things off, a two hundred man slaver battalion has held off my 3000 man regiment for several turns in a row, inflicting heavy losses.

While I'm wrestling with the slavers, who have absolutely nothing worth conquering, my other neighbors are now encroaching from two other directions.

In my opinion the slavers need to be nerfed, because this isn't fun at all.



Naselus -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 10:09:29 PM)

Raiders and other minors will (and should) never play by the same rules as the player. They're the equivalent of Civ's Barbarians, they're not intended to be other nations really. They're really only dangerous if you're on a low starting tech level, they fall apart very easily once you start to out-tech them - once you have a single decent unit of light armour you can pretty comfortably crush almost limitless numbers of them.



FAA -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 10:11:39 PM)

I’ve never seen that but I usually plan on planets with small populations, usually about 1 mil after the apocalypse, so minors don’t have as many men I think.



76mm -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 10:56:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naselus
They're really only dangerous if you're on a low starting tech level, they fall apart very easily once you start to out-tech them - once you have a single decent unit of light armour you can pretty comfortably crush almost limitless numbers of them.

Yes, I always start with lower tech levels, but I thought that meant that everyone started at lower tech levels, not just me?

Besides that fact that it will take my research some time to get light armor, in my last two games I've struggled to build even infantry, because I have no IP or metal. And in the last game, the infantry I did build was slaughtered by a vastly smaller slaver infantry force.

If I keep having to abandon 3/4 of my starts because of stuff like this, I'm not sure this is the game for me.



Laiders -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 11:05:38 PM)

^ Weird. Are you playing on Siwas on beginner? If you are raiders/slavers should not be this frequent or deadly.

MG infantry, single brigade, with an attached recon buggy battalion should be able to wipe all raiders by pushing them into pockets and getting that sweet, sweet 200% concentric bonus. Even without the buggies attached, you still get 100% bonus for full encirclement with mixed HQs. Note do not add militia units to an encirclement attack with units from the same HQ as you reduce the bonus. In this case it is worth using them to bombard, even though they are godawful at it, or better to encircle their own pocket. Units under a SHQ can only ever get a 100% concentric attack bonus.

Slavers are much harder and may need tuning down, especially on beginner.

Tech levels means all majors start at the same tech level. Minors do not scale with tech much. T4 will put you at a significant advantage, along with all other majors. Some minors start at functionally higher tech for the first 20 - 30 turns depending on council choices due to getting makeshift vehicles, particularly armour. These are not very strong but they will bully single infantry battalions and militia in open ground.



Naselus -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 11:14:29 PM)

Everyone starts with lower tech levels at T3 start, but movie's disadvantages are much more pronounced as the tech levels to up. Militia are very poor compares to real units and the more real units you start with unlocked, the easier it is to quickly raise good offensive units to fight them - and to builds up a solid industrial base to support doing so, too. The primitive start is harder than later starts precisely because minors are so much more challenging.

On the low tech start, you only have a very, very defensive units for the most part - infantry and machine guns are just inherently bad at attacking. Buggies are your best bet, but they're very fragile compared to later armoured units. What you really want is howitzer armed tanks supported by artillery, which will take a while to get to from the stone age start.

Form lines, entrench and dig in, don't play offensively til you have the tools. Expand away from the slavers and just try to contain them with entrenched machine gunners til you have the right tools for the job.



budd -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 11:33:15 PM)

I've had my problems with slavers, you have to knock them out early, of course easier said then done, at least for me. I just lost another game. Lasted about 60 turns, metal was my problem. Only one metal resource, and the private business took it and i never had the 1000 coin to nationalize it. Prospecting turned up 8 oil hexes, but only one metal. Took forever to get my IP factory built with the lack of metal, built an oil refinery that took awhile also. I had a lot of territory, i was searching for metal, but only had my militia, one army,and 3 independent buggies to defend. I knew sooner or later it was coming, there were testing my borders. It was just so slow building stuff because of the metal and IP shortage, while trying to upgrade my IP factory and develop oil refineries[needed the cash] i started to run out of food as my population grew. Pretty soon not enough food to go around, **** started to go bad.......and right then...bam..got hit by a minor, rolled me up and finished me off...It was great[:D]



budd -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 11:34:20 PM)

Hey 76mm, you try the one army start. I always play with the one army start now.



76mm -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 11:35:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Laiders
^ Weird. Are you playing on Siwas on beginner? If you are raiders/slavers should not be this frequent or deadly.

MG infantry, single brigade, with an attached recon buggy battalion should be able to wipe all raiders by pushing them into pockets and getting that sweet, sweet 200% concentric bonus.

All games on beginner, last few on Siwas, before that unclassified.

Infantry brigade? haha, I can't build more than 1-2 infantry battalions for the first several turns, until I have a metals mine and industry to provide metal and IP. And I need those battalions to fend off the roving giant crabs, free folk, etc. If there are raiders as well, forget it. The last game, which I described above, IIRC had a 25% raider population, but I wasn't sure if that was "too high". Now I think it was.

This game, same shortage of resources and lots of aggressive life, but no raiders, so perhaps I'll survive.



76mm -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/15/2020 11:37:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: budd
Hey 76mm, you try the one army start. I always play with the one army start now.

haven't tried that yet...so are your enemies scaled up as well if you start with an army? If so, not sure it would help much...



Laiders -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/16/2020 12:22:28 AM)

Then it's a prioritisation issue. If you encounter raiders early, getting a brigade out becomes priority. If pops starve to fund getting a brigade into the field and supplied, then no jokes they starve a turn.

Similarly a lot of new/inexperienced players do not prioritise nationalising their private truck station. You do this pretty much on first turn every time. Certainly within the first 10. It is too important not to. You cannot expand without that truck station nationalised.

I just fired up a quick moon game on regular. Harsh planet really, mostly took the rolls I got. Deliberately rerolled to eliminate mountains. This is six of one half a dozen other because minors get supply in mountains but overall mountains provide a strong defensive advantage against raiders. Lucked out a bit with a good disaster card, paranoia. Paranoia is a good card worth playing if you have unrest problems even if you don't need FP. It's pretty much a must play this early. I get archives, too expensive, 1000 credits and 50 PP as my fate cards. Both the credits and the PP, normally weak options, are brought around turn 5 to stabilise my economy and help me aggressively recruit leaders. I open with a recycling facility, luck again hit with city on ruins and triple ruins nearby. Takes about 6 turns to build due to IP constraints. Private econ eventually gets a water mine on the water deposit. More food, so I can stop buying it, is next.

Hold a ridge line with my militia against two raiders, who declared war turns 2 and 3. Not too many engagements but skirmishing every turn. Luckily one (A), after some initial probes, backed right off when I bloodied him on the ridge but the other (B) has been pretty aggressive. A is coming back into play now and has helped foul up an encirclement, along with the general godawfulness of militia. I am used to higher IP starts at the moment, due to playing on high pop Siwas, so I make the mistake of thinking I have some buggies and reg inf when I do not. I lose a militia unit outright to cockiness on my first botched encirclement attempt, motorised too, and lose a free adventurer militia who starve and are destroyed by roving units at some point. Link up became impossible due to the aggressive B raider.

A half strength inf MG brigade was raised turn 10. I sacrificed militancy, econ and FP to get there but it is done. I will probably be able to mop both raiders now and get two new populated zones. Minimally my city is permanently secure to the east because there is no way raiders take a ridge line from regular MG inf. I will be able to bring them to full strength in 2 to 3 turns. TBH, just sitting for 3 turns and not building anything would probably have got there faster but with even less of an econ base to then reinforce and support the inf.

If I can do it on regular in 11 turns on a moon facing down two raiders speedplaying to prove a point (albeit with a weirdly lucky start) then it will be possible on Siwa on beginner.

If you have your starting autosave for your last problem game, share it and I will either post or PM you a break down of my opening moves with screens. Quite serious about that offer BTW though can't do it now as it's late and I have work tomorrow.

If you want me to do this again with a harder moon, I'm happy to. Also happy to provide a breakdown with screens of these moon games.

This is not to brag. I am not fantastic at the game yet and I made several mistakes in this game, including ones I haven't noticed due to speed. My opener profiles and councils (I opened EC) where probably not optimal for a situation where warfare is inevitable early and required to stabilse. But I am not dead and probably cannot be finished by these two raiders. I have enough cash to buy off any more, though I hope my other neighbor is a scavenger or, at least, a distracted raider. It's more to say it's possible and things will get easier even if it does not feel like it will.

EDIT: all scaling options apply only to majors not minors. Minors will start with standard troops. You will start with a free brigade and even stronger militia. Mixed blessing as it can cause serious resource and logistics issues if you do not know how to handle these properly and ramp them aggressively early.

Just realised with the FP I could have bribed a raider and not tanked my militancy and relations. 1000 credits is a lot of money early. Goddamn...



76mm -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/16/2020 1:02:18 AM)

hmmm, I don't play on moons, I usually play on Siwas, with alien monsters or one sort or another. I have no idea how different they are, other than that the various creatures are a real pain.

For me to prioritize starting with a brigade, I would have to basically sit in my home city for several turns until I had enough resources to do it, meanwhile the neighbors would be drawing the noose around me. Maybe next time I'll try it, but I'll be surprised it if does much good. Last game I created a regiment instead of a battalion, only to see it completely fail vs a small raider unit.



Laiders -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/16/2020 1:06:46 AM)

Moons are much, much harder than Siwas. They are the hardest planet type by far. They have the most chance to spawn raiders and slavers and other aggressive minors. They have very poor resources, poor terrain and no habitability. That's the whole point.

I'll roll a Siwa quick with as many raiders I can get and as many monsters. I'll post a quick guide (not AAR but guide) to my opening moves, on regular, after work tomorrow. Maybe in the morning if I am super quick about it. I'll do this win or fail to show how I react and to point out what is unwinnable, for me, early. If you get an unwinnable start and recognise it there is no shame in rerolling.

My point again is it's possible to stabilise most, though not all, situations.

EDIT: stories on or off out of interest? They are a mixed blessing.

Planet rolled. Aggressive 5m carnivores, 2 species of big herbivores. Human supporting atmo but very arid. Widespread deserts. Decent pop for all that 150 mil pre and 3 mil post. 30% raiders. Fingers cross I'll end up in a desert surrounded by raiders and we'll see.



76mm -> RE: Overwhelmed by minor regime less than 5 turns into the game (6/16/2020 1:46:06 AM)

Sounds interesting, thanks. Current game started OK, but happiness has been plunging relentlessly, and now all of my units are out of supply... Probably time for me to hang up the game for awhile and finish RTFM and watching the tutorials, because not getting very far on my own.



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