B-17 Coordination (Full Version)

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Coach Zuck -> B-17 Coordination (7/3/2020 2:27:00 PM)

Seems whatever I do I can not get my B-17's to: A) fly an entire squadron & B) have multiple squadrons strike together.
Six squadrons - all in the same base with the same Air HQ, that Air HQ is in the hex as well, base with well more than double the supply required, flying no more than 2 squadrons per altitude i.e. 2 x 10k, 2 x 11k, 2 x 12k. Have never gotten more than 6 of any squadron to fly and never gotten a single strike larger than 11 B-17E's at once. (June through August 1942)
Bases have all been large enough in size and have had a small surplus of Aviation Support.
First PBEM as Allies.
Very frustrating, any ideas?



GetAssista -> RE: B-17 Coordination (7/3/2020 2:32:04 PM)

Fly same altitude for better coordination. Escorts included



Coach Zuck -> RE: B-17 Coordination (7/3/2020 2:56:30 PM)

From the Air coordination Guide (Pinned Post)
"Select different altitudes for your strikes in one area. This is important. You are unneccesarily confusing the game engine if you donīt."

So does this no longer hold true?



BBfanboy -> RE: B-17 Coordination (7/3/2020 3:21:36 PM)

Have you looked at plane fatigue levels (affects how many will make it to launch)? How about pilot fatigue?
Unit experience level (the Experience factor at the left side of the pilot skills screen)?
Unit leader levels in Air and Leadership and the mission type?
Range (long range = more opportunity to lose cohesion in clouds)?
Weather forecast for the general area?

At scenario start it is very common to get the kind of splintered attacks you describe. Once the pilots get some experience it gets a lot better, if you do not run the squadron too hard.



StasSche -> RE: B-17 Coordination (7/3/2020 3:48:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Zuck

From the Air coordination Guide (Pinned Post)
"Select different altitudes for your strikes in one area. This is important. You are unneccesarily confusing the game engine if you donīt."

So does this no longer hold true?


To the best of my understanding, this rule applies for the situation, when you launch a strike at several enemy's bases (e.g. the example in "Air coordination Guide" with attacking two enemy bases from three own, when only one own base has fighters).



GetAssista -> RE: B-17 Coordination (7/3/2020 5:09:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Zuck

From the Air coordination Guide (Pinned Post)
"Select different altitudes for your strikes in one area. This is important. You are unneccesarily confusing the game engine if you donīt."

So does this no longer hold true?

It never was true WRT the same target. Read again "2) Attacker has 2 fighter and 2 bomber squads at A and wants to attack B."
All the other cases also underline the importance of the same altitude for coordination



Coach Zuck -> RE: B-17 Coordination (7/3/2020 6:49:33 PM)

quote:

Have you looked at plane fatigue levels (affects how many will make it to launch)? How about pilot fatigue?
Unit experience level (the Experience factor at the left side of the pilot skills screen)?
Unit leader levels in Air and Leadership and the mission type?
Range (long range = more opportunity to lose cohesion in clouds)?
Weather forecast for the general area?


We are in August of 1942.
Experience all squadrons 60 or more (most over 70 in Air-Ground)
Range = 14 hexes
Attacking in Clear or Partly cloudy ... and when there are no clouds over target (Bad Weather Indicator)
Planes are ready to go with 0 damage and fatigues under 20 (many are single digit #)
Morale of all is 99 and squadron fatigue levels are all single digits

Issue might be squadron leaders all have 51+ in Leadership, but one has a sub 50 inspiration,
BUT half have 40 and lower as their Air skill.
Could this be it? Didn't think this would affect the bombers so much!

But then why are the squadrons with commanders with 60+ Air Skills only flying 5 or 6 out of 8 or 9 available planes?
(Squadrons just resized - August 2nd)





rockmedic109 -> RE: B-17 Coordination (7/3/2020 8:27:18 PM)

Could it be too many planes?

Every time I make a large attack, I get one or two good sized attacks and several one squadron attacks. I am probably doing something wrong.



Alfred -> RE: B-17 Coordination (7/3/2020 9:00:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

Could it be too many planes?

Every time I make a large attack, I get one or two good sized attacks and several one squadron attacks. I am probably doing something wrong.


No, this is consistent with the design philosophy discussed on pages 166 and 171 of the manual.

The single biggest difference re air operations in classical WITP and AE, is the considerable effort expended by the devs to remove the simultaneous arrival of a humungus package at exactly the same time over the target, replaced by the concept of raids in AE. These raids, just like in real life, can and do arrive in smaller consecutive packages over the target. It is the raid concept which allows for the representation of progressive degradation of CAP over the target.

Alfred



Alfred -> RE: B-17 Coordination (7/3/2020 9:09:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Zuck

From the Air coordination Guide (Pinned Post)
"Select different altitudes for your strikes in one area. This is important. You are unneccesarily confusing the game engine if you donīt."

So does this no longer hold true?


You have fundamentally misread LoBaron's guide.

In his guide, LoBaron is quite explicit in stating that it is easier to coordinate a raid of 40 aircraft than it is to do so when 80 aircraft are involved. The specific example he provides of sending one raid at 10k and another at 11k is to maximise the chances the bombers always have escorting fighters. The two different altitude raids are not coordinating with each other. Each of those exemplar raids are only coordinating their respective fighter squadrons, with the bombers which have been set to fly at the same altitude of the escorting fighter squadron,

This is where we start to enter the world of cooperative rather than coordinated raids. My next post deals with this.

Alfred



Alfred -> RE: B-17 Coordination (7/3/2020 9:27:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Zuck


...We are in August of 1942.
Experience all squadrons 60 or more (most over 70 in Air-Ground)
Range = 14 hexes
Attacking in Clear or Partly cloudy ... and when there are no clouds over target (Bad Weather Indicator)
Planes are ready to go with 0 damage and fatigues under 20 (many are single digit #)
Morale of all is 99 and squadron fatigue levels are all single digits

Issue might be squadron leaders all have 51+ in Leadership, but one has a sub 50 inspiration,
BUT half have 40 and lower as their Air skill.
Could this be it? Didn't think this would affect the bombers so much!

But then why are the squadrons with commanders with 60+ Air Skills only flying 5 or 6 out of 8 or 9 available planes?
(Squadrons just resized - August 2nd)




You are mistakenly conflating experience with skill levels. They are not the same thing and speak to different things. An air-ground rating of 70 plays no role in coordination algorithms.

There is a difference between air coordination and air cooperation. Suggest you read this thread and follow like a Hansel and Gretel bread crumb trail, all the linked threads in it (and so on down the chain) provided in LoBaron 's and my posts.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4131332&mpage=1&key=coordination�

There is a fundamental misunderstanding from so many players, that coordination means having hundreds of aircraft all arriving at exactly the same time (lets say 1305 hours) at the target. This is not what reality is about. In WWII it took hours for a coordinated raid of several hundred aircraft to conduct the mission over the target. AE incorporates reality with its raid design philosophy.

In AE coordination primarily is directed towards getting bombers to arrive over the target with escorting fighters. It isn't about getting 400 bombers and their 200 escorts to arrive simultaneously over the target at 1305 hours precisely with all ordnance delivered by 1310 hours.

BTW being fixated with individual squadrons, you aren't paying proper attention to the Air HQ.

Alfred



rockmedic109 -> RE: B-17 Coordination (7/3/2020 10:51:40 PM)

Thank you Alfred. The coordination being for fighter support more than number of bombers arriving sets me in the right direction.

In a game this complex, it is easy to get sidetracked {for me anyway} in the various parts and start using logic from one game aspect in another, similar aspect.

You point us in the right direction and do so without revealing too much of the underlying program. Your help and guidance is appreciated.



Coach Zuck -> RE: B-17 Coordination (7/4/2020 7:22:17 PM)

quote:

BTW being fixated with individual squadrons, you aren't paying proper attention to the Air HQ.


Thank you for your response Alfred, but perhaps you did not notice:

"Six squadrons - all in the same base with the same Air HQ, that Air HQ is in the hex as well,"

Most of the crumbs I saw referred to Fighter Sweeps and coordination from multiple bases.
I have squadrons in the same base, all of whom have the same AIR HQ in that same bas hex).




Alfred -> RE: B-17 Coordination (7/5/2020 12:50:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Zuck

quote:

BTW being fixated with individual squadrons, you aren't paying proper attention to the Air HQ.


Thank you for your response Alfred, but perhaps you did not notice:

"Six squadrons - all in the same base with the same Air HQ, that Air HQ is in the hex as well,"

Most of the crumbs I saw referred to Fighter Sweeps and coordination from multiple bases.
I have squadrons in the same base, all of whom have the same AIR HQ in that same bas hex).




I had not overlooked that statement. Why do you think I said "any proper attention". If I had overlooked your statement I would have said "you haven't factored in" or words to that effect.

My statement remains valid and correct.

Alfred



Yaab -> RE: B-17 Coordination (7/12/2020 5:53:11 AM)

Coach Zuck, check your combat reports for weather data. If your bombers bombed in rain/severe storms weather, you should see more uncoordinated attacks in those weather conditions. Bad weather seems to trump HQ matching/high group exp/high leader Air skill/cruise speed matching/altitude matching.



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