[1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (Full Version)

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ramnblam -> [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 8:25:41 AM)

Hi this is a new game I started and am having trouble with the traffic signs, sometimes they work and sometimes they are having no effect.

I wanted to block off the southern road from my city so more supplies would reach the troops to the west, but no bueno.

[image]local://upfiles/72244/C23DF6DC39C2481D966AF9D8C6EEA3AC.jpg[/image]



Malevolence -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 8:28:17 AM)

Indeed; that appears to be a terrible error if all LP's are moving out from Central.

Are any LP's coming from other Truck Stations toward Central?



ramnblam -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 8:36:51 AM)

That's the starting city and the only one I've got. No other truck stations. Never had this problem with traffic signs until now.



GodwinW -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 9:32:40 AM)

This is a result of the way Logistics work.

Traffic signs only work at crossroads. Or forks, splits, w/e. Not on straight lines. The 80% you set the traffic sign to means that 80% of the logistics has to go down another path. But since logistics points cannot reverse course and go back where they came from (this would make no sense in the design because it would mean you can solve bottlenecks by putting a 40% sign behind it.. that would be quite unworkable), the only course of action they have is to say: oh well 80% of us goes no other way because there's nothing: let's all continue.

Edit: A full 100% sign does block btw. But once you allow some % to continue if there's no other way it'll all flow through because there's no other way.



Malevolence -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 2:30:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

This is a result of the way Logistics work.

Traffic signs only work at crossroads. Or forks, splits, w/e. Not on straight lines.


Was this a change in some v1.03-beta? I may not have placed a traffic sign like this and noticed.

However, if this is true (and I believe you are correct), the interface should not allow such a traffic sign.



zgrssd -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 2:34:07 PM)

Supplies will never flow back.
If they have literally no other way to go and there is no different directions to choose from (or they both have the same % of blockage), they will just ignore traffic signs.

The Crossing near Bezet could just redirect all teh excess towards Bezet.

But for all the other ones:
Where would supply capacity go, if not ahead?



Malevolence -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 2:42:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Supplies will never flow back.
If they have literally no other way to go and there is no different directions to choose from (or they both have the same % of blockage), they will just ignore traffic signs.

The Crossing near Bezet could just redirect all teh excess towards that asset.
But for all the other ones:
Where would supply capacity go, if not ahead?


Nothing about the traffic signs implies backflow. The truck points could simply stop as directed by the sign.

One or the other, the trucks should not ignore the traffic signs or the establishment of the traffic signs should be unavailable in the first place under those conditions.

The issue is not best course of action, the issue is that interface does not convey a consistent behavior to the player's command. Failing a command silently is bad design.



zgrssd -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 2:48:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Supplies will never flow back.
If they have literally no other way to go and there is no different directions to choose from (or they both have the same % of blockage), they will just ignore traffic signs.

The Crossing near Bezet could just redirect all teh excess towards that asset.
But for all the other ones:
Where would supply capacity go, if not ahead?


Nothing about the traffic signs implies backflow. The truck points could simply stop as directed by the sign.


Why would you ever want to limit the throughput for truckpoints on a straight road?
You want supplies to go as far as possible. You only decide the rough direction.

Cutting a size 400 line off after 3 hexes would serve no purpose.

I agree on the UI Update, but why would you even want to do that?



Malevolence -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 2:52:05 PM)

Nothing that I wrote has anything to do with a why. Why does not matter.

It's naive design to assume a player would never want to do something, therefore ignore it.

The better response is, "I never thought someone would try that!" and then fix it.



GodwinW -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 3:06:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

Nothing that I wrote has anything to do with a why. Why does not matter.

It's naive design to assume a player would never want to do something, therefore ignore it.

The better response is, "I never thought someone would try that!" and then fix it.




Agree with that in general.

It would be fine if that percentage of LIS just stops continuing, it wouldn't break anything.

But it's friendlier to disregard the sign, especially now that we have infrastructure demolition.
This means someone could forget about a sign and kill fork (so that it's a straight line).
In this specific case the system has your back.

So I'm not sure it isn't already the best way possible: just cause of some mild confusion if it's being examined in this way.



Malevolence -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 3:14:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Agree with that in general.

It would be fine if that percentage of LIS just stops continuing, it wouldn't break anything.

But it's friendlier to disregard the sign, especially now that we have infrastructure demolition.
This means someone could forget about a sign and kill fork (so that it's a straight line).
In this specific case the system has your back.

So I'm not sure it isn't already the best way possible: just cause of some mild confusion if it's being examined in this way.


If that is the intent (and I think it is), then the interface should not allow the player to place the traffic sign in the first place.



GodwinW -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 3:21:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

If that is the intent (and I think it is), then the interface should not allow the player to place the traffic sign in the first place.



That would be great actually, if the interface of the Traffic Sign only allowed a 100% block there (for whatever reason.. maybe a sort of map-reminder to yourself?), and explained that any other percentage wouldn't do anything.

I'm not sure the UI can handle such things so it might be quite some work. But yes it would be great :)



Malevolence -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 4:55:40 PM)

So what am I doing differently here? This is the Preview Points map layer view.

By using a 100% block traffic sign, it blocks all truck points.

[image]local://upfiles/34589/03CD068F2EBE4F78A536F753A87009B5.jpg[/image]



GodwinW -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 4:58:48 PM)

You're doing nothing differently.

But maybe you didn't read my edit in my first post in this thread, above?

To quote that one again: "Edit: A full 100% sign does block btw. But once you allow some % to continue if there's no other way it'll all flow through because there's no other way."

That's also why I wrote: "That would be great actually, if the interface of the Traffic Sign only allowed a 100% block there (for whatever reason.. maybe a sort of map-reminder to yourself?), and explained that any other percentage wouldn't do anything."



Malevolence -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 5:00:16 PM)

... and by blocking 95% it blocks nothing. That's just odd. I don't think that was intended.

... Ninja'd my big reveal!

[image]local://upfiles/34589/725BEC646C3E418696C8C216F39950FC.jpg[/image]



GodwinW -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 5:01:10 PM)

Yes, you haven't read my posts thoroughly [:'(]



Malevolence -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 5:01:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Yes, you haven't read my posts thoroughly [:'(]


Yes, I did. I was proving it with a test. [;)]



Malevolence -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 5:05:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Why would you ever want to limit the throughput for truckpoints on a straight road?
You want supplies to go as far as possible. You only decide the rough direction.



I remembered a use case. In order to view the preview points layer of only one truck station. I sometimes block straight roads to simply find the best location for supply bases.

Because I always block 100%, I never noticed this odd behavior with less than 100%.



GodwinW -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 5:11:06 PM)

Hm but I think you missed that edit otherwise you'd already have known that 100% traffic signs would block a straight line.

And your use case is fine, perfectly ok to do that, but you can also select a specific Truck Stop in the overview, it's just below the buttons for the different overviews.



Malevolence -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 5:12:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Hm but I think you missed that edit otherwise you'd already have known that 100% traffic signs would block a straight line.

And your use case is fine, perfectly ok to do that, but you can also select a specific Truck Stop in the overview, it's just below the buttons for the different overviews.


Yes, I missed that little log assets windows for weeks until zgrssd or someone mentioned it. [:@]



Malevolence -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 5:18:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Hm but I think you missed that edit otherwise you'd already have known that 100% traffic signs would block a straight line.


I read it. Trust but verify. It would have been more clear had I been able to put both images in the same post.

As with my other threads, I tend to document the suppositions with tests (and quote the sources).

My posts always take 20 minutes of edits before they are done.



GodwinW -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/2/2020 7:46:40 PM)

Ok :)

You could also use imgur btw to get the images in 1 post. prt scr -> ctrl+v on imgur -> open image in new tab -> ctrl+v link address.



Gozzon -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/3/2020 6:13:08 AM)

quote:


It would be fine if that percentage of LIS just stops continuing, it wouldn't break anything.

It would 100% break my logistic network so I 100% disagree that it should just stop. Why on earth would you throw away resources just when you can have actually working logistics network with the system.

Right now the 95% block allowing to pass 100% when no other options exists is a GREAT tool on allowing some lines to supply 100% while other lines only allow 5% to go to that direction and 95% to where you really need them. Only better option would be to be able to define the direction of traffic sign and I think that might be a bit excessive



GodwinW -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/3/2020 9:28:31 AM)

I was just commenting on the mechanical aspect: It wouldn't require redesign of systems or anything. Nothing would break in that regard. Of course existing logistics systems could seriously change due to the change.

And yes I like that it ignores it like I wrote elsewhere: if you delete a fork and forget a sign, the system has your back. There is indeed no reason to throw away resources. And you can use it like you say as well: quick rerouting.

But I'm not sure why you reacted to a small part of what I wrote, out of context, that I myself was nuancing just below. I too am very fine with the way it works, I wrote that: it may well be better to cause a bit of confusion rather than changing it to avoid confusion for some people at the cost of less/different functionality.



Gozzon -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/3/2020 9:33:55 AM)

It was the most coherent summary of the discussed to the alternative way of working for logistics.

I didn't mean to target it at you specifically sorry if it seemed like that I did read that you do prefer the current system.


I actually think it would be more confusing to include another way how logistics are being calculated. Right now we have simple weight based system and this change would be a exception to that system. Not to mention the issues that this would prevent some use cases



GodwinW -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/3/2020 10:01:47 AM)

Ah ok, well, we agree :)



Vic -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/3/2020 2:10:07 PM)

It is working as intended.



Malevolence -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/3/2020 3:01:43 PM)

If it is intended that putting xx% block allows the movement of 100%, then I question the intent. Some percentage of new players are going to keep bringing this up a bug, because the behavior is inconsistent.



Destragon -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/3/2020 3:24:48 PM)

I recently saw a youtuber place traffic signs on the middle of the road like this, without him realising that there's actually no benefit from doing that.
I think traffic signs should ultimately not be placeable on a road where there is no junction. It's just a newbie trap.



zgrssd -> RE: [1.04b1] Traffic Sign Working Intermittently (7/3/2020 4:00:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

If it is intended that putting xx% block allows the movement of 100%, then I question the intent. Some percentage of new players are going to keep bringing this up a bug, because the behavior is inconsistent.


quote:

If it is intended that putting xx% block allows the movement of 100%, then I question the intent. Some percentage of new players are going to keep bringing this up a bug, because the behavior is inconsistent.

It is intended that a XX% block without another direction for Logistics to flow towards, will let 100% through.

That is also a very sensible thing.
Putting in any "can not set traffic sign" rules and the special handlign for cases where roads are added and removed would be a UI pain. One rule when Logistics flow is calculated? Way better.



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