Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (Full Version)

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smckechnie -> Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (6/30/2020 5:22:47 AM)

I know that this has been discussed before, but having seen some more playing of the early axis invasion of Russia, the developers of this game need to move to fix this imbalance in game strategy ASAP! Here are some of the issues:

1. Most even average players can take France by May of 1940. The better players can take it in March or April. This is against even a strong defense of France by the allies where some axis losses are inflicted.
2. After taking France the most difficutl problem for the axis is the logistics of getting forces back east to invade Russia. This can be messed up, but even if it is, the axis still have 2 YEARS TO CRUSH RUSSIA BEFORE THEY GET SIGNIFICANT RESEARCH TO HELP THEM.
3. If the axis player gets lucky and has level 2 infantry by the fall of 1940 the Russians get destroyed even faster, as even at a fast clip the Russians don’t get level 2 infantry till the late summer of 1941. It is too late by then.
4. The increase in US mobilization does not do enough to correct the imbalance of the early Russian invasion. The increase doesn’t take place until December or so of 1940, then the US mobilization stays flat for most of 1941. This is not enough of a penalty to deter axis early Russia strategy. The axis will knock the Russians out fhe war before the US can bring any significant forces to France or Europe in general.
5. Even if the Russians are able to muster enough forces with research by 1942, by then, their natiional morale is so low that the axis still keep rolling. (In general, this national morale issue for Russia is too much of a penalty for them.).
6. Yes, the allies could go for some other level of the victory conditions, but from the looks of it, early Russia is for sure at least an axis tactical victory.

I would like to hear some thoughts from the developers.



Dalwin -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (6/30/2020 7:08:31 AM)

If it is late 41 before Russia is getting infantry 2, that is some shaky prioritizing of early game Russian MPP. That research needs to be started ASAP and kept rolling at all costs.



HamburgerMeat -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (6/30/2020 2:05:54 PM)

I always prioritize infantry weapons level 1 (I refund advanced aircraft and production tech to immediately put a chit into infantry weapons). However, I often don't get infantry weapons 2 until 42...



HamburgerMeat -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (6/30/2020 2:10:18 PM)

And I completely agree with smckechnie. I think anyone who has been on the receiving end of this strategy by an average axis player will know that a 1940 USSR invasion can't be countered. Even if you destroy the german panzers, it is the infantry weapons discrepancy doing most of the work.



Marcinos1985 -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (6/30/2020 2:12:08 PM)

All fair points. By coincidence, similar thread was posted today in AAR section.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dalwin

If it is late 41 before Russia is getting infantry 2, that is some shaky prioritizing of early game Russian MPP. That research needs to be started ASAP and kept rolling at all costs.


But without a tech breakthrough USSR will get inf wp lvl 1 around 4Q of 1940, similarly lvl 2 by the end of 1941. I usually get weapons 2 in winter 1941/1942 and I always invest in this tech at once.



BillRunacre -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (6/30/2020 3:39:21 PM)

Hi everyone

Is this a problem of tech prioritization as some hint at, or something that might need addressing in the game?

If the latter, the question then arises of how we can give the USSR greater potential to defend itself early on without imbalancing the game, because for those who invade in 1941 we don't want them to face a USSR that is overpowered.

Noting that we don't have a way to tell the engine to give the USSR X if it is invaded in 1940, but not if it is invaded later. This is why any increase to the USSR will apply in all games.

An alternative would be weakening the Axis but I'm not sure that is desirable?



sad ham -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (6/30/2020 3:48:41 PM)

Maybe the solution could be a faster US entry into the war to balance the early Russia invasion.



HamburgerMeat -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (6/30/2020 4:03:17 PM)

Hi Bill,

I think the game is more or less balanced around a 1941 invasion of the USSR, so buffing the USSR across the board would probably be a bad idea.

I am thinking that the easiest way to target this 1940 invasion is to add additional punishments if the axis declares war on the USSR before Bulgaria joins. Some ideas:

-A national morale penalty to germans (at least below 95%, preferrably below 75%) to reduce their morale multiplier.
-bigger USA mobilization penalty
-USA mobization each turn until 1941 (not sure if this is possible)
-a new USSR DE: if at war with germany but bulgaria has not joined the axis, then offered XYZ for a nominal MPP fee (not sure if possible)

One could also buff France to help delay the invasion, and this would help keep the allied player honest in defending France (as opposed to abandoning it and sailing to egypt) to avoid a 1940 USSR invasion.



crispy131313 -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (6/30/2020 6:48:40 PM)

I'm going to draw from my own mod a few prospective ideas on how to counter a 1940 DOW against USSR. These decisions popup on the 2nd and 3rd turn after Barbarossa irregardless of DOW date. They are for Soviet reserves to protect major cities, and have a fixed and variable MPP cost component so they are not free. It's not so much the cost and units that are balanced for the 1939 campaign but the concept could be used to help offset an early DOW.

[image]local://upfiles/46995/6DB883DFD7CF4043B56B0B5BB7B9FA20.jpg[/image]



crispy131313 -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (6/30/2020 6:53:22 PM)

The other donations to the discussion would be to provide the Soviets some other units that could arrive irregardless of DOW date. Again not sure if these fit right for balancing in the 1939 campaign just food for thought.

The Engineer decision is prompted when the Axis reach Smolensk. The Soviet Tank Decision is a first turn of Barbarossa decision event.

[image]local://upfiles/46995/2A213C7111F74EA49162A53FA0CDD534.jpg[/image]



Birdw -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (6/30/2020 6:56:32 PM)

I've never faced a German invasion of Russia in 1940. I have gone almost into 1943 before I got Infantry 2 and that is frustrating. With the games Victory conditions being what they are I can think of several strategies for the allies to counter this. I'd be interested to see a game like this.



Janaka -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (6/30/2020 7:07:11 PM)

As a newbie who is struggling to compete against the AI, can I ask - as the Axis player, if I don't invade Russia at all and keep the six(?) required garrisons in the east, will Russia stay neutral; or is it scripted to invade Germany at some point if I don't DOW and invade first? In other words, is war with Russia inevitable in this game or can I avoid it?



crispy131313 -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (6/30/2020 7:09:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Janaka

As a newbie who is struggling to compete against the AI, can I ask - as the Axis player, if I don't invade Russia at all and keep the six(?) required garrisons in the east, will Russia stay neutral; or is it scripted to invade Germany at some point if I don't DOW and invade first? In other words, is war with Russia inevitable in this game or can I avoid it?


War with the USSR is inevitable all you can do is delay



Birdw -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (6/30/2020 8:09:44 PM)

Russian readiness will increase the later in the war you get and it also can be raised by what countries you invade, how big your garrison is and diplomacy. You should strive to invade Russia on the first clear weather turn in 1941 on the Eastern Front.



taffjones -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (6/30/2020 9:30:40 PM)

I consider myself as a average player and I can't replicate this strategy.

So I would say anyone who can do it is a good Axis player.

Crispy's suggestions look interesting as a solution.



Platoonist -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (7/1/2020 12:53:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre
If the latter, the question then arises of how we can give the USSR greater potential to defend itself early on without imbalancing the game, because for those who invade in 1941 we don't want them to face a USSR that is overpowered.


Just out of curiosity. When Germany honors the 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop Non-Aggression Pact and gets that grant of 25 MPPs a turn from the Soviets, does the Soviet Union get those 25 MPPs a turn back once they violate it?

Just looking for a logical way to buff Russia. [:D]



pjg100 -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (7/1/2020 8:52:03 PM)

I like Hamburger's suggestion of imposing a national morale penalty on the Germans if they launch an early invasion of the USSR. It need not permanently or decisively cripple the Axis, as the Germans will accrue compensating NM points as they advance in the east, but it should be sufficient to slow them down. Perhaps accompanied by a temporary diminution in Germany's production (damage to the Ruhr mines?) to account for the increased consumer goods (butter v. guns) that the Nazi regime would likely have had to provide in order to assuage public consternation at the expansion of the war so soon after the victory in France.



Jackmck -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (7/2/2020 2:57:51 AM)

I think a way to balance this is to allow the Western Allies to send resources to the USSR when it is attacked- maybe even before the US is at war similar to how it can support China.

Btw, US option to send resources to USSR through Vladivostok has been thoroughly countered by savy Axis players who simply buy a cheap patrol craft to block it. Not realistic at all since they wouldn't do well against the heavily armed cargo ships of the day, but its the game mechanics.

Borrowing an idea from an Avalon Hill game, Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, the allies could send resources to the USSR through the Middle East via a Lend Lease program. Maybe it takes longer and requires more cost to start up, but it is a safer way to pass resources. Yet it is still a trade off because the western allies would have less. Maybe a way to balance the enormous morale, experience and research advantage Germany will have against the USSR for the first year.



Elessar2 -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (7/2/2020 12:29:38 PM)

Anyone else think that the Russian Front Scorched Earth settings are much too carebearish? [going both ways] While I had noticed this as the Axis player, it was often disguised when I would have done a siege of a city first, driving its supply level down towards zero. But having played a campaign as the Russians I was shocked to see most newly captured Axis cities at 4 or 5 base supply levels, as the hordes kept streaming east in an unslacking tide. IIRC in earlier editions of the game it did indeed go down to zero after a city was taken.



BillRunacre -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (7/3/2020 11:28:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre
If the latter, the question then arises of how we can give the USSR greater potential to defend itself early on without imbalancing the game, because for those who invade in 1941 we don't want them to face a USSR that is overpowered.


Just out of curiosity. When Germany honors the 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop Non-Aggression Pact and gets that grant of 25 MPPs a turn from the Soviets, does the Soviet Union get those 25 MPPs a turn back once they violate it?

Just looking for a logical way to buff Russia. [:D]



They don't, and of course if they did then they would get them after the war has begun for them, whenever that is, so introducing that could upset balance in games when the USSR is invaded in 1941.



EarlyDoors -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (7/13/2020 9:24:47 PM)

I haven't yet faced an axis invasion of USSR in 1940, nor have I played as Axis so forgive any incorrect assumptions I make. However, you may be able to enrich the game with the following historical facts:

~ the USSR provided grain and oil to the axis as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact (not sure that is happening now, but could be added / beefed up to provide a risk / reward balance)
~ Germany seized massive amounts of motorised transport from the collapse of the French Army, without it they would only be able to put 4 motorised armies in to barbarossa, so maybe on the fall of france they could receive less plunder but a timed receipt (early 41?) of mechanised corps / mobility
~ maybe USSR units could spawn further from western border in 1940 (giving greater survival chance)



Platoonist -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (7/13/2020 9:47:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors



~ the USSR provided grain and oil to the axis as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact (not sure that is happening now, but could be added / beefed up to provide a risk / reward balance)


Actually, that event is already included--

quote:

Providing Germany honors the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact when Poland falls, Warsaw is in Axis hands and the USSR is pro-Allied but not fully mobilized, Germany will receive 25 MPPs representing goods being imported from the USSR.


I always thought the 25MPPs in exports was pretty generous, considering that the USSR only generates 70ish or so MPPs at game start. [:D]



EarlyDoors -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (10/1/2020 7:54:19 PM)

What are the current scorched earth settings? When the Axis capture Russian cities are they 3 or less? Because I'm getting mullered by the Axis whose front line troops always seem to be supply 5-7, even after the Winter event of Jan 42!



BillRunacre -> RE: Early Russia gives axis too much advantage (10/2/2020 9:29:53 AM)

In v1.06.00 released in January 2020 the USSR's scorched earth settings were changed from 30 -> 50% to 30 -> 70% for Settlements, Towns and Fortified Towns, and from 40 -> 60% to 60 -> 80% for all Cities, Major Cities, Capitals and Major Capitals.

So it may be that they've brought a fair few HQs with them to provide supply bonuses to enable them to progress their attacks.



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