Realistic communications delay (Full Version)

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SunlitZelkova -> Realistic communications delay (6/20/2020 9:20:51 PM)

Hi,

I often play the game as both sides, acting as an umpire. Most likely, when people play the game, the moment their radar picks up a group of fighters or something, they can and will redirect their own fighters to attack it. Or, if planes with ARMs and cluster bombs on a SEAD mission are nearing the launch distance for the missiles, and an AWACS suddenly detects enemy fighters heading to intercept them, they can immediately have them launch their missiles but then cancel the cluster bomb strike and get the strike planes out of harms way, and also send fighters to attack the enemy interceptors. Those aren't the best examples, but stuff sort of like that.

I was wondering if there is a delay in certain situations, where the information received must go up the chain of command and then be sent to whoever needs it. If an AWACS is present, this may not a major thing, but if a ground radar site picks something up, there might be a delay while it goes from the radar crew, to the radar unit commander, to the main air defence command, and then to interceptors. Also, in the example just now, some time would be needed to figure out exactly what orders to give the interceptors (attack all at once or one section at a time?), this is also a big thing for giving new orders to strike planes.

Another thing is the sharing of information depending on the unit. If a SEAL team spots a MANPADS near a SAM site that was previously thought to have no SHORAD, and strike planes with dumb bombs are due to attack the SAM site very soon, in the game the strike planes will know immediately and can adjust their attack accordingly. However in real life the SEALs would need to contact whoever is "above them" in that scenario, and then this info would need to be sent up the chain of command to whoever is in charge of the strike on the SAM site, and then given to the pilots. Would the SEAL team even be able to contact anyone at all depending on their orders? And certainly, the strike plane pilots would not know about the MANPADS for awhile.

This opens up a question I will ask in another post, about communications: if the SEAL team does try to contact someone, would this reveal their position to the enemy (how effective is COMINT/detection via communications monitoring in the present).

My question is, about how long would it take for information to be sent from unit to unit?

I would like to clarify that I am asking this because I plan to manually do this by waiting a certain amount of time to give orders to units, not because I think something like this should be implemented in the game.



Rory Noonan -> RE: Realistic communications delay (6/22/2020 1:52:15 AM)

It depends.

In the case of close air support a ground unit will typically be in direct contact with the aircraft providing support, so it may be a very short feedback loop for information to get to the aircraft. How useful that information is, and how accurate it is is another matter--with SOFLAM type technology you can get GPS coordinates for a target and transmit that data very quickly, but that's not available to everyone all the time.

In the case of pre-planned strikes, there may be no direct communication between units on the ground and the strike aircraft. This can be further compllicated by units from different services or even different countries in a coalition.

Interception of communications also depends; if you are using unencrypted radio communications your enemy has just as good of a chance of hearing you as your intended recipient. Unencrypted radio is quite rare in professional military use, although it is not unheard of (ships in particular may need to communicate with nearby vessels).

As to how quickly that information can be made use of, it really depends again. An EP-3 or other dedicated ELINT asset might be able to get a very good estimate of location quite quickly, while a guy sitting on a rooftop with a shortwave radio, compass and a map is going to be much slower and more open to error.

To model this in game, I would take into account the time period (the more recent, the faster), technological level of the units, and how closely integrated the two communicating units are--i.e. whether they're in the same chain of command or from different branches etc.



SeaQueen -> RE: Realistic communications delay (6/22/2020 8:30:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SunlitZelkova
I was wondering if there is a delay in certain situations, where the information received must go up the chain of command and then be sent to whoever needs it.


This was the idea behind an OODA loop and is controlled accordingly.

quote:


However in real life the SEALs would need to contact whoever is "above them" in that scenario, and then this info would need to be sent up the chain of command to whoever is in charge of the strike on the SAM site, and then given to the pilots. Would the SEAL team even be able to contact anyone at all depending on their orders? And certainly, the strike plane pilots would not know about the MANPADS for awhile.


Not necessarily. People have a very rigid vision of military C2 as controlled by a wiring diagram somewhere. Air and sea C2 is often much more fluid than ground force C2. It also depends on the relationship between the SEAL time and the strikers. For example, the SEAL time was calling in CAS, then there might be a JFAC or FAC amongst them who would be in direct communications with the strikers as they approached their target area specifically briefing them on the threats in the area.

quote:


This opens up a question I will ask in another post, about communications: if the SEAL team does try to contact someone, would this reveal their position to the enemy (how effective is COMINT/detection via communications monitoring in the present).


There isn't really COMINT modeled in Command. In real life, it would depend a lot on the kinds of equipment and communications going on. It might have no impact at all!


quote:


My question is, about how long would it take for information to be sent from unit to unit?


It depends on the Command relationships and technologies in question. Command does an okay job of modeling the data links between units, although in my experience the default database actually underestimates the communications ability of units. It tends to assume a very rigid and stovepiped C2 model. Depending on the period or type of scenario in question, it might or might not apply.

quote:


I would like to clarify that I am asking this because I plan to manually do this by waiting a certain amount of time to give orders to units, not because I think something like this should be implemented in the game.



I think you've got your hands full. In real life, the ability of a unit to communicate with another unit or platform depends on many variables. Command relationships are one of them, as are technological questions like the available bandwidth and frequencies in use. It would also depend on doctrine. Some nations are very rigid in the sense that one must not speak to anyone but their direct commander without permission. Others are much less rigid and encourage different units to coordinate across commands and missions in such a way that they work easily with one another. It also depends on the type of warfare. Ground units tend to have a much more rigid C2 structure than in the air or at sea and everyone more or less talks to everyone in a common C2 framework. It also depends on the scope of the scenario. A larger scenario would necessarily have more C2 related delays hence I prefer relatively small ones for realism's sake.



thewood1 -> RE: Realistic communications delay (6/22/2020 11:31:31 PM)

A combination of comms disruption, events, side changes, postures, and in some cases lua, can give you some pretty good analogs to both modern and cold war comms networks.

Of course, thats a lot of work and a normal person would balance that wish for "realism" vs. what they are trying to do with the game.



SeaQueen -> RE: Realistic communications delay (6/23/2020 1:18:36 AM)

quote:

Of course, thats a lot of work and a normal person would balance that wish for "realism" vs. what they are trying to do with the game.


A lot of the things comms delays are intended to address are actually better managed by just controlling the scope of the scenario in my opinion. It leads to better game play and is ultimately probably a better representation of how things actually work. It's important to recognize that a scenario doesn't have to include everything in order to generate realistic outcomes. Its only needs to include the relevant things for the problem at hand. I think sometimes people want to have scenarios that have "everything" in them as a way of avoiding responsibility for doing their homework and scoping the scenario down and trying to understand the problem.



SunlitZelkova -> RE: Realistic communications delay (6/23/2020 5:52:55 PM)

Thanks for the answers guys. On second thought, I don't think I will really take time to do this, except in special situations.



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