Cheating (Full Version)

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Jamminji -> Cheating (8/1/2003 4:43:49 AM)

Hi All,

I am playing a new person... He seems to always be in the perfect place to kill me. Maybe I am just a terrible player but was wondering....

How can I tell if he is playing his turn once, to find where my units are, then reextracting the zips files that I sent him, and playing his turn again this time knowing where my units are located. It seems that he could do this as many times as required to get the outcome he wants.

Any way to tell? or any other possibilities?

jam



rbrunsman -> (8/1/2003 5:21:52 AM)

Just type the number "1" and the bottom of the screen will show how many loads/saves each player has done.

Example: You are Player #1. It's turn 10 and you've only saved out of a turn once to go get dinner; all the other times you played your turns straight through.

Your opponent, plays his turns and then Ctrl,Alt,Deletes out of the turn to replay it any number of times.

The screen at the bottom would look like this:

Player #1, loads = 11, saves = 11.
Player #2, loads = 60, saves = 20.

Or something like that. If you see a HUGE disparity between your loads and saves and his loads and saves then your opponent is probably doing something funny. There are ways to cheat without letting your opponent ever find out. But the above method catches most cheaters.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it could also mean you suck as a player and your opponent is simply able to run circles around you, so don't be too quick to call someone a cheater.

I thinks it's best to just not play the cheater again. Don't call him on it in a public forum. The cheater will get the message when noone will replay him. And, this saves the embarrassment caused from false accusations and such that can't really be proven anyway.



Belisarius -> (8/1/2003 6:07:57 AM)

rb is right, although if he's sneaky enough to delete the files and re-unzip the files, I guess the game won't be able to tell? :confused:



Jamminji -> (8/1/2003 8:17:40 AM)

AHHHHHH... so deleteing them and re-unzipping would be an undetectable cheat...darn it!!!! I thought so. I guess then.. it means that ya must trust the people you play with.



rbrunsman -> (8/1/2003 10:22:59 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamminji
[B]I guess then.. it means that ya must trust the people you play with. [/B][/QUOTE]

That sure enhances the experience!:D



chief -> (8/1/2003 10:23:45 AM)

Jamminji, are either of you using Airunits ?



Jamminji -> (8/1/2003 11:47:21 AM)

First off...lol RB, GOOD ONE!!!

Second... Chief, yes I have strike aircraft in one battle but not in another battle. He has no air in either.

BTW... these are the battles from the big Board game that I posted about.


jam



Toontje -> (8/1/2003 11:17:47 PM)

If someone has a spotter you didn't see that may also look like that.

Or (s)he may just be incredibly lucky.



Marek Tucan -> (8/2/2003 12:34:29 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Toontje
[B]If someone has a spotter you didn't see that may also look like that.

Or (s)he may just be incredibly lucky. [/B][/QUOTE]

Or another option from my painful experience: I have quite small HD, and still full, so I have only a little of the Virtual Memory and I got me quite often report 'Less than 5 megs of Virtual memory' while playing PBEM with my buddy:( Of course I had to reload:( And guess what: the OP fire that was missing before was now hitting:(



Vathailos -> However... (8/2/2003 3:09:08 AM)

What happens to those numbers if you're playing 2 or more games out of the same slot?

Currently, I'm playing 3 out of slot 8 (using Jess' tactics) and wonder what that looks like for that slot. Surfing from work and can't check now, but can't wait to see.

In addition, on a pretty regular basis, I'll watch the "combat-only" portion of the VCR playback, and then kill the application before the artillery. Then I'll load my turn and play it out. I almost always play on a long message delay setting. I used to have everything set to "0" but once did it slow and realized all kinds of useful messages. I'd never seen "Gun Optics Damaged" or "Crew Stunned" before. I learn a lot this way, but I hate sitting through (in one particular game close to 6 minutes of rounds falling) endless artillery bombardments. If a vehicle is shown as dead when I start my turn, and I didn't just see it killed, and there's small dots of smoke around it, I just assume it was an arty kill and move on. Does this add to my "numbers"?

If it does, is there a work-around? I'd prefer to continue to see that I've damaged a main gun, or have lost my smoke generators, but again find it unbearable to sit through Viking's 40 artillery pieces firing 8 rounds apiece ;).

Bottom line, I don't want to appear as though I'm cheating, as I think that cheating ruins the flavor of a victory.

Any help would be appreciated.

EDIT:

And as evidince in my favor, I'd like to introduce the "Jagedpanther Incident" as Exhibit A. I don't think you lose 7 in one turn, in one place, parked directly in front of enemy AT guns if you're out to win. :p



rbrunsman -> (8/2/2003 3:46:56 AM)

Vat:

Playing multiple games out of one slot doesn't effect anything.

A solution to your quiting out of the bombardments is to change the message delay setting. This is a freely changable setting. I often shorten it (~0.1 sec) if I know there is going to be alot of arty falling. I will make it longer (~0.8 sec) if I am really interested in seeing the results of combat. Quiting out of the bombardment phase of the replay seems like a no-no to me. You want to avoid the appearance of impropriety. Any activity should be avoided.

Playing with unreadable messages or skipping the vcr replay is just not a good idea. You can miss a "main gun destroyed" report, or the almost as good, "optics destroyed" messages if you can't read the battle results that flash by. Only V2, to my knowledge, regularly skips the vcr replay and does any good in a battle without knowing what happened during the opponent's turn.



VikingNo2 -> (8/2/2003 3:51:05 AM)

I know what got killed, and what is suppressed. :rolleyes:



Buzzard45 -> There are ways of testing for replays but they are inconclusive (8/2/2003 7:53:52 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamminji
[B]AHHHHHH... so deleteing them and re-unzipping would be an undetectable cheat...darn it!!!! I thought so. I guess then.. it means that ya must trust the people you play with. [/B][/QUOTE]

I once did an exhaustive search for proof that a player was replaying their turn. I set up three computers on the same desk and looked at the speed of each unit as displayed at the end of each turn or the beginning of the next. I replayed turns using the re-unzip method and looked at OP fire from the replay of the turn sent me and what happened when I moved units into LOS/LOF of my units as they were stated as spotted in the AAR. This was after passwords were exchanged at the end of the game.

I satisfied my curiousity. Did it enhance the pleasure of the game? NOT ONE LITTLE BIT. In fact it took away from it. I took to winning fairly and satisfied that I had done so. OR I lost the same way. Either way, I win. The alternative is....., either way I lose. I do use the tricks of the game that I learn by experience. One of them is to use spotters that hide before my turn is out. I spot you during my turn but when I send you the file there is no longer a "*" on that unit because he is no longer spotted. You will likely know that they have been spotted because next turn he will be attacked by a bigger fish.

"There is always a bigger fish" IIRC Quagar in Starwars.

I am like Rb. I play very carefully and deliberately, sometimes opening the game three times and only looking around. Not the replay, necessarily, but just looking and thinking. My opens and closes always match, unless there is a power failure, which happens. Like a chess player. Calculating ranges and targets and spotting and holes in the terrain and ammo and movement points and distance. The answers are usually there if you look for them.


My biggest bugaboo is the lack of OP fire from my carefully laid ambushes. If there is only one route through an ambush and my opponent takes it..... He is very lucky. Next time there is NO safe route through the ambush and he does not advance in that route. You see, you only need to play more carefully. There are plenty of turns to use. Don't be in a hurry to spring his ambushes. At a rate of three hexes per turn you can cross the whole 100 wide map in 33 turns. If you are part way and only need to go half-way, you can move much slower and with stealth and likely unseen and un-shot at.

Everyone who has been in any army can tell you that you will always need to " Hurry up and wait". That may be what you are seeing.



Belisarius -> Re: There are ways of testing for replays but they are inconclusive (8/2/2003 8:04:23 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Buzzard45
[B]I am like Rb. I play very carefully and deliberately, sometimes opening the game three times and only looking around. Not the replay, necessarily, but just looking and thinking.
[/B][/QUOTE]

As long as you do not move a single unit I guess that's OK. Otherwise you're on my list... ;) :mad: :p



rbrunsman -> (8/2/2003 8:14:12 AM)

Bel:
You're not seriously saying that we must play our turns in one sitting from first move to last without a save in between?:confused:



VikingNo2 -> (8/2/2003 2:18:12 PM)

Well Buzzard has given away one of my few remaining secrets, spotting then hiding the unt that did the spotting, it drives the guys that use the "*" allot nuts:rolleyes:



Belisarius -> (8/3/2003 4:09:06 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]Bel:
You're not seriously saying that we must play our turns in one sitting from first move to last without a save in between?:confused: [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmm that's what I do. :cool:

What I meant also was, ofcourse, that you don't restart the turn. :p Otherwise there's lots of recon to be carried out without your opponent suspecting a thing....



rbrunsman -> (8/3/2003 8:03:41 AM)

Restarting is a definite no-no, but that leads you to the obvious explanations you have to give when your loads exceed your saves. Try to explain that your computer crashes every time you play...



Capt. Pixel -> (8/3/2003 2:17:35 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B]Well Buzzard has given away one of my few remaining secrets, spotting then hiding the unt that did the spotting, it drives the guys that use the "*" allot nuts:rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

That's what I like to do. Move out until you're spotted, and then back up a bit to prevent being spotted through the next turn. This way, you may not know exactly where he is, but you've got a pretty good idea. :cool:



Marek Tucan -> (8/4/2003 12:16:32 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt. Pixel
[B]That's what I like to do. Move out until you're spotted, and then back up a bit to prevent being spotted through the next turn. This way, you may not know exactly where he is, but you've got a pretty good idea. :cool: [/B][/QUOTE]

My friend still complains to me that something's taking out his recon troops and he doesn't see it:) KV-1S over the hill:D And a battery of 85mm AAA;)



Capt. Pixel -> (8/4/2003 6:14:54 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marek Tucan
[B]My friend still complains to me that something's taking out his recon troops and he doesn't see it:) KV-1S over the hill:D And a battery of 85mm AAA;) [/B][/QUOTE]

In a situation like this, I've got to believe that your friend has not bothered to set his reconn's Range value to '0'. If it's set to a range of 1+, he'll usually be seen as soon as he moves into view. If he keeps it set to '0' and moves slowly, through cover, he'll be a lot harder to spot and keep spotted.

After you've been shot at (#), your Range gets reset to something other than '0'. Then it's time to set your range back to '0'.

This is true only for Infantry Scouts (Size=0) (and Squads under certain conditions like making a short movement, through heavy cover assaulting an unescorted, buttoned vehicle). Vehicles are almost always spotted if they move into view. (and often if they're not even moving)

Keep that Infantry Scout's Range at '0' and you can advance right up under his nose without being seen. :cool:

[SIZE=1]('Cheating'? Hmmmm... I don't [I]think[/I] so. Just better tactical control of the individual units, I'd say.)[/SIZE] ;)



Capt. Pixel -> Here's a 'Cheating' question (8/4/2003 6:49:05 AM)

So, Gentle Forum Readers, here's a couple of situations to gnaw on. Is it 'Cheating' or is it just a new way to use the flexibility of SPWaW?

[SIZE=1](Caveat: I do NOT and have NEVER used any of these 'tricks' against PBEM opponents who I don't know well. Fear not this kind of behaviour from Capt. Pixel)[/SIZE] :)

Situation #1

Faced with an overwhelming, fast moving US armored force, the Germans opt for a little uniform switch.

VolksGrenadiers on bicycles swap insignia with German Pioneer troops. (This is done on the information screen by clicking on the unit name (in Green) and typing in a new unit designation - can be done during Deploy or during the game)

Three platoons of bicycle Infantry then appear at nine different locations as Pioneers hiding in hedges over about 4 turns. The perceived threat held the US at bay, buyingn time for German armor to respond.

(On a side note: The true unit information was always partially available to the US player, had he bothered to right click one of the 'disguised' Germans.)

Situation #2

I saw this in some movie. Bugger your .50 cal jeep so it sounds like a column of Shermans coming up your side of the ridge.

In the game, you can rename that jeep just before it crests the ridge and potshots at the enemy. If they see the message 'M4A3 (76)w fires .50 cal AAMG' They may totally reconsider the situation they have to face on that hill.

Jeeps are nimble and fast. Scoot one up, shoot and scoot away, shoot again and disappear. Looks to the opponent as if at least two Shermans crested and fired (and then left??)

Situation #3

In WWII, infantrymen reported every tank as a 'Tiger' and every AAA emplacement as an '88'. Well, of course they didn't, but it makes a good story. Anyone under fire is not likely to take a real detailed look at that AAA emplacement and assess it's calibre.

To simulate this adage, rename all the German tanks, AGs and TDs to 'Tiger'. Do the same with ATGs and AAAs renamed as '88's. Then let your opponent sort out which is which.

The same could be done for trucks, ACs and various transports. Why should your opponent know how many MGs you have on your halftracks or amphibs? They still look like halftracks.

Renaming artillery is kind of pointless though. Unless you want to personalize the battery's name. ('Cindy Lou' fires 120mm barrage.)

This kind of 'personalization' can be seen in 'The Raiders go to Work' by Wild Bill Wilder. Others do it represent a more realistic company organizational structure - for 'flavor' (2s/3p/1Co).

So - is it cheating or just 'Mystifying and Misleading'??



Losqualo -> (8/4/2003 2:12:13 PM)

I never thought of renaming my units...

Capt. Pixel, could you please do me a favour and delete that post? I think Cyricist hasn't read that post yet, so I could give him a nasty surprise when we continue our PBEM Game :rolleyes: .

I wouldn't call that use of an in-game feature cheating. You don't use an external program, you don't use a flaw in the game and while getting an advantage over your enemy, he could do the same.



Belisarius -> (8/4/2003 2:14:52 PM)

Hmm Captain... I'm not sure what to call it. It would certainly add to the 'fog of war', but I wouldn't recommend it for a PBEM game, unless both sides are familiar with the use.

For situation #2 - why would anyone be more afraid of a Sherman 76 than a .50 cal Jeep? :D



Losqualo -> (8/4/2003 2:26:04 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Belisarius
[B]...For situation #2 - why would anyone be more afraid of a Sherman 76 than a .50 cal Jeep? :D [/B][/QUOTE]

It's crew would be more afraid, but I think we had [B]that one[/B] allready. ;) :rolleyes: :p



VikingNo2 -> (8/5/2003 1:44:37 AM)

I ( IMO ) don't think you should rename. Remaning arty was done to me and it looked like my opponent spent more than he should on arty. Anytime you get the OOB warning and strange stuff starts to happen people worry the the units have been edited as well as the names. There so many other things you can do, to make fog of war.



Buzzard45 -> Spies are shot on sight. (8/5/2003 1:47:26 AM)

Capt P. you asstound me. (no sp error). Wearing of the enemy's uniform is specifically prohibited in the Geneva Convention. (well, I heven't read the convention but it only seems that it should be in there). Any person or persons caught wearing the enemy's uniform may summorarily be shot as a spy.

Okay, so this isn't quite the same thing but its close equivalent. Hmmm? Lorne Green did drag trees behind horses to make the Apaches think that there were more of them and John Wayne was known to try a hoodwink or two himself. Hmmm? What would Confusious say? Lets see IIRC.

"If you have three roses and a chair, then you call a chair a rose. How many roses do you have? Answer only three- calling anything a rose does not make it so."

Cheating? No! Unethical? I'd go for that and its just about about as bad. To be sure I think we should add it to "Gary's Rules of Engagement"

:cool: :cool:



Capt. Pixel -> How's about this? (8/5/2003 10:30:09 AM)

Situation #4 (per Buzzard45's suggestion)

Your German infiltrators are going behind enemy lines to redirect the Allied advance. English speaking Germans dressed as US Army MPs directing traffic (Sound familiar?)

So you rename your infiltrators 'US Rifle Squad' in hopes that your opponent won't notice the enemies behind his lines. (Of course, you opponent would have to be pretty inept to fall for that one. :eek: )

This subject of renaming (which I bring up occasionally) always stirs up a hornets nest of opinion. hehe :D

Why else do you think I do it? (Besides, M4Jess {TigerJess??} has been so quiet lately. :rolleyes: I'm just not used to it)

Incidentally, I agree with VikingNo2. Renaming isn't cricket in a PBEM. Unless both parties agree to 'no holds barred, anything goes'.

I [I]do[/I] however, rename my artillery for my own bookkeeping purposes. Any arty unit that has expended all it's ammo or :shudder: broken it's gun gets renamed 'Empty'. This way I don't try to plot a unit that appears ready to fire a barrage, but, in fact, has no tubes to fire with. This doesn't impact the opponent in any reasonable fashion. (Until your enemy finds your arty park - in which case, who cares what they're named - they're gonna die anyway. ;) )

:cool:



VikingNo2 -> (8/5/2003 2:32:15 PM)

Renaming them Capt Pixels Death Cannons would be fine with me but naming them 81mm when they are 120mm is what I'm talking about:cool:



Belisarius -> (8/5/2003 3:20:34 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B]Renaming them Capt Pixels Death Cannons would be fine with me but naming them 81mm when they are 120mm is what I'm talking about:cool: [/B][/QUOTE]

Uh.. does that make any difference? Except for cases where you've agreed on limitations on +100mm arty.... :p



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