POWs and slaves (Full Version)

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Ekaton -> POWs and slaves (6/22/2020 2:25:04 PM)

If I'm not mistaken, enemies who surrender immediately disappear, it would be a great thing to be able to set regime's policy regarding those who surrender, separately for major and minor powers.

1. POWs - will require food and might act as a temporary workforce, perhaps in a dedicated facility, will raise your relationship with your enemy.
2. Enslavement - they become your population, perhaps a separate category, and you get a new civilian facility in your capital raising its QOL.
3. Eradication - controversial, but we already have things like wiping out sentient mutants or starving people to death as viable options. Unless you do it to mutants or slavers, perhaps, you get a huge relationship hit with other powers.
4. Welcome them - they become your pop, perhaps lowering loyalty and happiness for a while.

This could be set up as a regime policy and cause alignment shift. This would be particularly important on low-pop planet where every life matters (pun intended). Worlds I enjoyed the most all had about 1-2 mil population after the apocalypse, losing so much manpower on a planet like that is really odd, and killing POWs just isn't what I imagine my civ doing.



MatthewVilter -> RE: POWs and slaves (6/22/2020 9:34:27 PM)

I'm a little bit dubious that a lot of what you're writing about here is really in scope for this game. Aside from the added development challenge of managing a sensitive subject a quick look at for example Stellaris's update history will show that implementing and balancing a system for managing slavery and other types of stratification is a huge and difficult project.

I do definitely agree that it feels odd that units that surrender just...disappear. It seems like a pretty wide variety of prisoner treatments could all be very roughly modeled very similarly to the way freefolk settlements work — a population that sits on the map not doing much but slowly integrating into the zone city. Maybe if settlements like the freefolk ones we have now could have different "cultures"/origins tracked mass surrender events could create an asset like e.g. "Neutronflats POWs" (maybe a few hexes back from the front).

Maybe POWs would integrate slower on average but be less sensitive to city happiness but if they were liberated by their faction they would quickly return directly as recruits. There could be a few different types of settlements that could all behave differently.

For example you could also get "[faction] refugee camps" along our border if two of your neighbors are fighting a bloody war. Refugees would be eager to return to city life unless your city is really miserable in which case they would slowly join existing/create new freefolk settlements.



FAA -> RE: POWs and slaves (6/22/2020 10:29:17 PM)

At the very least, we need troops who surrender to join the population. Buying slaves increases it without creating a new category and that’s fine. Disappearing troops ruin immersion for me.



cspringer1234 -> RE: POWs and slaves (6/22/2020 11:50:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FAA

At the very least, we need troops who surrender to join the population. Buying slaves increases it without creating a new category and that’s fine. Disappearing troops ruin immersion for me.


It's not a bad idea. It could even be something that encourages some alternate form of troop / research that makes weapons of subduing instead of destruction. Riot troops, stun troops.. maybe a stratagem that encourages taking prisoners and lowers attack / defense strength.



Tomn -> RE: POWs and slaves (6/23/2020 6:16:47 AM)

It's worth noting that Vic isn't exactly a stranger to depictions of sensitive subjects, given that Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa forces you as the German commander to decide what to do about the Einsatzgruppen.



FAA -> RE: POWs and slaves (6/23/2020 8:43:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

It's worth noting that Vic isn't exactly a stranger to depictions of sensitive subjects, given that Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa forces you as the German commander to decide what to do about the Einsatzgruppen.


We can already buy and sell people as slaves, cruel experiments on them, I think the game can handle that. Plus, what we have at the moment, surrendering soldiers completely disappearing, the only thing we can assume is that they get slaughtered, not very PC either.

I just looked at my statistics - I have 900k population and about 150k soldiers, as I’m constantly fighting. Should all my men surrender, it would cause a huge imbalance in the world pop, which is extremely unrealistic.



zgrssd -> RE: POWs and slaves (6/23/2020 2:02:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MatthewVilter

I'm a little bit dubious that a lot of what you're writing about here is really in scope for this game. Aside from the added development challenge of managing a sensitive subject a quick look at for example Stellaris's update history will show that implementing and balancing a system for managing slavery and other types of stratification is a huge and difficult project.


Stellaris pop management is way too complicated for it's own good.
The one from Imperator: Rome? Way better comparision.
Shadow Empire is more I:R, with even more simplified Culture and no comparable Religion System.

But we do not even need that much. You could just manage slaves like you do in "Total War: Warhammer".
Enslaved people could just be "much cheaper workers" - only food, a fraction of the paymanent (to the overseers). Used first for public works.

Of course like all other "Salvage" approaches it would significantly change the balance from specific results and thus unit feats. Suddenly you want the enemy to retreat, rather then die.



Ekaton -> RE: POWs and slaves (6/23/2020 2:11:05 PM)

The only problem, I imagine, is whether the engine is capable of properly tracking the numbers. Some enemy soldiers die of hunger, especially if they don't surrender after losing their capital and retreating to the wastes. Only soldiers who surrender should be converted into pops.

If that's impossible, the next best thing would be to spawn "refugee centres" based on enemy's total losses. Abstract, not that realistic, but it would still be better than what we have now. If it generates fewer pops than surrender, maybe they just don't want to join, or die of disease in POW camps. If more, that means some undiscovered free folks who escape to your territories, or deserters, or anything else. If it produces pops even when no fights are going on, perhaps it's processing POWs captured earlier, or deserters, or refugees. It still answers more question than it makes you ask.



MatthewVilter -> RE: POWs and slaves (6/23/2020 8:18:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

...what we have at the moment, surrendering soldiers completely disappearing, the only thing we can assume is that they get slaughtered, not very PC either.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ekaton

...the next best thing would be to spawn "refugee centres" based on enemy's total losses. Abstract, not that realistic, but it would still be better than what we have now.

*snip*

It still answers more question than it makes you ask.


Agreed.



zgrssd -> RE: POWs and slaves (6/23/2020 10:24:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ekaton

The only problem, I imagine, is whether the engine is capable of properly tracking the numbers. Some enemy soldiers die of hunger, especially if they don't surrender after losing their capital and retreating to the wastes. Only soldiers who surrender should be converted into pops.


30-70% chance for a surrendering subunit to give you 100 POW. The average unit has 10 subunits, so it should average out.
I compare it to salvaging, because that is what it is - you are just salvaging manpower, intsead of IP, Ammo, Metals or Food.

A simple way to "integrate" them into your Society, would be to add them to the population while reducing Loyalty by 1.
Even them using the logistics System is optional.



Sarissofoi -> RE: POWs and slaves (6/24/2020 8:59:16 PM)

Shouldn't surrendering units also drop some metal(from equipment) and maybe some other stuff(like food/fuel/ammo)?



EuchreJack -> RE: POWs and slaves (6/25/2020 4:29:04 AM)

Semi-related: Animals should drop food when defeated (if they're edible).



LordAldrich -> RE: POWs and slaves (6/25/2020 6:36:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarissofoi

Shouldn't surrendering units also drop some metal(from equipment) and maybe some other stuff(like food/fuel/ammo)?


There are special unit attachments (what are those called? The priests and sapper teams and so on) that do this already. I can't remember which profile gives them off the top of my head, but there's definitely one that sells off salvage and gets you credits for it.



zgrssd -> RE: POWs and slaves (6/25/2020 7:14:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LordAldrich


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarissofoi

Shouldn't surrendering units also drop some metal(from equipment) and maybe some other stuff(like food/fuel/ammo)?


There are special unit attachments (what are those called? The priests and sapper teams and so on) that do this already. I can't remember which profile gives them off the top of my head, but there's definitely one that sells off salvage and gets you credits for it.


Economy -> Opportunusim, Scavenger Teams. But they only drop credits.



FAA -> RE: POWs and slaves (6/25/2020 8:56:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: LordAldrich


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarissofoi

Shouldn't surrendering units also drop some metal(from equipment) and maybe some other stuff(like food/fuel/ammo)?


There are special unit attachments (what are those called? The priests and sapper teams and so on) that do this already. I can't remember which profile gives them off the top of my head, but there's definitely one that sells off salvage and gets you credits for it.


Economy -> Opportunusim, Scavenger Teams. But they only drop credits.


But you should always be able to scavenge something. Metal is very precious on many worlds, it seems nonsensical that all that would go to waste. Or that precious manpower would be slaughtered after surrendering.



FAA -> RE: POWs and slaves (7/13/2020 4:56:25 PM)

Any chance we’ll see something like that soon?



Malevolence -> RE: POWs and slaves (7/13/2020 9:08:37 PM)

POWs +x Enforcement

Enslavement +x Commerce

Eradication +x Fist

Welcome them +x Heart

Let them go +x Government

Indoctrinate them +x Mind

[image]local://upfiles/34589/86E93ECE6CCE4E88B0BCD33A8084DA3C.jpg[/image]



jimwinsor -> RE: POWs and slaves (7/13/2020 10:38:14 PM)

I think the simplest way to handle this is to have a hex perk pop up randomly in your empire, a “POW Camp.” It would be created to store your first prisoners taken in battle (units that wave the white flag).

Each enemy would have its own separate POW Camp. The AI would also get a POW Camp of your prisoners too, if any. POW Camps could be liberated, which would return the manpower to your troop pool. Events or cards could interact with them, for example, Prisoner Exchange would trade prisoners for prisoners, etc.

Holding many prisoners would be a positive modifier towards the play of a Peace card, with some governments more susceptible to this than others. Once peace is established between countries, the population in the camps would be liberated to both sides, back to their troop pools.

If an enemy country gets completely defeated, then the POW Camp would transform into a basic Free Folk settlement of the appropriate population.



demiare -> RE: POWs and slaves (7/13/2020 10:52:27 PM)

You're completely forgetting about deserters. Why are you thinking that "surrendered" enemies are literally surrender to you up to last man?

Slavery isn't worth it if you aren't playing on Siwa. POW are complexity for sake of complexity as we have only one way to win - conquer enough. :) IMHO will be nice to get part of surrendered enemies as Free Folks in nearby zone. Everything else already suggested here are a too fantasy for me.



FAA -> RE: POWs and slaves (7/15/2020 10:07:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

You're completely forgetting about deserters. Why are you thinking that "surrendered" enemies are literally surrender to you up to last man?

Slavery isn't worth it if you aren't playing on Siwa. POW are complexity for sake of complexity as we have only one way to win - conquer enough. :) IMHO will be nice to get part of surrendered enemies as Free Folks in nearby zone. Everything else already suggested here are a too fantasy for me.


Numbers don’t have to match exactly, to account for deserters, those who died from wounds, escaped from captivity etc.

This is crucial on low population planets where you can’t just explain that 100k people simply disappeared in a huge encirclement, when your own regime only has 1 million. That’s a huge percentage of world’s population gone without any explanation. We’re talking about numbers exceeding some of the worst genocides in our history.



demiare -> RE: POWs and slaves (7/15/2020 1:41:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FAA

This is crucial on low population planets where you can’t just explain that 100k people simply disappeared in a huge encirclement, when your own regime only has 1 million. That’s a huge percentage of world’s population gone without any explanation. We’re talking about numbers exceeding some of the worst genocides in our history.


Look at this from different angle - they aren't died. They just gone into hiding and refusing to fuel your warmachine with their own bodies. Your regime is definitely lack people to send on search for them so for your leader they're just "gone".



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