RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A)

RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (Full Version)

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Q-Ball -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 4:21:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball On the Luzon B-17s....at start, the USAAF generally has more bomber units than bombers. Wouldn't it be easier to fly other 4E units to India, and disband the Luzon units? Eventually those bombers will be back in the pool and you can deploy them. You may actually have full-strength bomber units at that point! Would save the PPs That was my thought too, but I do want to use them to raid some ports initially to slow down Japan a bit, or at least get them to send fighters to some spots. So I am torn. I am not sure how long an air bridge will be in existence to fly from SRA to India that could accommodate B17s, so that means shipping from East Coast, to Cape Town and there to India. A long trip. The Philippine B17 can get there a month sooner. I am not 100% versed in off map movement. I read the manual, remember a fair number of tips from Bullwinkle and NYgiants, but for the life of me I can't find rough movement times from area to area or off map location to on map entry point. You can easily fly some units to India in December; Hawaii--Canton Island--Suva--Brisbane--Darwin--Soerbaya--Trincomalee. You don't really have to wait for planes to repair, you can just disband them. Much faster than shipping to Capetown, plus a sub can't get them. Shorter range units have to be shipped, but on Dec 7 in most scenarios there is a Fighter Group and Bomber group in Eastern US ready to go

Lowpe -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 4:28:06 PM)
One of the off the wall tactics I will be pursing in this game is to encourage Partisan attacks. One method I will be pursuing is to bomb the ground units at rear area bases that hopefully have garrison requirements to encourage Partisan attacks. It is my understanding, if the Partisan attack does damage....well then all sort of good things happen. There is no supply transited thru that hex (this might only need a 1 vp loss and partisans might not have to cause damage -- can't remember) and 10% of the supplies are destroyed. The chance of a partisan attack is tied into how far below the garrison the AV drops. Japan has a lot of bases that need garrisons, and a lot are on important supply routes...so supplies might be forced off road/rail and incur greater wastage too. Not all the time of course...dependent upon terrain, etc, etc. Can you see the JFB wondering why in the world I would be pursuing such a strange tactic...I think they would assign it to experience farming or spreading the defense.[;)] Some bases, like Moulmein (pictured) will most likely have strong garrisons and encouraging partisans there won't be too succesful, but airfield attacks can destroy supply stockpiles, and port attacks can destroy fuel.... Decent recon and the rule of 30 will help in estimating raw av at these bases, but I am unaware of any legitimate Allied source of understanding the Japanese garrison requirements. Is there one? Otherwise I will have to use common sense estimates... Just double checked...partisan damage inflicted is needed to stop supply transit thru hex only...I remembered it incorrectly.[:)] But 1vp and 10% supply loss occurs even without partisans causing damage...just need to get an attack. [image]local://upfiles/44178/014FC5B601E14D0981F3DFF656259D9A.jpg[/image]

Alfred -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 4:30:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball On the Luzon B-17s....at start, the USAAF generally has more bomber units than bombers. Wouldn't it be easier to fly other 4E units to India, and disband the Luzon units? Eventually those bombers will be back in the pool and you can deploy them. You may actually have full-strength bomber units at that point! Would save the PPs That was my thought too, but I do want to use them to raid some ports initially to slow down Japan a bit, or at least get them to send fighters to some spots. So I am torn. I am not sure how long an air bridge will be in existence to fly from SRA to India that could accommodate B17s, so that means shipping from East Coast, to Cape Town and there to India. A long trip. The Philippine B17 can get there a month sooner. I am not 100% versed in off map movement. I read the manual, remember a fair number of tips from Bullwinkle and NYgiants, but for the life of me I can't find rough movement times from area to area or off map location to on map entry point. Look for Table 6.2.10.3 of the manual. TFs in their holding boxes can be accessed and the TF screen gives the number of days to reach the destination. Alfred

Lowpe -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 4:33:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball On the Luzon B-17s....at start, the USAAF generally has more bomber units than bombers. Wouldn't it be easier to fly other 4E units to India, and disband the Luzon units? Eventually those bombers will be back in the pool and you can deploy them. You may actually have full-strength bomber units at that point! Would save the PPs That was my thought too, but I do want to use them to raid some ports initially to slow down Japan a bit, or at least get them to send fighters to some spots. So I am torn. I am not sure how long an air bridge will be in existence to fly from SRA to India that could accommodate B17s, so that means shipping from East Coast, to Cape Town and there to India. A long trip. The Philippine B17 can get there a month sooner. I am not 100% versed in off map movement. I read the manual, remember a fair number of tips from Bullwinkle and NYgiants, but for the life of me I can't find rough movement times from area to area or off map location to on map entry point. You can easily fly some units to India in December; Hawaii--Canton Island--Suva--Brisbane--Darwin--Soerbaya--Trincomalee. You don't really have to wait for planes to repair, you can just disband them. Much faster than shipping to Capetown, plus a sub can't get them. Shorter range units have to be shipped, but on Dec 7 in most scenarios there is a Fighter Group and Bomber group in Eastern US ready to go Do AFBs fly B17s into level 2 runways for transit without concerns?

Alfred -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 4:41:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe ... I am unaware of any legitimate Allied source of understanding the Japanese garrison requirements. Is there one?... You rrrrangggg ... Bring up base list, display "All bases" (Japanese controlled bases will now appear in red) and toggle on garrison filter. Alfred

Lowpe -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 4:42:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball On the Luzon B-17s....at start, the USAAF generally has more bomber units than bombers. Wouldn't it be easier to fly other 4E units to India, and disband the Luzon units? Eventually those bombers will be back in the pool and you can deploy them. You may actually have full-strength bomber units at that point! Would save the PPs That was my thought too, but I do want to use them to raid some ports initially to slow down Japan a bit, or at least get them to send fighters to some spots. So I am torn. I am not sure how long an air bridge will be in existence to fly from SRA to India that could accommodate B17s, so that means shipping from East Coast, to Cape Town and there to India. A long trip. The Philippine B17 can get there a month sooner. I am not 100% versed in off map movement. I read the manual, remember a fair number of tips from Bullwinkle and NYgiants, but for the life of me I can't find rough movement times from area to area or off map location to on map entry point. Look for Table 6.2.10.3 of the manual. TFs in their holding boxes can be accessed and the TF screen gives the number of days to reach the destination. Alfred I did, but there is no context for the number published -- or more likely I am missing it. [:)] Does each increment of 5 equal roughly one day of travel? I am sure task force speed will improve on this SR number, perhaps substantially. There is the old flank speed for off map to off map movement, but it feels abusive to me. [image]local://upfiles/44178/21E8B0A9C4BC47F4AA8DB2E4EA69088F.jpg[/image]

Alfred -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 4:43:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe Do AFBs fly B17s into level 2 runways for transit without concerns? Grrrrr!! Alfred

Lowpe -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 4:45:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe ... I am unaware of any legitimate Allied source of understanding the Japanese garrison requirements. Is there one?... You rrrrangggg ... Bring up base list, display "All bases" (Japanese controlled bases will now appear in red) and toggle on garrison filter. Alfred I did that, but it shows 0...I guess it is a preturn filter and once the first turn is processed numbers will flow like candy? [image]local://upfiles/44178/6DA61C226BA940EB8F556BFBC9CA4D57.jpg[/image]

Alfred -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 4:46:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball On the Luzon B-17s....at start, the USAAF generally has more bomber units than bombers. Wouldn't it be easier to fly other 4E units to India, and disband the Luzon units? Eventually those bombers will be back in the pool and you can deploy them. You may actually have full-strength bomber units at that point! Would save the PPs That was my thought too, but I do want to use them to raid some ports initially to slow down Japan a bit, or at least get them to send fighters to some spots. So I am torn. I am not sure how long an air bridge will be in existence to fly from SRA to India that could accommodate B17s, so that means shipping from East Coast, to Cape Town and there to India. A long trip. The Philippine B17 can get there a month sooner. I am not 100% versed in off map movement. I read the manual, remember a fair number of tips from Bullwinkle and NYgiants, but for the life of me I can't find rough movement times from area to area or off map location to on map entry point. Look for Table 6.2.10.3 of the manual. TFs in their holding boxes can be accessed and the TF screen gives the number of days to reach the destination. Alfred I did, but there is no context for the number published -- or more likely I am missing it. [:)] Does each increment of 5 equal roughly one day of travel? I am sure task force speed will improve on this SR number, perhaps substantially. There is the old flank speed for off map to off map movement, but it feels abusive to me. [image]local://upfiles/44178/21E8B0A9C4BC47F4AA8DB2E4EA69088F.jpg[/image] Off-map to off-map is the same calculation as for on map movement. Hex distance/hex speed of slowest ship in TF. The manual is silent on distance from holding box to off-map destination. Alfred

Alfred -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 4:50:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe ... I am unaware of any legitimate Allied source of understanding the Japanese garrison requirements. Is there one?... You rrrrangggg ... Bring up base list, display "All bases" (Japanese controlled bases will now appear in red) and toggle on garrison filter. Alfred I did that, but it shows 0...I guess it is a preturn filter and once the first turn is processed numbers will flow like candy? [image]local://upfiles/44178/6DA61C226BA940EB8F556BFBC9CA4D57.jpg[/image] I said "All bases", not "Enemy". Alfred

Evoken -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 4:57:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe Do AFBs fly B17s into level 2 runways for transit without concerns? I usually lose 1 per squadron on the way but time is precious on the early war , i would rather have those squadrons on the frontline when needed [:D]

Alfred -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 5:04:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Evoken quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe Do AFBs fly B17s into level 2 runways for transit without concerns? I usually lose 1 per squadron on the way but time is precious on the early war , i would rather have those squadrons on the frontline when needed [:D] Time is not that important. There are no B-17D replacements. Losing 1 per hop can add up, not overlook the disabling element. Even with its weak defensive armament, transfer losses may well exceed losses to direct enemy action. The B-17E doesn't come in until mid 1942, at a low production rate, so one can't just frivously throw away B-17Ds which will suffer combat attrition anyway. Alfred

BBfanboy -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 5:07:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe Do AFBs fly B17s into level 2 runways for transit without concerns? Grrrrr!! Alfred I think that means "that is a bad idea"! [:D] My rule of thumb for transfer bases is one level below what you need for the plane with a full load. So the B-17 needs a level 5 base to carry a full bomb load, level 4 at least recommended for transit.

Lowpe -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 5:11:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe Do AFBs fly B17s into level 2 runways for transit without concerns? Grrrrr!! Alfred I think that means "that is a bad idea"! [:D] My rule of thumb for transfer bases is one level below what you need for the plane with a full load. So the B-17 needs a level 5 base to carry a full bomb load, level 4 at least recommended for transit. No wonder Japan has it so tough! Most of you AFBs abuse the game system! [:D] JFB's never do that![:-] /sarc [:D][:D]

Lowpe -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 5:13:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred The manual is silent on distance from holding box to off-map destination. Alfred Thanks, that helps. I always feeling I am missing something somewhere.

BBfanboy -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 5:16:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe Dec 7th Pre Turn PP expenditures: 100 points total: 8 Corp Commander switches in China Dec 9th Turn PP: 254th Armored Bde 5 points CNAC Transport Sqdrn 50 points Remainder: HQ and Corp Commanders in China Dec 11th Turn PP: 2nd KNIL AA Btln 18 points That is as far as I have gotten. I am kind of loath to buy out units for rebuilding....rather let them die. The air squadrons on Luzon look nice, but all withdraw eventually in 42 sometime. So, I am tempted to use them from Mindanao and disband them. The B17s though are awfully tempting to buy out. 32 pp, they can get to Ledo very easily and start ferrying supplies once the runway reaches 5. Even Calcutta is only a 4 though...so they would sit idle training for a while. Or with poor pilots they can do nuisance raids against Japanese bases. On the fence here both options are attractive. I am not too interested in buying out a full US Division, because I have a hard time seeing where I would use it effectively (other than India). I think I can hold off till January for shipping large combat units there. There is a wonderful synergy in shipping US forces to Cape Town and once there deciding to send them to India or Oz, but I suspect that is a much longer trip than to Oz directly (but safer perhaps). So I am assigning a probability of final usage of Oz versus India. Those with a good likelihood of Oz usage will go there via New Zealand and risk the IJN interception. I think I will be hard pressed early on to get the required shipping together for all the free units anyhow. Especially if planning a Marcus Island gambit. I would like to have a few PP stored up as a reserve, and also perhaps to change leaders in Malaya, Burma and India to go along with my aggressive use in China. China is always going to need some spare PP for leader changes. Plus, then there are the naval commanders and air leaders that all need changing....this is probably where the bulk of turn 3 PP go. Turn 4 I should be able to buy out more Indian/British/Commonwealth units for air shipment to China, or to risk a ship transit to Rangoon. I think I am really going to burn thru the first four hundred points doing a lot of leader changes and very modest unit buyouts. I don't think that is typical AFB behavior. I can easily see spending close to 1000 points on leader changes in December. What actual practical in game effect is there to be had in switching Kimmel out for someone with Nimitz being the obvious choice? I am not sure I see one early on unless Pearl is a battlefield. It is a Command HQ, and my intuition is to put in the best choice for all the hidden benefits as soon as possible. [image]local://upfiles/44178/94FF0DE3F1244351A2F9187AC10DB3F0.jpg[/image] I see nothing wrong with buying that transport squadron out to the China Air Task Force HQ, at 12 points instead of 50 (assuming it is going to be used within China or flying stuff to China). EDIT: +1 on leaving Kimmel at PH. Put Nimitz in charge of an Air Combat TF and let your opponent know you have a Nimitz Carrier TF ...[:D]

Lowpe -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 5:17:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred I said "All bases", not "Enemy". Alfred No joy here...I opened up a different game and it shows "your side's" garrison requirements or I am doing something horribly wrong. Although this particular screen is one I should check far more often than I ever do.[&o]

Lowpe -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 5:20:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy I see nothing wrong with buying that transport squadron out to the China Air Task Force HQ, at 12 points instead of 50 (assuming it is going to be used within China or flying stuff to China). This was an old HR from Jocke days....no active HQ, have to spend full PP to change air squadrons. Japan can really spam this. Not sure what the Empire is doing in this game, don't want to burden him with HRs but I feel uncomfortable doing it and that is what matters. PP can really be gamed to such an nth degree...I just feel too uncomfortable to do it knowingly.

Lowpe -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 5:25:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy EDIT: +1 on leaving Kimmel at PH. Put Nimitz in charge of an Air Combat TF and let your opponent know you have a Nimitz Carrier TF ...[:D] I like Kimmel. His family continually tries to clear his name or reinstate all his stars. I think the Senate approved but no President has signed it that I recall. Mentioned this a bit in one of my old AARs.[:)] How much does Nimitz cost to put in charge of CV TF? Is he even a choice?

Lowpe -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 5:49:38 PM)
Just heard from Japan, and they are open to shutting the M8 to Sam loophole down. Curious request, he wants to switch to PDU off. I am not sure that is possible without redoing all the already completed data entry. Anyone know for sure? PDU on or off, I don't care and left that choice to him from the beginning. I am like Mr. Kane here and think it has little real game impact with the exception of perhaps weakening Japan's night fighter defense which may or may not even play a role in the game.

cantona2 -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 6:51:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe Just heard from Japan, and they are open to shutting the M8 to Sam loophole down. Curious request, he wants to switch to PDU off. I am not sure that is possible without redoing all the already completed data entry. Anyone know for sure? PDU on or off, I don't care and left that choice to him from the beginning. I am like Mr. Kane here and think it has little real game impact with the exception of perhaps weakening Japan's night fighter defense which may or may not even play a role in the game. I do not think you can change the PDU setting once passwords have been set.

Anachro -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 6:53:10 PM)
Nope, if you decided to change settings now, he'd have to go back and re-do all his turn 1 orders, and you've already been waiting for awhile. Not to mention, in some ways I think PDU off is a more complex game than PDU on for Japan.

GetAssista -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 7:18:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe Curious request, he wants to switch to PDU off. I am not sure that is possible without redoing all the already completed data entry. Anyone know for sure? He would have to redo everything. Or just follow the designated upgrade paths himself while in a PDU ON, and trust you to do the same. quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe ... I am unaware of any legitimate Allied source of understanding the Japanese garrison requirements. Is there one?... There are none from the opposite side. But you can always load up a scenario for the opposite side. Garrison requirements do not change through the play.

BBfanboy -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 7:19:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy EDIT: +1 on leaving Kimmel at PH. Put Nimitz in charge of an Air Combat TF and let your opponent know you have a Nimitz Carrier TF ...[:D] I like Kimmel. His family continually tries to clear his name or reinstate all his stars. I think the Senate approved but no President has signed it that I recall. Mentioned this a bit in one of my old AARs.[:)] How much does Nimitz cost to put in charge of CV TF? Is he even a choice? Nimitz appears in the leader list in early 1942. I am not sure of the PP expenditure - likely the same as putting in Spruance or Halsey as the TF commander. I think he can be put in command of a carrier and that carrier made the TF flag.

RangerJoe -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 7:39:48 PM)
I think that it is 35 to 38 days transit from East Coast to Cape Town when you don't use your own ships. West Coast > Oahu > Pago Pago > New Zealand or even Australia. The shorter the distance, the less chance of damage or OPs loss, I do believe. Damaged aircraft in fragments can be disband into another unit at the same base. Excess repaired aircraft in the receiving unit can then be sent to the Pools. One plane only in the Unit to Australia and then it can take Replacements from the Pools. If the fragment gets repaired and can make it to the parent, it will try to do so. PBYs if they can't make Hawaii. San Francisco > Prince Rupert > Dutch Harbor > Midway > Oahu.

Lowpe -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 8:45:12 PM)
Thanks everyone, lots of good input there and I will pass it along.[&o] I definitely can play voluntary PDU off if that is the option.

Lowpe -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 9:22:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy EDIT: +1 on leaving Kimmel at PH. Put Nimitz in charge of an Air Combat TF and let your opponent know you have a Nimitz Carrier TF ...[:D] I found Nimitz in the leader list...good Naval very poor air rating. So SAG group leader only, or command of a CV under a good TF Commander. I found one reason to change Kimmel out, and that is that many naval squads (30+) are disabled, at least in my test run. Putting a better admin leader would get those squads back in shape faster thus aiding naval repairs. A squad if I remember correctly provide 2 or 3 IRP depending upon ship mode. An interesting thought, would be to send one system damaged ship to Lahaina and Molokai to enjoy the Naval Support squads ranged bonus to speed repairs. Wouldn't be much 60 effective squads at Molokai and 30 at Lahaina once the naval squads weren't disabled.... Talking Pearl repairs, I always seem to prioritize getting the smaller ships out and about. I find them very useful, while the battleships are pretty much vp generators for Japan early on. I don't feel any pressure about repairing them...just losing them. Pearl though could be an invasion target...so there is that, or having the KB hang around and bomb them into oblivion.

Lowpe -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/27/2020 9:49:09 PM)
Anybody know the story of this unit? I read about the history, briefly, of the Cavite Base...trying to understand why it is unrestricted. I recall Bullwinkle or NYgiants made it a priority for getting some of it and down to Oz as I recall. Also, it upgrades to a very nice SCR radar set. The Allies seem to start with very few naval squads overall...and this one is at 200% TOE initially. [image]local://upfiles/44178/BB99C90FF1254AEEAC1A0DF0E873F172.jpg[/image]

Lowpe -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/28/2020 1:04:07 AM)
Did some testing, and Kimmel absolutely has to go. Actually, a pretty high importance on this. Maybe not with Nimitz though. I am really burning thru the PP in changing leaders. I think I might have doubled my earlier estimate now....maybe tripled. Ugh. Need to do some critical pathing here. No point in changing leaders if I can't fully use them at start.

rustysi -> RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) (7/28/2020 1:30:34 AM)
There are a number of Allied air units that may be withdrawn early on for PP's. AFAIK they'll be withdrawn eventually, and I doubt their training is any good. As I don't play the Allies I've no idea if its worth it or not. Something to think about if you are not aware.

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