Really getting tired of impervious creatures (Full Version)

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76mm -> Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 4:13:06 AM)

Aren't there any creature on any of these planets that can be killed by rifles? This is really getting kind of old, having multiple battalions of infantry getting wiped out by every single creature out there. I've had an entire infantry brigade (with offensive posture) attacking some kind of land sharks* for about 5 turns in a row, with virtually no loss to the creatures. I've got no heavier weapons right now, and it will be quite a while before I have them.

Especially since many of these creatures are supposedly herbivores, I don't see why they constantly migrate towards towns/roads, and why they are so hard to kill without suffering massive losses?

*As an aside, it would be nice if the artwork was sort of compatible with the creature it is supposed to represent. This game I've got some shark-looking things attacking me on land, and last game I had "crabs" that looked like wolves.



scottrossi -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 5:39:19 AM)

Honestly, until you get better tech and upgrade, or get some good GR stuff early on, your best bet is to fight defensively. Maybe if you're lucky and your militia is artillery heavy you can also push them back.



Malevolence -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 6:00:02 AM)

[image]local://upfiles/34589/CF85972714754F7A923FB3FAC6FFB344.jpg[/image]

I would be fine with them if they didn't change zone boundaries and borders.

I admit to baiting them toward my units and into a major regimes border because a war declaration was too much of a regime stats hit.

They are nuisances. That would be good, but they do require too much firepower to eliminate.

They should slow progress, not halt it.

With aircraft, will we be forced to dogfight pterodactys too?

That said, I don't want the character they add to go away. It's cool when you have four militia units in early game scavenging for food. It just gets tedious after awhile.

One infantry battalion should wipe their unit, but that means that unit gets delayed a turn... maybe two. They should retreat rather than do serious damage.



Cornuthaum -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 6:05:33 AM)

I have a few screenshots of a Siwa planet I started on 1.03b2 where it's just wild with the wildlife and marauders. Quite literally.

[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/270005292010307584/723234977726201997/unknown.png[/img]

My brave border troops have some slight advantages, yes (heavy battledress is awesome) but if I'd started *there* instead of a relatively monster-free zone I'd have been screwed.



Malevolence -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 6:06:58 AM)

As an aside, having watched Spy Eye In The Sky now for many turns. They rarely, if ever penetrate, into AI controlled territory on their own.

AI regimes run into them expanding.



Malevolence -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 6:08:03 AM)

Wow that beats mine!



lloydster4 -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 6:17:45 AM)

Definitely seems like creatures could use some tweaks. In my (admittedly) limited experience:

1) I've only come across "behemoths." Creatures with relatively impressive stats, but low numbers. Would be cool to see human-like creatures or "swarms" (low stats, high numbers)
2) As far as I can tell, every creature stack is generated at the beginning of the game. Once killed, they are gone for good.
3) I've only seen apex predators, and only one variety per planet. Might be cool to have some creatures that are more like pests or prey. Hunting for food as an alternative to farming?

More to your point OP, you might try using buggies in the early game to supplement your infantry brigades. They typically have much stronger attack values to start.



t1it -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 7:43:35 AM)

Second the suggestion these creatures probably shouldn't affect borders at all, I mean backstabbing minors are more than enough for that. One of the few things in this game (surprisingly enough) that's both genuinely annoying and IMO, unrealistic.



ramnblam -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 8:20:39 AM)

The giant animals just want love and affection guys, help them out.



Palora -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 1:05:19 PM)

Depends on the type of creatures there are.
Against 1-2m tall animals I had no problems, infantry could hold the line and the buggies could hunt all of them down with no casualties.
Against 6m tall enemies with armored plates... the buggies didn't cut it at all.

Check their stats, prepare accordingly. If you got unlucky and have a planet with armored maneaters, better build RPGs and anti-tank guns.



Cornuthaum -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 1:26:27 PM)

I basically pushed all of my imperial expansion over 120 turns with buggies - the Toyota Wars of the future are real. Get a good base design (115 structural design or better, ideally) and then keep iterating on it. Have roving task forces of 5 buggy batallions (I wish I could give them a Buggy OHQ too) working together to encircle one enemy unit by cutting off all its retreat paths (you don't need to fully encircle it with *units*, just make sure it has no valid retreat path) then yeet your buggies in.

Advanced Machinegun Buggies with 25mm polymer plate will basically last you the entire game, though you can/should upgrade the weapons anyways just to make things die faster when your horde of doombuggies has a go at them



zgrssd -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 1:42:57 PM)

Using conventional military vs large animal groups. And failing at that. Where have I heard of that one before? Oh right:
The Great Australian Emu War of 1932

In the ende they just put a bounty on emus, wich worked out to a way better reduction.

We need some of those other tools to deal with animals. Some that do not involve using miltiary units.
Maybe we could adapt such bounties? Basically you pay free folk that is all over the place for killing the animals, as they press into your borders. The "enemy" would have loses just by bying a annoynce for you. And in turn, you miltiary would have a much easier time cleaning up the stragglers.



Cornuthaum -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 2:13:18 PM)

honestly, emus do not compare to 17 meter sized shrimp-analogue apex predators with the combat stats of light tanks.

because i really did need military units to deal with those :V



76mm -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 2:18:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence
I would be fine with them if they didn't change zone boundaries and borders.
***
They are nuisances. That would be good, but they do require too much firepower to eliminate.

They should slow progress, not halt it.
***
That said, I don't want the character they add to go away. It's cool when you have four militia units in early game scavenging for food. It just gets tedious after awhile.

One infantry battalion should wipe their unit, but that means that unit gets delayed a turn... maybe two. They should retreat rather than do serious damage.

Yeah, I totally agree with everything you say. I don't want them to go away, I just don't want them to impervious to every weapon I have,and to not change boundaries.



76mm -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 2:21:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
We need some of those other tools to deal with animals. Some that do not involve using miltiary units.
Maybe we could adapt such bounties? Basically you pay free folk that is all over the place for killing the animals, as they press into your borders. The "enemy" would have loses just by bying a annoynce for you. And in turn, you miltiary would have a much easier time cleaning up the stragglers.

Good idea! You have to think that anyone living with these creatures for hundreds of years would know how to outsmart/kill them. Instead, my entire infantry brigade is having *zero* effect on a bicrab unit camped right outside my capital for about 10 turns.



76mm -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 2:22:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cornuthaum
I have a few screenshots of a Siwa have a few screenshots of a Siwa planet I started on 1.03b2 where it's just wild with the wildlife and marauders. Quite literally.

OMG, you've got me beat!



Cornuthaum -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 2:27:39 PM)

And this is after I pushed up to there with a reinforced brigade of mech inf through another screen's worth of creatures and marauders. High-food-density siwa planets can get genuinely more menacing than Medusa ones



Palora -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 3:43:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cornuthaum

I have a few screenshots of a Siwa planet I started on 1.03b2 where it's just wild with the wildlife and marauders. Quite literally.



I think I've been to that one :D

[image]https://i.imgur.com/jfuo8hW.jpg[/image]
[image]https://i.imgur.com/8eHMLVo.jpg[/image]

And all of them were slowly coming for me.



zgrssd -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 3:48:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cornuthaum

And this is after I pushed up to there with a reinforced brigade of mech inf through another screen's worth of creatures and marauders. High-food-density siwa planets can get genuinely more menacing than Medusa ones

There is too little life.
And there is too much life.



Meteor2 -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 3:49:37 PM)

Despite the sci-fi environment and all fantasy, organic, more or less dump creatures, should have NO chance against any modern weapon.
I can not imagine any lifeform (other than very, very, very exotic), that survives a burst from an MG.
The „armor“ of the creature has to be of 1 cm solid metal.
Do we need another concept or more fantasy?



Malevolence -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 4:00:40 PM)

A suggestion from a long time ago (a few days)... Hunting!



Malevolence -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 4:13:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Using conventional military vs large animal groups. And failing at that. Where have I heard of that one before? Oh right:
The Great Australian Emu War of 1932


Armed with two Lewis guns (MG's) and 10,000 rounds of ammunition! They should have called the Americans. We could throw together 10x the weapons and ammunition on a Saturday afternoon with what's available in my suburban cul de sac. [:D]



GodwinW -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 7:19:45 PM)

I love that wildlife can be very strong (all non-strong wildlife is just ignored by the game anyway (I'm not going to believe planets have just 5 lifeforms on them)), variety is king. I really want more variety, not less (I've rolled a start on a tiny island near the north pole without roads once in 1.01, been trying to get that again in 1.03 but alas not happened so far!).

You can check the offensiveness and competitiveness of wildlife in the auxiliary pages, but it would be nice if their strength/power was included in the main Biosphere page.
Something like:

Wildlife danger: None, Minimal, Harsh, Extreme



Malevolence -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 7:23:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

I love that wildlife can be very strong (all non-strong wildlife is just ignored by the game anyway (I'm not going to believe planets have just 5 lifeforms on them)), variety is king. I really want more variety, not less (I've rolled a start on a tiny island near the north pole without roads once in 1.01, been trying to get that again in 1.03 but alas not happened so far!).

You can check the offensiveness and competitiveness of wildlife in the auxiliary pages, but it would be nice if their strength/power was included in the main Biosphere page.
Something like:

Wildlife danger: None, Minimal, Harsh, Extreme


That's a great idea!




demiare -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 7:41:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Meteor2
I can not imagine any lifeform (other than very, very, very exotic), that survives a burst from an MG.
The „armor“ of the creature has to be of 1 cm solid metal.
Do we need another concept or more fantasy?


I don't want to disappoint you but 1cm of metal will not stop MG military-grade ammo. Especially from vehicle-based MG :)
Any water-based large lifeform will have zero chances against modern military - even rifles will deal mortal wounds to it (as bullet hits lead to necrosis) plus artillery & anti-tank weapons will easily kill them. People are tricked by endless action movies as in real life most of times a single bullet hit is a ticket to hospital.

And game already is a heavy fantasy. Solar plants available before laser or at least electric engine techs and ignoring planet orbit radius, "slavers" and "raiders" instead of farmers on lifeless planets, howitzers as separate option for tank design, 300mm guns for not mechanized artillery, tactical nukes researched before strategic ones, current values of ammo consumption... All this is a pure fantasy.

My IMHO - combat treat from alien lifeforms should be an option, like cults and so on (or at least "powerful lifeform" as an option and without it animal stats should at worst be equal to militia infantry). It add nothing to game, it's completely unrealistic (same as cults with stat boosts and major corporations in post-apocalypse world). Someone will like it, true, but for me it's a big facepalm when I see pack of animals having soft attack value of artillery or MG.



Malevolence -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 7:59:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

I don't want to disappoint you but 1cm of metal will not stop MG military-grade ammo. Especially from vehicle-based MG :)
Any water-based large lifeform will have zero chances against modern military - even rifles will deal mortal wounds to it (as bullet hits lead to necrosis) plus artillery & anti-tank weapons will easily kill them. People are tricked by endless action movies as in real life most of times a single bullet hit is a ticket to hospital.

And game already is a heavy fantasy. Solar plants available before laser or at least electric engine techs and ignoring planet orbit radius, "slavers" and "raiders" instead of farmers on lifeless planets, howitzers as separate option for tank design, 300mm guns for not mechanized artillery, tactical nukes researched before strategic ones, current values of ammo consumption... All this is a pure fantasy.

My IMHO - combat treat from alien lifeforms should be an option, like cults and so on (or at least "powerful lifeform" as an option and without it animal stats should at worst be equal to militia infantry). It add nothing to game, it's completely unrealistic (same as cults with stat boosts and major corporations in post-apocalypse world). Someone will like it, true, but for me it's a big facepalm when I see pack of animals having soft attack value of artillery or MG.


Indeed; science fantasy. War in the East 2 will be ready soon™. Stick around and I'll see you there!



Meteor2 -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 8:11:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

quote:

ORIGINAL: Meteor2
I can not imagine any lifeform (other than very, very, very exotic), that survives a burst from an MG.
The „armor“ of the creature has to be of 1 cm solid metal.
Do we need another concept or more fantasy?


I don't want to disappoint you but 1cm of metal will not stop MG military-grade ammo. Especially from vehicle-based MG :)
Any water-based large lifeform will have zero chances against modern military - even rifles will deal mortal wounds to it (as bullet hits lead to necrosis) plus artillery & anti-tank weapons will easily kill them. People are tricked by endless action movies as in real life most of times a single bullet hit is a ticket to hospital.

And game already is a heavy fantasy. Solar plants available before laser or at least electric engine techs and ignoring planet orbit radius, "slavers" and "raiders" instead of farmers on lifeless planets, howitzers as separate option for tank design, 300mm guns for not mechanized artillery, tactical nukes researched before strategic ones, current values of ammo consumption... All this is a pure fantasy.

My IMHO - combat treat from alien lifeforms should be an option, like cults and so on (or at least "powerful lifeform" as an option and without it animal stats should at worst be equal to militia infantry). It add nothing to game, it's completely unrealistic (same as cults with stat boosts and major corporations in post-apocalypse world). Someone will like it, true, but for me it's a big facepalm when I see pack of animals having soft attack value of artillery or MG.


Right, the 1 cm of metall was only a picture of the problem.
A little bit more „realism“ regarding firepower, damage or sequence of develpoment would be welcome.
The imagination of the struggle for survive on a dangerous surface of a planet should not be damaged by
totally unrealictic pictures. And organic lifeforms attacking MG or flamethrowers is a little bit to much. [8|]




Malevolence -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 8:30:34 PM)

So you will not be at the Starship Troopers - Terran Command launch party? [:D]

I'm friends with many that will not play wargames unless they are historical. It's a spectrum, and I get that you're on it.



zgrssd -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 9:22:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Meteor2

Despite the sci-fi environment and all fantasy, organic, more or less dump creatures, should have NO chance against any modern weapon.
I can not imagine any lifeform (other than very, very, very exotic), that survives a burst from an MG.
The „armor“ of the creature has to be of 1 cm solid metal.
Do we need another concept or more fantasy?

That is what the Australians thought when they send the Army vs Emus. You could kill one really, really hard. But that does not help against the other 99 in his subunit wich then moved away 1-2km. And then came back a hour after you left.
And those groups are more then just 1 subunit.

At their best, the Task Force vs the Emu needed 10 bullets per confirmed killed Emu. And that is a Emu. The only danger was from them eating the fields!



76mm -> RE: Really getting tired of impervious creatures (6/20/2020 9:37:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
At their best, the Task Force vs the Emu needed 10 bullets per confirmed killed Emu. And that is a Emu. The only danger was from them eating the fields!

While I'm not familiar with the Great Emu War, I can only assume that the emus fled when fired upon rather than standing their ground, and did not inflict massive casualties on the attacking troops?

If these assumptions are incorrect, it looks like I've got some interesting reading ahead of me...



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