Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (Full Version)

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Lowpe -> Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/11/2020 7:48:42 PM)

I started testing how the refuel options for CS task forces work, with waypoint refueling options chosen for the destination hex.

So: Home Port Palembang. Destination Port: Singapore. Waypoint set to Singapore.

Options:

Master Task Force options: Full, Tactical, Minimal, Do Not Refuel
Waypoint options: Full, Tactical, Minimal, Do Not Refuel

Anybody know how this will work out? I searched for Alfred's posts on the subject, but no joy, I did only look for 5 minutes though.[;)]



RangerJoe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/11/2020 8:04:46 PM)

You don't need to set the waypoint to Singapore if you want the TF to refuel at Palembang. If you want to travel through base hexes, you those as your waypoints. Have minefields and possibly SCs there on an ASW patrol. Set "do not refuel" at the waypoints so they won't waste time there. Have them return by the same route if you have the minefields and ASW TFs there.

Full refuel - a full load of fuel
Tactical refuel - the minimum needed to get there plus 25% for tactical maneuvaring
Minimal refuel - just the fuel needed with no extras.

That is just off the top of my head without looking things up in the manual.

Don't forget to have an AMc at those bases in case the enemy lays mines there.



BBfanboy -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/11/2020 8:09:12 PM)

I use waypoints for CS TFs with no problem. I usually change the default Master TF refueling option to "Minimal" if I do not want it to pull fuel from the destination port. I check TFs on my around-the-map routine and fuel up the TF when it gets back to Home Port. If it does not have enough range to get back without refueling, I set an enroute refueling port and set "minimal refuel". The AI treats that as enough fuel to finish the round trip plus a small amount (10%?). This is handy in the Aleutians and for anything going past PH.



Lowpe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 12:08:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I use waypoints for CS TFs with no problem. I usually change the default Master TF refueling option to "Minimal" if I do not want it to pull fuel from the destination port. I check TFs on my around-the-map routine and fuel up the TF when it gets back to Home Port. If it does not have enough range to get back without refueling, I set an enroute refueling port and set "minimal refuel". The AI treats that as enough fuel to finish the round trip plus a small amount (10%?). This is handy in the Aleutians and for anything going past PH.


I can't tell you how many task forces set on minimal or tactical refuel, fill all the way up at least for Japan.

What I am curious here is will the waypoint setting fuel settings override the master task force settings or vice versa? I chose Palembang to Singers because it is short and won't take that many days to figure out how the system basically works, and hopefully I can extrapolate it to longer distances.



Lowpe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 12:10:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

You don't need to set the waypoint to Singapore if you want the TF to refuel at Palembang. If you want to travel through base hexes, you those as your waypoints. Have minefields and possibly SCs there on an ASW patrol. Set "do not refuel" at the waypoints so they won't waste time there. Have them return by the same route if you have the minefields and ASW TFs there.

Full refuel - a full load of fuel
Tactical refuel - the minimum needed to get there plus 25% for tactical maneuvaring
Minimal refuel - just the fuel needed with no extras.

That is just off the top of my head without looking things up in the manual.

Don't forget to have an AMc at those bases in case the enemy lays mines there.


You misunderstand my purpose.

I want the task force to leave fuel rich origination port, arrive at destination point and not refuel or only minimally, and then return to origination port and refuel while using the CS system.





RangerJoe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 12:54:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

You don't need to set the waypoint to Singapore if you want the TF to refuel at Palembang. If you want to travel through base hexes, you those as your waypoints. Have minefields and possibly SCs there on an ASW patrol. Set "do not refuel" at the waypoints so they won't waste time there. Have them return by the same route if you have the minefields and ASW TFs there.

Full refuel - a full load of fuel
Tactical refuel - the minimum needed to get there plus 25% for tactical maneuvaring
Minimal refuel - just the fuel needed with no extras.

That is just off the top of my head without looking things up in the manual.

Don't forget to have an AMc at those bases in case the enemy lays mines there.


You misunderstand my purpose.

I want the task force to leave fuel rich origination port, arrive at destination point and not refuel or only minimally, and then return to origination port and refuel while using the CS system.


I believe that I understood that. But for longer distances, check the distance traveled between ports, the lowest endurance for the ships in the convoy, and you will be able to see if you need to refuel for the round trip, then make the refueling choice. You should not have to refuel between the two ports selected so you could try the "do not refuel" at the way point at Singapore just to see if what you posted works as you desire. But check the convoy before it gets back to Palembang and refuels.



Lowpe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 2:52:04 AM)

Ah, but you see, I want to set them up once and then forget them, never to see a click again for years.[:)]



Lowpe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 3:31:52 AM)

Some basic findings so far.



[image]local://upfiles/44178/820B7D5BB83547338DD791350535548B.jpg[/image]



RangerJoe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 3:42:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Ah, but you see, I want to set them up once and then forget them, never to see a click again for years.[:)]


Then set it up, check it and if it is doing what you want, leave it alone until a SCTF wipes it out.



BBfanboy -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 4:14:17 AM)

I vaguely recall duplicate unit artwork problems happening a few years ago after a patch or a Windows update. IIRC there was a switch that fixed that - perhaps the -dd_sw one?

As for the tanker refueling issues - I wonder if having the destination and the waypoint the same are confusing the AI? Perhaps try the waypoint at the island below Singers? The waypoint and other routing instructions should not disappear on the return trip.

If you are delivering fuel to Singers, they should not whine about you taking a few drams to avoid having to monitor the TF again. Set it to Full Refuel and weigh anchor!



Alfred -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 9:22:41 AM)

Lowpe,

You are over complicating this.

1.  The refuel conditions for a CS convoy are different to those of a normal human controlled TF.

2.  The "Do Not Refuel" toggle is not active at the home port of a CS convoy.

3.  A CS convoy will auto refuel at it's home port provided it can dock.


Consequently all you have to do is:

(a) set up your CS convoy with Palembang as the Home port.

(b) toggle the CS convoy to not refuel

(c) set Singapore as the destination

The CS convoy should refuel once it returns to Palembang.


Generally speaking, a CS convoy should not be routed through terra firma waypoints , especially if there is any lingering at the terra firma waypoint.

Alfred



fcooke -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 10:06:01 AM)

Alfred showing off his Latin skills.....[:'(]



Lowpe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 11:14:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Lowpe,

You are over complicating this.

1.  The refuel conditions for a CS convoy are different to those of a normal human controlled TF.

2.  The "Do Not Refuel" toggle is not active at the home port of a CS convoy.

3.  A CS convoy will auto refuel at it's home port provided it can dock.


Consequently all you have to do is:

(a) set up your CS convoy with Palembang as the Home port.

(b) toggle the CS convoy to not refuel

(c) set Singapore as the destination

The CS convoy should refuel once it returns to Palembang.


Generally speaking, a CS convoy should not be routed through terra firma waypoints , especially if there is any lingering at the terra firma waypoint.

Alfred


Thanks Alfred.[&o]



Lowpe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 11:27:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I vaguely recall duplicate unit artwork problems happening a few years ago after a patch or a Windows update. IIRC there was a switch that fixed that - perhaps the -dd_sw one?

As for the tanker refueling issues - I wonder if having the destination and the waypoint the same are confusing the AI? Perhaps try the waypoint at the island below Singers? The waypoint and other routing instructions should not disappear on the return trip.

If you are delivering fuel to Singers, they should not whine about you taking a few drams to avoid having to monitor the TF again. Set it to Full Refuel and weigh anchor!


Using -dd_sw. I think it is because I force a a non standard resolution in windowed mode. Not a biggy.


I picked Palembang/Singers because it is a short route and easy to check BBfanboy, but I wanted to exercise greater control over refueling of CS convoys on longer routes for a variety of reasons.

I never was satisfied with my master task force settings on CS convoys, for example here is a picture of a slew of CS convoys all set to minimal refueling and making the run from Fusan to Honshu. As Alfred points out, they ignore the minimal refuel and fill up at Fusan (home port) - which I don't want them to do.

I kind of wanted to accomplish something that now seems impossible, by setting the master task force to do not refuel, give them a way point at say Shimoneski with a minimal refuel, and then have them unload at Fukuoka. Of course I am extending their round trip from 6 hexes to 8 hexes, which is less than optimal, but a small price to pay in game terms from a working magic highway. But better yet, on longer CS routes I might add a close by port to act as a refueling station and only add a small fraction of distance to the route, keep the convoy minimally refueled and not drain home port.

Well, now, I guess I will get to experience Allied fuel levels now in my fresh pbem. That will be unique for me.[:)]





[image]local://upfiles/44178/A50152063B39404393C1239F6503D762.jpg[/image]



PaxMondo -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 1:16:55 PM)

I use wp's all the time for CS with great success. Don't overlook the little box titled something like "use same path on return".

I can get my convoys to do everything I can imagine, follow the exact route I want, re-fuel exactly where I want, load and unload what I want for both trips, etc.

One of the later updates allowed for missions speed instead of just cruise which cut a lot of losses.



Lowpe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 1:21:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I use wp's all the time for CS with great success. Don't overlook the little box titled something like "use same path on return".

I can get my convoys to do everything I can imagine, follow the exact route I want, re-fuel exactly where I want, load and unload what I want for both trips, etc.

One of the later updates allowed for missions speed instead of just cruise which cut a lot of losses.


How can you avoid re-fueling at home port? I can't for the life of me figure it out.[&:]

I have no problems with waypoints & return trip routing & speed, except for when waypoints coincide with the destination hex.



RangerJoe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 4:18:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I use wp's all the time for CS with great success. Don't overlook the little box titled something like "use same path on return".

I can get my convoys to do everything I can imagine, follow the exact route I want, re-fuel exactly where I want, load and unload what I want for both trips, etc.

One of the later updates allowed for missions speed instead of just cruise which cut a lot of losses.


How can you avoid re-fueling at home port? I can't for the life of me figure it out.[&:]

I have no problems with waypoints & return trip routing & speed, except for when waypoints coincide with the destination hex.


Have no fuel at the home port.

That is unlikely to happen. The waypoints that I suggested would be for the longer routes where you want the convoys to get to protected ports along the way and be under ASW air. If ship is damaged and not split off, then it can be removed and receive some repairs at that port.



PaxMondo -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 6:56:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I use wp's all the time for CS with great success. Don't overlook the little box titled something like "use same path on return".

I can get my convoys to do everything I can imagine, follow the exact route I want, re-fuel exactly where I want, load and unload what I want for both trips, etc.

One of the later updates allowed for missions speed instead of just cruise which cut a lot of losses.


How can you avoid re-fueling at home port? I can't for the life of me figure it out.[&:]

I have no problems with waypoints & return trip routing & speed, except for when waypoints coincide with the destination hex.

Choose the end where you want the re-fueling to ocurr to be the homeport (if it is one of the ends). in your case, it would mean flip the convoy to home port at the other side.

EX: Palembang is the home port for the convoy, not Nagasaki.



Lowpe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 7:19:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I use wp's all the time for CS with great success. Don't overlook the little box titled something like "use same path on return".

I can get my convoys to do everything I can imagine, follow the exact route I want, re-fuel exactly where I want, load and unload what I want for both trips, etc.

One of the later updates allowed for missions speed instead of just cruise which cut a lot of losses.


How can you avoid re-fueling at home port? I can't for the life of me figure it out.[&:]

I have no problems with waypoints & return trip routing & speed, except for when waypoints coincide with the destination hex.

Choose the end where you want the re-fueling to ocurr to be the homeport (if it is one of the ends). in your case, it would mean flip the convoy to home port at the other side.

EX: Palembang is the home port for the convoy, not Nagasaki.


Ah, but you see you are still filling up the tanks at one end or the other. And if you flip them, you are must carry something both ways.

I guess I am just trying to really conserve the fuel too much.




RangerJoe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 7:23:58 PM)

You are better filling up from the source (Palembang) and not to where you are shipping it to.

Wouldn't it be better to ship to Singapore and then have a larger and better protected convoy moving the fuel from Singapore?



PaxMondo -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 7:27:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I use wp's all the time for CS with great success. Don't overlook the little box titled something like "use same path on return".

I can get my convoys to do everything I can imagine, follow the exact route I want, re-fuel exactly where I want, load and unload what I want for both trips, etc.

One of the later updates allowed for missions speed instead of just cruise which cut a lot of losses.


How can you avoid re-fueling at home port? I can't for the life of me figure it out.[&:]

I have no problems with waypoints & return trip routing & speed, except for when waypoints coincide with the destination hex.

Choose the end where you want the re-fueling to ocurr to be the homeport (if it is one of the ends). in your case, it would mean flip the convoy to home port at the other side.

EX: Palembang is the home port for the convoy, not Nagasaki.


Ah, but you see you are still filling up the tanks at one end or the other. And if you flip them, you are must carry something both ways.

I guess I am just trying to really conserve the fuel too much.



I guess I am missing something here. Gimme an example of what you want to do ...



Lowpe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 7:36:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

You are better filling up from the source (Palembang) and not to where you are shipping it to.

Wouldn't it be better to ship to Singapore and then have a larger and better protected convoy moving the fuel from Singapore?


I generally don't run largish merchant convoys, not even tanker ones.

I just don't want to fully fill up, though. An Aden carries 1000 fuel, a Lima 1500. They are may CS workhorses. But on most CS routes they could get by with a 25% fuel load.

I guess it is a moot point, since most of those CS convoys get shut down by the end game, and their fuel can be made available to other ships via refueling.




Lowpe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 7:45:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I use wp's all the time for CS with great success. Don't overlook the little box titled something like "use same path on return".

I can get my convoys to do everything I can imagine, follow the exact route I want, re-fuel exactly where I want, load and unload what I want for both trips, etc.

One of the later updates allowed for missions speed instead of just cruise which cut a lot of losses.


How can you avoid re-fueling at home port? I can't for the life of me figure it out.[&:]

I have no problems with waypoints & return trip routing & speed, except for when waypoints coincide with the destination hex.

Choose the end where you want the re-fueling to ocurr to be the homeport (if it is one of the ends). in your case, it would mean flip the convoy to home port at the other side.

EX: Palembang is the home port for the convoy, not Nagasaki.


Ah, but you see you are still filling up the tanks at one end or the other. And if you flip them, you are must carry something both ways.

I guess I am just trying to really conserve the fuel too much.



I guess I am missing something here. Gimme an example of what you want to do ...



Well, I primarily use Adens and Lima to run CS for resources. There is close to 200 of them give or take, and I tend to use lots draining Hokkaido and Sakhalin of resources in single ship convoys. A steady stream. I would love to give them say 200 fuel instead of 1,000 or 1,500 taken with the fuel taken from Hokkaido and Sakhalin. The goal always is to have enough resources on Honshu to shut down resource convoys entirely in the late game.

Sakhalin I let run dry of fuel, but I need to check the ships every now and then when they run dry. Perhaps I can automate this too, with a small tanker delivery on CS? Not sure that the fuel would be distributed equally though.

Hokkaido has HI and must have fuel stocks.

And then it would be nice if the most at risk merchant ships, the tankers, were carrying only tactical fuel loads too and their escorts.



RangerJoe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 8:04:50 PM)

With larger convoys from ports such as Singapore, you should need fewer escorts so you have more ASW TFs. I like to use the small SCs in the ASW TFs in shallow water only. Have them along the route with only the one hex to patrol, with air search and ASW. If the enemy subs show up, they are usually attacked since the ASw TF is already there. The Formosa straight is an excellent place for those. Between Singapore and SE Indochina as well.

If you manually run the convoys you can also have the convoys follow a good ASW TF. I don't but I haven't gotten that far as Japanese to when the American Mark 14 improves.



Lowpe -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/12/2020 8:22:29 PM)

We are getting pretty far off topic.[;)]

I wanted to understand the refueling mechanics of CS convoys and waypoints. Thanks to Alfred, and a little testing I do so now.




PaxMondo -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/13/2020 3:01:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I use wp's all the time for CS with great success. Don't overlook the little box titled something like "use same path on return".

I can get my convoys to do everything I can imagine, follow the exact route I want, re-fuel exactly where I want, load and unload what I want for both trips, etc.

One of the later updates allowed for missions speed instead of just cruise which cut a lot of losses.


How can you avoid re-fueling at home port? I can't for the life of me figure it out.[&:]

I have no problems with waypoints & return trip routing & speed, except for when waypoints coincide with the destination hex.

Choose the end where you want the re-fueling to ocurr to be the homeport (if it is one of the ends). in your case, it would mean flip the convoy to home port at the other side.

EX: Palembang is the home port for the convoy, not Nagasaki.


Ah, but you see you are still filling up the tanks at one end or the other. And if you flip them, you are must carry something both ways.

I guess I am just trying to really conserve the fuel too much.



I guess I am missing something here. Gimme an example of what you want to do ...



Well, I primarily use Adens and Lima to run CS for resources. There is close to 200 of them give or take, and I tend to use lots draining Hokkaido and Sakhalin of resources in single ship convoys. A steady stream. I would love to give them say 200 fuel instead of 1,000 or 1,500 taken with the fuel taken from Hokkaido and Sakhalin. The goal always is to have enough resources on Honshu to shut down resource convoys entirely in the late game.

Sakhalin I let run dry of fuel, but I need to check the ships every now and then when they run dry. Perhaps I can automate this too, with a small tanker delivery on CS? Not sure that the fuel would be distributed equally though.

Hokkaido has HI and must have fuel stocks.

And then it would be nice if the most at risk merchant ships, the tankers, were carrying only tactical fuel loads too and their escorts.

ok, so still not clear ... [&:]
Between Alfred and me, we are saying the same thing and it works.

CS TF's refuel at the home port. So, you always want the home port to be the location that you want to suck fuel from, like Palembang or Sakhalin. Then choose "Do not refuel" and it won't refuel at the destination.

Now the tricky ones are where you do not want fuel to be taken at either end. Then, I use waypoints. I cannot eliminate all fuel loss at the home port, but if I fully refuel at the closest location to the home port, I can minimize the fuel loss at the home port.



Alfred -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/13/2020 4:25:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Alfred showing off his Latin skills.....[:'(]


Latin is a very precise language. Superb at conveying concepts succinctly and accurately. This characteristic is why it is still prominent in legal affairs.

Now classical Greek, such an effeminate language by comparison, perfect for the wishy washy nature of philosophical discussion aided by a bottle of wine.

Solely based on the two languages, even Marvin the Martian would be able to pick who was capable of building such good infrastructure as the roads, aqueducts and plumbing.

Alfred



stuman -> RE: Refuel options with CS Task Forces and Waypoints (7/14/2020 9:42:01 PM)

And this thread is one of the many, many great examples of why I have been lurking here for a dozen plus years.



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