RE: Post War Robert E Lee

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Zap -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (6/30/2020 3:06:48 AM)
As I see it, Lee was more motivated to act on what he perceived an injustice to the southern states. The fact that the common man (not owning slaves) enlisted in the hundreds of thousands choosing war against the north. Shows me, the common man felt deeply the north was trying to impose itself over the rights of their state's. Lee was not a leader for social justice. His sense of Duty pushed the balance for justice swing in favor of protecting the southern states. As deeply passionate, as were, the southern mans feelings for their homeland its understandable they wanted to honor Robert E. Lee with a statue, for being the protector of what they held dear. As recounted when he went to his home in Richmond, after the war, many people gathered at the front steps of his home. Before he entered the door of his home they honored him. We see today repeatedly the honoring a person who lived an otherwise dis-honorable/even criminal life being held up as a good person. Defective and imperfect characters don't hold people back from their perception of who is deserving of honor. Best said by poster Don 60420 post #9 quote Quite true, just as we all are. People are good about picking out flaws in others but poor at noting their own flaws. If we are going to continually indict the past for not being the present, we will learn little from the past, except using it as a club to be wielded in current political strife. Understanding the past should be our goal as war gamers. What we do with that understanding may, or may not, lead to political action, but the understanding must definitely come first.

RangerJoe -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (6/30/2020 3:18:02 AM)
The problem is that people are using the standards of today to judge people in the past.

warspite1 -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (6/30/2020 4:32:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zap As I see it, Lee was more motivated to act on what he perceived an injustice to the southern states. The fact that the common man (not owning slaves) enlisted in the hundreds of thousands choosing war against the north. Shows me, the common man felt deeply the north was trying to impose itself over their rites of the state. Lee was not a leader for social justice. His sense of Duty pushed the balance for justice swing in favor of protecting the southern states. As deeply passionate, as were, the southern mans feelings for their homeland its understandable they wanted to honor Robert E. Lee with a statue, for being the protector of what they held dear. As recounted when he went to his home in Richmond, after the war, many people gathered at the front steps of his home. Before he entered the door of his home they honored him. We see today repeatedly the honoring a person who lived an otherwise dis-honorable/even criminal life being held up as a good person. Defective and imperfect characters don't hold people back from their perception of who is deserving of honor. Best said by poster Don 60420 post #9 quote Quite true, just as we all are. People are good about picking out flaws in others but poor at noting their own flaws. If we are going to continually indict the past for not being the present, we will learn little from the past, except using it as a club to be wielded in current political strife. Understanding the past should be our goal as war gamers. What we do with that understanding may, or may not, lead to political action, but the understanding must definitely come first. warspite1 Looks like you've quoted part of what I wrote in the quote you've attributed to Don 60420.

Zap -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (6/30/2020 4:43:31 AM)
corrected.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (6/30/2020 2:27:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe The problem is that people are using the standards of today to judge people in the past. Exactly. The moral code we adhere to today is a product of the luxurious plenty that we live under. It could never be applied in any other condition. The greatest death threat we face today is from dietary excess. Easy to castigate those from harder times from the pinnacle of our excessive ease. Earlier Americans were hacking a civilization out of a wilderness. They faced threats to their lives we can't even fathom. That they should be held to today's standard is idiocy. And don't think that we can't be thrust into just the circumstances they were in. I like to use the Donner Party to illustrate that things can get so bad that you'll not only kill your neighbors, you'll EAT them too! Imagine if there were some environmental disaster to the Earth such that it wouldn't support seven billion people anymore. Maybe it could only support seven million. Do you think our current luxurious moral code would still adhere? Slavery, genocide, even cannibalism would quickly make comebacks (and that's assuming they've ever even disappeared completely).

Erik Rutins -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (6/30/2020 3:58:29 PM)
A reminder that discussing R.E. Lee in the context of the American Civil War and those times is very much fine for this forum, but bringing that discussion into the events and politics of the current day goes against our no politics policy. A few recent posts are quite close to that line, please be sure you don't cross it as this is otherwise a good discussion.

warspite1 -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (6/30/2020 6:56:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zap corrected. warspite1 Thank-you

RangerJoe -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/1/2020 2:08:54 AM)
One thing about the sudden freeing of the slaves, in Jamaica it wrecked the economy. Of course, that may have been because the landlords and their overseers may not have known how to deal with paid laborers. Check out these: http://www.jamaicanfamilysearch.com/Samples2/slavery.htm From there: http://www.jamaicanfamilysearch.com/Samples2/bbigelow.htm I won't quote anything from the links because that is not allowed. But the second one is about the economy and what happened.

Capt. Harlock -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/2/2020 4:20:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: goodwoodrw I'm no expert on American history, but what little I have read on Lee suggests he fought for Virginia not the CSA. If Virginia had of been in the Northern Coalition he would have led the Union, would I be correct on seeing it this way? warspite1 Interesting. Perhaps someone knowledgeable on the US Civil War will add their insight. Seems strange though - and I only say this because that would mean he would have no personal interest in the politics of his state and who/what he would be fighting for - only that his state declares for one side or the other and he would follow..... Also, if that was his avowed position, then why would he have become such a revered figure to the South post the war? For whatever my opinion is worth, had Virginia stayed in the Union (highly unlikely, but we can speculate), Lee would have resigned from the U. S. Army. He did write that "save in defense of my native state, I never again desire to draw my sword." It is just possible that, had he been in command of a fort in a seceding state, his sense of duty would not have allowed him to surrender his command, and he might have been the man who first returned fire against the Confederates, rather than Robert Anderson at Fort Sumter. It is indeed a great pity that, unlike almost everyone else who survived, he never wrote his memoirs. He had planned to write a history of the Army of Northern Virginia, but was felled by a stroke before he could spare the time from his job as head of Washington College. As to his position in the South, he was already a revered figure before the war ended. Indeed, once Jefferson Davis and much of the Confederate government fled Richmond, he could be said to be the figurehead of the entire Confederacy. When he surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia and about 25,000 men, there were still about 175,000 men in the Confederate ranks. But the other armies went down like dominoes when they heard Lee had surrendered. A second and almost as important point is that he was just about the perfect figure to embody the Lost Cause mythos -- Prof. Gary Gallagher has lectured well on the subject: https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/robert-e-lee-and-his-high-command.html

TheGrayMouser -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/2/2020 6:49:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe Lee's daughters were supposed to receive money. The money was supposed to come from the sale of land/property but Lee did not want to sell the property. He eventually did sell the property. He did have them whipped. Apparently the sheriff/constable did so and was paid. Did you research find out how many blacks were held as slaves by other blacks? Yes I am aware that at least some blacks owned slaves in early America, although I have no idea if any did during Lees lifetime, or how its really relevant to this topic.... Do you know ?, if so why not share the details? I hope I'm wrong but I think you were trying to bait me into something here? Especially since you phrase " did you research this..." Are you implying that I have no interest or knowledge in the topic and thus I'm researching little details to win arguments? That I go around and find "bad things to say" about historical figures just for the sake of it? I almost never get involved in these topics, but in this particular one where a few posters were looking for information or insights, some of the answers were not really giving the whole picture, I made one post to fill in the "gap". Any how I see that in another post you and another feel that some people are not judging historical figures by the standards of their times. I'm not sure if that is directed to me or in general... I, as much is feasible and or possible try and see the world thru "their" eyes. My synospis that Lee was a conformist at best was giving him the benefit of the doubt thru the eyes of his contemporaries. I stand by it, perhaps it too generous though? After all, he was morally against slavery yet his "honor and duty" compelled him to fight for it. Lets not pretend here, the states that seceeded made it VERY clear why they did so, and no one can pretend they didnt know what would happen next. Lee put every ounce of his heart, soul and ability for THAT cause, to the bitter end no less. His post war writing does appear to show the man perhaps had changed and wanted to move on. My guess is he would perhaps be appalled on how he became a poster boy for the lost cause mentality. How far does honor and duty go? A timeless dilmena no doubt, best expressed in one of the greatest movies of all time, The Wild Bunch: Pike and Dutch reminesse on their old comrade Thornton whom now works for the railroad to take their heads for a bounty Pike: What would you have him do, he gave his WORD! Dutch: But to the RAILROAD!! Pike: It's his WORD! Dutch: Its not his word , but WHOM he gives it to! I tend to side with Dutch here, but who knows. Taken to either extreme you'ld be end up like a Stonewall, a true Loon! Have a safe and happy 4th all, I know I will have a safe one because the Nanny State I live in reminds me not to do all the un-safe and illegal things I might want to do via the digital highway sighns, instead of warning me of accidents, traffic or inclement weather...

Zap -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/2/2020 7:54:15 PM)
I believe in Lee's word's �resolve to be victorious and that the right of self-government, liberty, and peace shall in him find a defender.� expressed the greater evil to be be righted. Yes, that meant slavery was not his first choice in his balance of justice.Defending his people and their rights and laws was. Your synopsis that he was viewed as a conformist(as pertains to slavery). Was that the prevalent view back then? It seems too developed to be the thought process early post war. It would seem more prevalent of the day was he was a traitor because he joined the secession. Could you give a source on prevalent views early post war that would help.

RangerJoe -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/3/2020 2:59:01 AM)
If you would read the second link that I had posted, you will see the economic impact to Jamaica upon the freeing of the slaves. This must have been known in the South so the problems with suddenly ending slavery (with no compensation) weighed heavily. The labor problem in Jamaica was solved, in whole or in part, by bringing in labor from India and elsewhere. But that took time. The South would have had to do that and have the system working when the slaves were freed, especially if the now ex-slaves were not going to be paid laborers. Virginia did not vote to leave the Union until after Lincoln was in office and the Northwestern part did not want to leave the Union. That part became West Virginia. I am sorry that you consider me to be a Loon, because your word is your word no matter whom you give it to. If some people can depend upon you keeping your word while others can not . . . [:-] Since you consider me a Loon, I will not tell you what I know about black slave owners nor about the blacks who formed a militia to aid the Confederacy . . .

TheGrayMouser -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/3/2020 4:16:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe If you would read the second link that I had posted, you will see the economic impact to Jamaica upon the freeing of the slaves. This must have been known in the South so the problems with suddenly ending slavery (with no compensation) weighed heavily. The labor problem in Jamaica was solved, in whole or in part, by bringing in labor from India and elsewhere. But that took time. The South would have had to do that and have the system working when the slaves were freed, especially if the now ex-slaves were not going to be paid laborers. Virginia did not vote to leave the Union until after Lincoln was in office and the Northwestern part did not want to leave the Union. That part became West Virginia. I am sorry that you consider me to be a Loon, because your word is your word no matter whom you give it to. If some people can depend upon you keeping your word while others can not . . . [:-] Since you consider me a Loon, I will not tell you what I know about black slave owners nor about the blacks who formed a militia to aid the Confederacy . . . I have no idea what your talking about. When did I ever call you a loon? You need to read my post again I think. Perhaps using a movie dialogue was too confusing. The absolute complexity of the concept of "loyalty" or "duty", to a cause or ideaolgy or a person is interesting to me and seemed relevant to a discussion about Lee. I suggested that going to either extreme could, hmm, suggest "crazyness". Listen, I cant stop you from taking offense or reading things into my posts that arnt there, to the point of you insulting me, so again please re-read, or dont. Also, watch the Wild Bunch if you have never seen it. ( or dont)

Platoonist -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/3/2020 5:25:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay And don't think that we can't be thrust into just the circumstances they were in. I like to use the Donner Party to illustrate that things can get so bad that you'll not only kill your neighbors, you'll EAT them too! Imagine In the past, I've used the example of the survivors of that Uruguayan plane crash in the Andes in 1972. The circumstances of which the book and move Alive! were based. A group of devoutly Roman Catholic athletes for whom cannibalism was considered a mortal sin, decided it was a sacrament if it meant they might live to see their loved ones again. When in extremis we can quickly go to extremes.

RangerJoe -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/4/2020 5:58:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Platoonist quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay And don't think that we can't be thrust into just the circumstances they were in. I like to use the Donner Party to illustrate that things can get so bad that you'll not only kill your neighbors, you'll EAT them too! Imagine In the past, I've used the example of the survivors of that Uruguayan plane crash in the Andes in 1972. The circumstances of which the book and move Alive! were based. A group of devoutly Roman Catholic athletes for whom cannibalism was considered a mortal sin, decided it was a sacrament if it meant they might live to see their loved ones again. When in extremis we can quickly go to extremes. A good book. Sad to note that they were not that far from a resort. Five miles if I remember correctly. But they would have had to travel down one valley and then up another one.

TheGrayMouser -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/4/2020 3:09:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zap I believe in Lee's word's �resolve to be victorious and that the right of self-government, liberty, and peace shall in him find a defender.� expressed the greater evil to be be righted. Yes, that meant slavery was not his first choice in his balance of justice.Defending his people and their rights and laws was. Your synopsis that he was viewed as a conformist(as pertains to slavery). Was that the prevalent view back then? It seems too developed to be the thought process early post war. It would seem more prevalent of the day was he was a traitor because he joined the secession. Could you give a source on prevalent views early post war that would help. It's been a long time since I have studied the civil war, and am no expert but basically as I recall from those that were, yes, Lee's views on slavery seemed to be common, at least from people in his position in society. Its a morass though as slavery and secession are so intertwined, despite efforts of people of the past to try and separate them. Here is a fascinating article about the US Cavalry K Troop sent down into to South Carolina to investigate reports of murders and defiance of the new amendments Grant had passed. ( many of whom members were later killed at the Little Big Horn) Lee might have wanted to move on after the war, but its frightening how many apparently did not. This is just a slice of the south of course, would need research every state to get a full picture. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2016/03/how_a_detachment_of_u_s_army_soldiers_smoked_out_the_original_ku_klux_klan.html

RangerJoe -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/4/2020 7:36:32 PM)
A very nice article, thank you.

Zap -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/4/2020 9:17:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheGrayMouser quote: ORIGINAL: Zap I believe in Lee's word's �resolve to be victorious and that the right of self-government, liberty, and peace shall in him find a defender.� expressed the greater evil to be be righted. Yes, that meant slavery was not his first choice in his balance of justice.Defending his people and their rights and laws was. Your synopsis that he was viewed as a conformist(as pertains to slavery). Was that the prevalent view back then? It seems too developed to be the thought process early post war. It would seem more prevalent of the day was he was a traitor because he joined the secession. Could you give a source on prevalent views early post war that would help. It's been a long time since I have studied the civil war, and am no expert but basically as I recall from those that were, yes, Lee's views on slavery seemed to be common, at least from people in his position in society. Its a morass though as slavery and secession are so intertwined, despite efforts of people of the past to try and separate them. Here is a fascinating article about the US Cavalry K Troop sent down into to South Carolina to investigate reports of murders and defiance of the new amendments Grant had passed. ( many of whom members were later killed at the Little Big Horn) Lee might have wanted to move on after the war, but its frightening how many apparently did not. This is just a slice of the south of course, would need research every state to get a full picture. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2016/03/how_a_detachment_of_u_s_army_soldiers_smoked_out_the_original_ku_klux_klan.html Since, my original post was looking at the man Robert Lee, Post War. The article you offered actually helps me formulate what i think of Lee. Robert Lee maybe not of been of an elevated virtue. But he was able to distinguish the evil of slavery being an exceptional General who showed compassion for the suffering of his men. Being able to move on after the war and to lead a University forward demonstrates a certain stature of character, an able leader. I offer my thoughts as a balance to today's prevalent views which attempt cancel any good an individual has accomplished(addressing present day culture not you Gray Mouser). that shouldn't happen to any individual. I hold it's of tantamount importance to seek the good in men. Lee had saving qualities, worth noting. Otherwise, the the danger of holding disdain for a man who deserves better can and will take hold. Anyhow, this my view which I feel in these forums can be assured a fair hearing. Expressing this beyond these forums (at another site) responses would not be received by reasoned responses, I think.

DD696 -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/4/2020 9:34:19 PM)
Awhile ago, maybe about in the year 2008, I visited the campus of Washington and Lee. I went to the chapel that Bobbie Lee went to, and sat in the spot that he always did. I had the privilege of spending many minutes alone with where the remains of this great man lie in that little chapel. I do not care what side he fought for. Robert E Lee was a man to be respected and admired. I hope that someday I can visit where U S Grant lies. He was a man to be respected and admired. Bobbie Lee was beholden to his state. Ulysses was beholden to the United States of America. It is a shame that among such men one had to lose, but it is revered that the United States of America survived this crisis. It is just a shame that in these days men of such wisdom and conscience are despised. I hope the union survives these turbulent times.

RangerJoe -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/4/2020 9:41:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zap quote: ORIGINAL: TheGrayMouser quote: ORIGINAL: Zap I believe in Lee's word's �resolve to be victorious and that the right of self-government, liberty, and peace shall in him find a defender.� expressed the greater evil to be be righted. Yes, that meant slavery was not his first choice in his balance of justice.Defending his people and their rights and laws was. Your synopsis that he was viewed as a conformist(as pertains to slavery). Was that the prevalent view back then? It seems too developed to be the thought process early post war. It would seem more prevalent of the day was he was a traitor because he joined the secession. Could you give a source on prevalent views early post war that would help. It's been a long time since I have studied the civil war, and am no expert but basically as I recall from those that were, yes, Lee's views on slavery seemed to be common, at least from people in his position in society. Its a morass though as slavery and secession are so intertwined, despite efforts of people of the past to try and separate them. Here is a fascinating article about the US Cavalry K Troop sent down into to South Carolina to investigate reports of murders and defiance of the new amendments Grant had passed. ( many of whom members were later killed at the Little Big Horn) Lee might have wanted to move on after the war, but its frightening how many apparently did not. This is just a slice of the south of course, would need research every state to get a full picture. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2016/03/how_a_detachment_of_u_s_army_soldiers_smoked_out_the_original_ku_klux_klan.html Since, my original post was looking at the man Robert Lee, Post War. The article you offered actually helps me formulate what i think of Lee. Robert Lee maybe not of been of an elevated virtue. But he was able to distinguish the evil of slavery being an exceptional General who showed compassion for the suffering of his men. Being able to move on after the war and to lead a University forward demonstrates a certain stature of character, an able leader. I offer my thoughts as a balance to today's prevalent views which attempt cancel any good an individual has accomplished(addressing present day culture not you Gray Mouser). that shouldn't happen to any individual. I hold it's of tantamount importance to seek the good in men. Lee had saving qualities, worth noting. Otherwise, the the danger of holding disdain for a man who deserves better can and will take hold. Anyhow, this my view which I feel in these forums can be assured a fair hearing. Expressing this beyond these forums (at another site) responses would not be received by reasoned responses, I think. The link also hints at the economic aspect of the sudden ending of slavery. Without the workers, how would the farmland be worked? One of the principles involved did not want to pay ex-slaves, I presume that he was not the only one. Do you import some workers? From where? How well would they be treated? What about their pay and accommodations?

Curtis Lemay -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/4/2020 10:12:17 PM)
Here's the contemporary view of Henry Clay: "I am, Mr. President, no friend of slavery. The searcher of all hearts knows that every pulsation of mine beats high and strong in the cause of civil liberty. Wherever it is safe and practicable, I desire to see every portion of the human family in the enjoyment of it. But I prefer the liberty of my own human family to that of any other people; and the liberty of my own race to that of any other race. The liberty of the descendants of Africa in the United States is incompatible with the safety and liberty of the European descendants." So, the impediment to emancipation was nationalism, not economics. The South could never have maintained slavery had the slaves been European. The South wanted to be a Nation-State. Consider where we are now... [deleted to keep the thread open.]

Zap -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/4/2020 10:26:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe quote: ORIGINAL: Zap quote: ORIGINAL: TheGrayMouser quote: ORIGINAL: Zap I believe in Lee's word's �resolve to be victorious and that the right of self-government, liberty, and peace shall in him find a defender.� expressed the greater evil to be be righted. Yes, that meant slavery was not his first choice in his balance of justice.Defending his people and their rights and laws was. Your synopsis that he was viewed as a conformist(as pertains to slavery). Was that the prevalent view back then? It seems too developed to be the thought process early post war. It would seem more prevalent of the day was he was a traitor because he joined the secession. Could you give a source on prevalent views early post war that would help. It's been a long time since I have studied the civil war, and am no expert but basically as I recall from those that were, yes, Lee's views on slavery seemed to be common, at least from people in his position in society. Its a morass though as slavery and secession are so intertwined, despite efforts of people of the past to try and separate them. Here is a fascinating article about the US Cavalry K Troop sent down into to South Carolina to investigate reports of murders and defiance of the new amendments Grant had passed. ( many of whom members were later killed at the Little Big Horn) Lee might have wanted to move on after the war, but its frightening how many apparently did not. This is just a slice of the south of course, would need research every state to get a full picture. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2016/03/how_a_detachment_of_u_s_army_soldiers_smoked_out_the_original_ku_klux_klan.html Since, my original post was looking at the man Robert Lee, Post War. The article you offered actually helps me formulate what i think of Lee. Robert Lee maybe not of been of an elevated virtue. But he was able to distinguish the evil of slavery being an exceptional General who showed compassion for the suffering of his men. Being able to move on after the war and to lead a University forward demonstrates a certain stature of character, an able leader. I offer my thoughts as a balance to today's prevalent views which attempt cancel any good an individual has accomplished(addressing present day culture not you Gray Mouser). that shouldn't happen to any individual. I hold it's of tantamount importance to seek the good in men. Lee had saving qualities, worth noting. Otherwise, the the danger of holding disdain for a man who deserves better can and will take hold. Anyhow, this my view which I feel in these forums can be assured a fair hearing. Expressing this beyond these forums (at another site) responses would not be received by reasoned responses, I think. The link also hints at the economic aspect of the sudden ending of slavery. Without the workers, how would the farmland be worked? One of the principles involved did not want to pay ex-slaves, I presume that he was not the only one. Do you import some workers? From where? How well would they be treated? What about their pay and accommodations? The picture of his home (after war) shows little land to care for. I don't know Lee family lost property after the war.. His position at the University should have allowed him to hire help. But as you noted the prevalent thought was no ex-slaves. Maybe afraid of hostility? Any, indications as to why.

DD696 -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/4/2020 10:31:42 PM)
Arlington Nation Cemetery. The home of Robert E. Lee. Confiscated. He never returned to it.

RangerJoe -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/5/2020 12:23:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DD696 Arlington Nation Cemetery. The home of Robert E. Lee. Confiscated. He never returned to it. There were other properties as well. While his father fell onto hard times and was jailed for awhile, Robert E. Lee married into the Custis family. George Washington's Custis family . . .

Zap -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/20/2020 6:31:17 AM)
I over looked to mention Robert E. Lee when He surrendered the Confederacy his thoughts were about possible 20,000 causalities the next battle would bring on both sides. He said, 240,000 were enough casualties. So he chose to surrender. Davis, was upset he surrendered. Robert E. Lee demonstrating a high moral fiber in this instance.

Zap -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/20/2020 7:34:31 AM)
Another interesting fact. President Eisenhower had prints of 4 men in his oval office. Whom he considered the top Americans. Lincoln. Washington,Franklin, Lee

RangerJoe -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/20/2020 11:04:36 AM)
quote: Nigerian journalist and novelist Adaobi Tricia Nwaubani writes that one of her ancestors sold slaves, but argues that he should not be judged by today's standards or values. Short presentational grey line and quote: The only life they knew Nwaubani Ogogo lived in a time when the fittest survived and the bravest excelled. The concept of "all men are created equal" was completely alien to traditional religion and law in his society. It would be unfair to judge a 19th Century man by 21st Century principles. Assessing the people of Africa's past by today's standards would compel us to cast the majority of our heroes as villains, denying us the right to fully celebrate anyone who was not influenced by Western ideology. Igbo slave traders like my great-grandfather did not suffer any crisis of social acceptance or legality. They did not need any religious or scientific justifications for their actions. They were simply living the life into which they were raised. That was all they knew. 'My Nigerian great-grandfather sold slaves' https://www.yahoo.com/news/nigerian-great-grandfather-sold-slaves-233633661.html

pzgndr -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/20/2020 11:27:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: goodwoodrw I believe his passion was Virginian politics +1 State politics was more influential in the early part of US history, before the federal government grew. Viewing Civil War history through our contemporary lens distorts much.

RangerJoe -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/20/2020 1:14:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pzgndr quote: ORIGINAL: goodwoodrw I believe his passion was Virginian politics +1 State politics was more influential in the early part of US history, before the federal government grew. Viewing Civil War history through our contemporary lens distorts much. Southerners generally thought more of the state first while Northerners thought more about the United States. This is because the Southern families were much less mobile than the Northern families.

rico21 -> RE: Post War Robert E Lee (7/20/2020 5:45:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Trugrit quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: goodwoodrw I'm no expert on American history, but what little I have read on Lee suggests he fought for Virginia not the CSA. If Virginia had of been in the Northern Coalition he would have led the Union, would I be correct on seeing it this way? warspite1 Interesting. Perhaps someone knowledgeable on the US Civil War will add their insight. Seems strange though - and I only say this because that would mean he would have no personal interest in the politics of his state and who/what he would be fighting for - only that his state declares for one side or the other and he would follow..... Also, if that was his avowed position, then why would he have become such a revered figure to the South post the war? Well, his situation was not uncommon, not just in America but in history. In WW2 there were plenty of Germans who were not Nazis and fought for Germany. Bah, let's see. It does not surprise me that they lost with all these traitors![:D]

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