OMG, logistics making this game suck (Full Version)

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Poliorcetes -> OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/4/2020 5:09:50 PM)

So I conquered my first city. Got the morale up, built a truck station, converted to Regular zone, have plenty of food, etc. And my logistics system is crap. None of my units in the city or west of the city are getting supplies (despite Preview claiming they will). Barely getting supplies to units between the cities. Only units near my capital are getting supplies. I have a level 2 Truckstation in the capital and tons of every supply. I have no stop signs, I can see the ap so plenty of trucks getting to the units. But zero supplies even IN a city with a truck stop for a single unit.
I have over 2000 food, 2500 fuel in SHQ and my single unit in a city with a truck stop is at 0 supply for 2 turns now!

Honestly this sucks. I am a doctor, I have played strategy games (computer and board) for over 35 years now, I have made a Noob guide to learn what I am doing wrong/right. I have gone way beyond what the average player is going to do.
And after a week of play I can't get logistics to work beyond the capital city. After days of reading on the boards and rereading the manual, I can track the AP but have no clue how to figure out what my units are short of or why (though I just found the Stats which seem to list some details). There is no in game feedback helping me with this critical and game ending issue. This is like a beta build.

This could be an awesome game if it was actually playable . . . but for now its going back on the shelf for a few weeks. Maybe once you make the most important part of the game both understandable and accessible to non-programmers this will be worth the money I spent. I sincerely hope you can do it.

Poliorcetes



Tomn -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/4/2020 5:35:21 PM)

Yeah, the interface isn't always great at explaining where important information is - as I shall now demonstrate!

Click on on a unit, any unit, preferably one without supplies. Now, click on the supply indicator noting that it has zero supplies. Whammo! You can now see their requested supplies, what they actually got, and what their current stocks are!

For my next trick, click on your SHQ. Click the exact same button. Shazam! Now you can see where all your logistics points are going and what they're being spent on!

And yeah, the Stats screen has a lot of info to help diagnose what's going on as well, if you click the right tabs.

However, there's more to know!

The preview button DOESN'T show you that a given hex will have supplies. What it DOES show is that X amount of logistical capacity will be available AT THE START OF YOUR TURN, BEFORE CONSUMPTION. That means that if the preview is showing that a given hex will have, say, 1000 capacity but you have units there that will soak up 2000 capacity worth of supplies, they're going going to get half supplies next turn. So preview's only half the equation.

So let's talk about all the OTHER logistical overlays, all of which are important for diagnosing logistical issues! There's one overlay that shows logistics available at the START of your current turn - i.e., before consumption. There's ANOTHER overlay that shows current available logistics, i.e., AFTER consumption. If any of these are zero, you have a problem! But then there's the bottleneck overlay that'll show you exactly where those kinds of problems exist - a red overlay in the bottleneck view indicates a stressed supply line, and a black section means that you simply don't have enough logistical capacity in that hex to get out all the supplies that need to go in, so somehow or other you're gonna need to boost up logistical capacity in that hex!

The tools to diagnose supply issues ARE there, but I'll agree that they're not best explained or pointed out. Hope that helps!



lloydster4 -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/4/2020 6:33:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Poliorcetes
Honestly this sucks. I am a doctor


Someone get this man a tutorial. Stat!



zgrssd -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/4/2020 7:28:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Poliorcetes

Honestly this sucks. I am a doctor, I have played strategy games (computer and board) for over 35 years now, I have made a Noob guide to learn what I am doing wrong/right. I have gone way beyond what the average player is going to do.


If you are a doctor, you should understand that the blood can be saturated with something for purpose A, making it unable to carry stuff for purpose B, C and D.
Because that is exactly what is happening here!
Deliveries to the zone use up so much supply, there is nothing left to deliver food to units.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4834257

For a custom diagnosis, we need the initial logistics and bottleneck mapfilters.



jwarrenw13 -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/4/2020 8:14:09 PM)

Bottleneck overlay. Check. Easiest way to start diagnosing supply problems.



eddieballgame -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/4/2020 8:25:44 PM)

@zgrssd, you are a valuable contributor to this forum ( I have learned from you); hence I get the logistic system, in part thanks to you.

Your salty comment "If you are a doctor, you should understand" not withstanding. [:)]
The doctor, I am sure, is a busy person & probably more so then most of us considering the pandemic we all are facing.
Thus his/her time is (no doubt) too valuable to waste on a game that he/she is not enjoying.
Not sure if the new beta addresses this in a way that will help. (I am not using the new method as I like what is already in place)
The game does require, reading & playing (a lot) to understand it...which requires time that not everyone has, so there is that.
The more I play & learn the more I like this game...& I have a lot to learn.



zgrssd -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/4/2020 8:47:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eddieballgame

@zgrssd, you are a valuable contributor to this forum ( I have learned from you); hence I get the logistic system, in p
The game does require, reading & playing (a lot) to understand it...which requires time that not everyone has, so there is that.
The more I play & learn the more I like this game...& I have a lot to learn.

If you got limited time or reserves to learn, this game is definitely the wrong thing to pick up.
Even with time, it is propably a bad thing to pick up. The Documentation and Interface is...subpar.

Lacking the Leisure time to actually learn it, is a thing that can happen with this game[:)]



MultiPurposeCanine -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/4/2020 11:47:56 PM)

Making a thread with "oMg ThIs GaMe sUcKs, i Am a dOcToR yOu kNoW" is not salty? I am pretty sure he isnīt a Doctor of Medicine, they wouldnīt want to embarass themselves like this.

I have also little time to spent, donīt bring 35 years wargaming to the table, was too lazy to hit the manual, just watched some vids and memorized 4 sentences about logistics from the forums, play on normal difficulty from day 1, while winning my first, and donīt bring what I consider my rl achievements here to desperately get a point... What I am just doing wrong?



eddieballgame -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/5/2020 1:21:09 AM)

To be fair, the doctor did not say this game sucks...just the logistics part of it.
I, also, have no qualms about his mentioning that he is a doctor...for I am not.
Which means I am not as dumb as I thought when it comes to learning complex 4X games...though I do have extra time to do so. [:)]



Malevolence -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/5/2020 2:05:56 AM)

[image]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ImaginativeThirstyArctichare-size_restricted.gif[/image]



Malevolence -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/5/2020 2:24:39 AM)

[image]local://upfiles/34589/8EB0E60F5188442B9DA1703BCFA977D6.jpg[/image]

Think like a plumber.

Logistic Points are a liquid. The roads and rail lines are the pipes. Your supplies are carried on and consume the liquid from a SHQ to the delivery location. The weight of the cargo determines how much liquid is needed from the start point (e.g. SHQ) to the end point (e.g. unit, asset, city, etc.).

If there isn't enough pressure or if all the liquid has been consumed, the supplies don't arrive.

Traffic signs are like valves.

Truck stations and rail stations are the faucets, they create the liquid and pump a certain amount of pressure. Supply bases are just pumps that add a bit more pressure to the line.

With the pull system it became much simpler to prioritize the needed liquid to specific objects, like the units, assets, or cities.

Keep in mind, while real liquid systems are simplex in terms of flow, this system is full-duplex. (Yes, I mixed my metaphors a bit there.)



zgrssd -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/5/2020 11:52:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eddieballgame

To be fair, the doctor did not say this game sucks...just the logistics part of it.


The tital actually says "The game sucks because of logistics".
Maybe "the logistics sucks so bad, the game sucks because of it."

All while doing the usual beginners mistake of starving his troops during expansion.



eddieballgame -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/5/2020 7:08:34 PM)

Yes I read it, thus my comment...context.
Per the usual beginner's mistakes...I would be impressed if there was someone out there who did not make them.



jwarrenw13 -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/5/2020 9:29:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

[image]local://upfiles/34589/8EB0E60F5188442B9DA1703BCFA977D6.jpg[/image]

Think like a plumber.

Logistic Points are a liquid. The roads and rail lines are the pipes. Your supplies are carried on and consume the liquid from a SHQ to the delivery location. The weight of the cargo determines how much liquid is needed from the start point (e.g. SHQ) to the end point (e.g. unit, asset, city, etc.).

If there isn't enough pressure or if all the liquid has been consumed, the supplies don't arrive.

Traffic signs are like valves.

Truck stations and rail stations are the faucets, they create the liquid and pump a certain amount of pressure. Supply bases are just pumps that add a bit more pressure to the line.

With the pull system it became much simpler to prioritize the needed liquid to specific objects, like the units, assets, or cities.

Keep in mind, while real liquid systems are simplex in terms of flow, this system is full-duplex. (Yes, I mixed my metaphors a bit there.)



But from what I've been repeatedly told, I thought the water would just know where to go on its own. [:D]




zgrssd -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/5/2020 9:53:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

[image]local://upfiles/34589/8EB0E60F5188442B9DA1703BCFA977D6.jpg[/image]

Think like a plumber.

Logistic Points are a liquid. The roads and rail lines are the pipes. Your supplies are carried on and consume the liquid from a SHQ to the delivery location. The weight of the cargo determines how much liquid is needed from the start point (e.g. SHQ) to the end point (e.g. unit, asset, city, etc.).

If there isn't enough pressure or if all the liquid has been consumed, the supplies don't arrive.

Traffic signs are like valves.

Truck stations and rail stations are the faucets, they create the liquid and pump a certain amount of pressure. Supply bases are just pumps that add a bit more pressure to the line.

With the pull system it became much simpler to prioritize the needed liquid to specific objects, like the units, assets, or cities.

Keep in mind, while real liquid systems are simplex in terms of flow, this system is full-duplex. (Yes, I mixed my metaphors a bit there.)



But from what I've been repeatedly told, I thought the water would just know where to go on its own. [:D]



How would it know that?
It just tries to distribute itself equally over as much space as possible.



jwarrenw13 -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/5/2020 11:42:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

[image]local://upfiles/34589/8EB0E60F5188442B9DA1703BCFA977D6.jpg[/image]

Think like a plumber.

Logistic Points are a liquid. The roads and rail lines are the pipes. Your supplies are carried on and consume the liquid from a SHQ to the delivery location. The weight of the cargo determines how much liquid is needed from the start point (e.g. SHQ) to the end point (e.g. unit, asset, city, etc.).

If there isn't enough pressure or if all the liquid has been consumed, the supplies don't arrive.

Traffic signs are like valves.

Truck stations and rail stations are the faucets, they create the liquid and pump a certain amount of pressure. Supply bases are just pumps that add a bit more pressure to the line.

With the pull system it became much simpler to prioritize the needed liquid to specific objects, like the units, assets, or cities.

Keep in mind, while real liquid systems are simplex in terms of flow, this system is full-duplex. (Yes, I mixed my metaphors a bit there.)



But from what I've been repeatedly told, I thought the water would just know where to go on its own. [:D]



How would it know that?
It just tries to distribute itself equally over as much space as possible.


Exactly! Unless you use measures to prevent it from doing that.



Malevolence -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/5/2020 11:51:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

Exactly! Unless you use measures to prevent it from doing that.


Well, to be fair. Measuring wouldn't change anything (e.g. prevent), it would only provide data.

[;)] [:)]

Now with the pull system you get something that could suck a golf ball through a garden hose. [:'(]

[image]local://upfiles/34589/911ACF381447426281A38F62FE0F5D43.jpg[/image]



eddyvegas -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/6/2020 6:40:02 AM)

Try the beta patch. Logistics is way less complicated now. Just make sure you have enough output and the supply trucks pretty much take care of themselves.



jwarrenw13 -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/6/2020 6:51:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

Exactly! Unless you use measures to prevent it from doing that.


Well, to be fair. Measuring wouldn't change anything (e.g. prevent), it would only provide data.

[;)] [:)]

Now with the pull system you get something that could suck a golf ball through a garden hose. [:'(]

[image]local://upfiles/34589/911ACF381447426281A38F62FE0F5D43.jpg[/image]


Or the chrome off a trailer hitch? (Willie Nelson, as Wendell in The Electric Horseman) I might appreciate a system that good.



W8taminute -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/6/2020 1:11:55 PM)

In my current game, which is my fifth attempt at Shadow Empires, I've run into problems where units on the front line far from the SHQ are not receiving supply despite around 18000 logistics points to play with. When I examined my bottlenecks I could clearly see that there just isn't enough trucks or trains to cart food, petrol, ammunition etc to my battle units let alone bringing in goods and services back to SHQ from all my cities.

It's frustrating but it's realistic and the logistics system makes sense to me. My solution until I can get more zones defined and truck stations is to rotate low supply front line units out of the fight and closer to home where they can 'rest and refit'. This game works just like real life does. Try to think of it that way.



pzgndr -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/6/2020 2:53:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Poliorcetes
Honestly this sucks... I have played strategy games (computer and board) for over 35 years now


+1

Over 45 years now for me. And yes, I understand logistics is important; I was an Asst Brigade S4 logistics officer in Germany in the late 80s. And I understand some (many?) players perversely enjoy micromanaging things. But some (many?) players like us just want to play strategy and wouldn't mind having a simplified logistics system option so playing the game does not seem like work. Been there, done that; I want to play if/when I get a chance.

Seriously, must we micromanage trucks, truckstations, gas stations, traffic lights, etc.? I still have enough gray hairs from brigade deployments to Grafenwoehr and Hohenfels moving vehicles back and forth using railcars, 30' trailers, 40' trailers, and road marches. Give me an in-game AI assistant or something to do that crap; I don't want to. Just saying...



zgrssd -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/6/2020 2:58:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Poliorcetes
Honestly this sucks... I have played strategy games (computer and board) for over 35 years now


+1

Over 45 years now for me. And yes, I understand logistics is important; I was an Asst Brigade S4 logistics officer in Germany in the late 80s. And I understand some (many?) players perversely enjoy micromanaging things. But some (many?) players like us just want to play strategy and wouldn't mind having a simplified logistics system option so playing the game does not seem like work. Been there, done that; I want to play if/when I get a chance.

Seriously, must we micromanage trucks, truckstations, gas stations, traffic lights, etc.? I still have enough gray hairs from brigade deployments to Grafenwoehr and Hohenfels moving vehicles back and forth using railcars, 30' trailers, 40' trailers, and road marches. Give me an in-game AI assistant or something to do that crap; I don't want to. Just saying...


With the pull system, there is no more micromanagement in the Beta.
With 1.04beta4 the hard to find edge cases may even be most fixed.



jwarrenw13 -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/6/2020 3:21:35 PM)

Oops. Double post.



jwarrenw13 -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/6/2020 3:27:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Poliorcetes
Honestly this sucks... I have played strategy games (computer and board) for over 35 years now


+1

Over 45 years now for me. And yes, I understand logistics is important; I was an Asst Brigade S4 logistics officer in Germany in the late 80s. And I understand some (many?) players perversely enjoy micromanaging things. But some (many?) players like us just want to play strategy and wouldn't mind having a simplified logistics system option so playing the game does not seem like work. Been there, done that; I want to play if/when I get a chance.

Seriously, must we micromanage trucks, truckstations, gas stations, traffic lights, etc.? I still have enough gray hairs from brigade deployments to Grafenwoehr and Hohenfels moving vehicles back and forth using railcars, 30' trailers, 40' trailers, and road marches. Give me an in-game AI assistant or something to do that crap; I don't want to. Just saying...



Valid point. What unitin Germany? Germany 73-75 and 85-88. First time as an enlisted track driver, second time, after finishing college and lots of other adventures in the Army, as a PAO remf, both with 8th ID, Baumholder first time, 8th ID Hqs in Bad Kreuznach the second. Driving an M577 up on a rail car and off as a 19-year-old PFC was quite an adventure. Plus bonus deployment for REFORGER 84 as a company commander. I like the "micromanagement" but understand your view, too. It appears Vic will make us both happy with the new version and options regarding logistics. I argued from the start of the logistics argument for a basic/advanced mode, which appears to be what Vic is more or less doing.


Okay, I messed up somewhere, but what I was trying to post was my comment just above this sentence, lol.



Frostwave -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/6/2020 5:20:29 PM)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ4U5tQ6Ke8



Malevolence -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/6/2020 5:47:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Frostwave

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ4U5tQ6Ke8


[:D] roflmao

perfect



Malevolence -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/6/2020 5:53:28 PM)

pzgndr and jwarrenw13, thank you for your service!

[image]https://media.giphy.com/media/5yzvlzQFqePni/giphy.gif[/image]



Malevolence -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/6/2020 6:36:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Over 45 years now for me. And yes, I understand logistics is important; I was an Asst Brigade S4 logistics officer in Germany in the late 80s. And I understand some (many?) players perversely enjoy micromanaging things. But some (many?) players like us just want to play strategy and wouldn't mind having a simplified logistics system option so playing the game does not seem like work. Been there, done that; I want to play if/when I get a chance.

Seriously, must we micromanage trucks, truckstations, gas stations, traffic lights, etc.? I still have enough gray hairs from brigade deployments to Grafenwoehr and Hohenfels moving vehicles back and forth using railcars, 30' trailers, 40' trailers, and road marches. Give me an in-game AI assistant or something to do that crap; I don't want to. Just saying...



I think the (beta) game changes have made the logistic capacity better understood.

However, the subtext of (many of) these comments indicate players don't well understand the magnitude of cargo being moved on their LP's capacity.

I tried many times to suggest a more succinct, consolidated, and accounting-like reporting system. The details are there in the game, but they are spread across multiple view windows with wholly different formats, acronyms, and comparisons.

I've never raised a formation larger than Brigade so far. I keep those pretty simple--infantry and artillery. I add tanks as auxiliary.

That said, I'm still routinely surprised at the level of fuel and ammunition formations use. Replacement equipment (i.e. models), I think, remains a sore issue for everyone. It can be done, but it's not predictable as required without micro-management.

Assets and cities appear to have predicable and mostly fixed costs.

However, I know when I am building or upgrading in an SHQ city, everyone being supported by that SHQ needs to stop and wait. No other building or upgrading in any other cities.

I attempt to mitigate this issue by making sure each zone has organic generation of basic resources. Food, power, oil, and industry assets are ubiquitous. It helps, but never fully fixes the problem of the SHQ bottleneck.

There are at most 6 routes that can exit an SHQ. Once all routes are depleted, all deliveries stop. This is a key issue to watchlist.

It is for that reason, I've also suggested the ability to use control signs for truck, rail, and pull points separately--in order to facilitate up to 18 separated routes. However, no interest or support from the community.



pzgndr -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/6/2020 9:16:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
With the pull system, there is no more micromanagement in the Beta.
With 1.04beta4 the hard to find edge cases may even be most fixed.


So the next release should be better. I am still not enthusiastic about micromanaging supply chains.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13
Valid point. What unit in Germany? Germany 73-75 and 85-88. ... Plus bonus deployment for REFORGER 84 as a company commander. I like the "micromanagement" but understand your view, too.


1AD in Bamberg 87-90. Played in REFORGER 90 (last one) after the Berlin Wall fell, as a mech inf company commander. GDP position on the Czech border was history by then. Fascinating time to be on the Frontiers of Freedom.



jwarrenw13 -> RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck (7/6/2020 10:15:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
With the pull system, there is no more micromanagement in the Beta.
With 1.04beta4 the hard to find edge cases may even be most fixed.


So the next release should be better. I am still not enthusiastic about micromanaging supply chains.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13
Valid point. What unit in Germany? Germany 73-75 and 85-88. ... Plus bonus deployment for REFORGER 84 as a company commander. I like the "micromanagement" but understand your view, too.


1AD in Bamberg 87-90. Played in REFORGER 90 (last one) after the Berlin Wall fell, as a mech inf company commander. GDP position on the Czech border was history by then. Fascinating time to be on the Frontiers of Freedom.


I remember walking with a patrol on the East German border in 88 right before I came home for the last time (disclaimer -- not my normal job; 8th ID cav had relieved the regular cav unit on the border temporarily, and I went on a patrol as PAO along with a couple of my guys taking pix and shooting video) and just wondering if that madness would ever end and thinking it can't go on forever. And then a year later everything started changing.



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