Early game military info/advice? (Full Version)

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Kostura -> Early game military info/advice? (7/13/2020 12:29:51 AM)

Hello, I started playing Shadow Empire a couple days ago and I'm still trying to overcome the learning curve and figure out the basics. One of my main problems is figuring out how to optimize my military, and deal with the Free Folk Marauder rifleman stacks that spawn near my capital.
They tank my capital's happiness just by being in close proximity. They take over my hexes whenever I try to leave the immediate area, and when I try to eradicate them it takes forever. They entrench themselves in rough terrain, fall back, and it's nearly impossible to wipe them out for good. How do I do it? What should I be looking for in my army composition? Should I be stacking all of my militia into one big blob and throwing it at them?
I've been thinking of focusing on artillery in order to become more powerful in ranged attacks, so I can inflict mass casualties without exposing myself to risk. Is this a good strategy? And how do I produce artillery? In one of my past saves I discovered the model type, and designed an artillery model, but I don't remember seeing it listed in the new formations menu.
Thanks in advance for any information or advice you guys can offer.



Twotribes -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/13/2020 1:21:05 AM)

I don't start with just militia, if that's what you did you need a model design Committee. That's what researches your regular army types. First you need to discover them then research them. On the skill of your Model design committee director you want Intelligence and specifically Technician skills. The higher the intel the faster the skill goes up with discovery and research feeding your leader experience. You also need a Staff Council to research and discovery your army formations. That leader needs war skill and high command.



Jdane -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/13/2020 1:32:11 AM)

I went for artillery at first too, but it's not really an early game solution, not until you can unlock the so-called OOBs to mix some artillery pieces into your infantry formations. Independent artillery battalions are quite expensive in metal early game.

I would suggest to think in terms of establishing a perimeter. Your militia does not really have the firepower to attack marauders at first, but it can screen and if needed hold a line.

An independent recon battalion is good to deal damage to marauders in open terrain. Admittedly less good in rough terrain, but if you can leave some open hexes for the marauders to venture in, you can then punish them with a buggy rush.

This way, you can keep the marauders at a distance, and punish them if they come too close. But if you want to destroy them, you have to encircle them, then attack them. To that end, you can use militia battalions to hold a line, use the motorized ones to reach the back of the enemy, and depending on terrain, deliver the killing blow with a regular unit of buggies or infantry.

Alternatively, MG battalions are good for holding strong points. They only cost 500 recruits to build, and will shred the marauders if they dare to attack.

And don't forget you don't necessarily need to set up the economic council first, nor the military research one. Even with the basic techs, if you set up the model design council, you can upgrade your riflemen - and maybe MGs too, I'm not certain though, and give your buggies better armor. Going from the default 5 mm to 25 mm improves their durability quite significantly. Plus, you can research artillery but more importantly light tank types from the very start, and those tanks roll over marauders, or minor regimes' militias.

Don't forget either that you can call the governor to increase the number of recruits you get each turn, should you need more manpower. It only costs 2 PPs.

TLDR : complete encirclement is the way to destroy them. If you can't encircle, push them back with buggies or light infantry depending on terrain. Block their advance with militia or MG battalions. Consider the model design council early if you're under pressure (remember you can call your secretary anytime to set up a new council, you just need some PPs to create it).

P.S. : I had missed twotribes' message and ended up repeating the point about the model design council. The staff council is good too, but less necessary early game, since you can create independent units without needing it, and even attach two of those to an OHQ should you have raised a proper formation in order to benefit from its bonuses.



Kostura -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/13/2020 2:08:39 AM)

Thanks for your responses. I'll try doing what Jdane recommended, setting up a perimeter while I develop my capital and researching light tanks. Speaking of development, what do I need for military infrastructure? How do I ensure that my troops get the supplies they need?



Jdane -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/13/2020 2:54:21 AM)

What were your starting conditions? It can depend a lot.

In a militia only, base tech and one city start, a classic move is to nationalize the private transport company, that will ensure you have enough trucks to supply your troops near the capital.

But before that, you might really want to nationalize first the scavenging operation, then sell the rare metals to get the cash you need for the other nationalization, because cash can be hard to come by at first. Plus it will get you some fuel and metal for your vehicles.

Then, just stay close to the roads. If you really need to, build some roads to follow your troops and extend the optimal supply range a little, use the Op Logistics filter for that. Basically, if you don't have enough supplies to send (food, fuel, or ammo) buy or make some, and if you don't have the logistics to send them out, bring back your troops in the green a little while you upgrade your truck station.

In my experience, marauders tend to back off when there is strong opposition in the way, and to wait for when there's less people around to come back. Not like those mutants who happily go forward once you've triggered their agro, but they are quite easy to push back.

By the way, buggies are pretty good early light tanks once you've upgraded their armor. Marauders don't have very good protection, and the buggies' MGs are quite effective against them. It can help a lot while you're researching proper tanks.



demiare -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/13/2020 10:36:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jdane
An independent recon battalion is good to deal damage to marauders in open terrain.


Will not work at all on hard+, especially against raiders/slaver. Only encirclement will help until you will get real army.

I find motorized artillery regiments supporting basic MG foot regiments in defensive are great early game solution to repel raiders. But take in mind - I'm using cheats to reduce manpower cost of trucks to 1/5 of current. 10 drivers to move 10 soldiers it's a crazy (and repair&so on is taken in account by logistics).

Also be warned - basic MG battalions are weak on Hard+ against raiders/slavers too. They will need either upgrade or be placed in defensive terrain to hold their position reliably.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jdane
And don't forget you don't necessarily need to set up the economic council first, nor the military research one. Even with the basic techs, if you set up the model design council, you can upgrade your riflemen - and maybe MGs too


Yes, it's best possible move in harder starts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jdane
and give your buggies better armor. Going from the default 5 mm to 25 mm improves their durability quite significantly. Plus, you can research artillery but more importantly light tank types from the very start, and those tanks roll over marauders, or minor regimes' militias.


But don't overgoing on armor if you're playing on large planets. Now I'm quite fond of 25mm tanks with 40mm gun and 25mm/50mm APC as they allow to save a lot of fuel. And most important - a lot of logistic points, even if you don't have issues with a fuel.

And don't overestimate buggies on Hard+ against raiders/slavers too (8:1 in my favor but "defender hold"? easily and constant!) [:D] But even then they work nicely if mixed with bikes - bikes alone are too fragile, but have a high attack.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jdane
TLDR : complete encirclement is the way to destroy them. If you can't encircle, push them back with buggies or light infantry depending on terrain.


Yean and take a look WHERE they could escape. Isn't fun to push them into mountains or ruins :)



Jdane -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/13/2020 11:07:42 AM)

Good points. I should have prefaced my advice with saying I've been playing in regular difficulty.

Out of curiosity, why do you motorize artillery? Is it to able able to move it one hex to reach a target without losing as much readiness than if it went by foot?



demiare -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/13/2020 12:10:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jdane

Out of curiosity, why do you motorize artillery? Is it to able able to move it one hex to reach a target without losing as much readiness than if it went by foot?


This and because of strategic mobility. I'm playing on largest planets + experimenting with logistic system so strategic move isn't very reliable thing [:D]. 1 motorized artillery could support 2-3 "garrisons" so it help to cover ~20-30 hexs. Usually it's enough to protect my border from Independent forces in area where I'm not willing to pursuit further anymore (no cool hex perks & no cities nearby to conquer).

Ofk such setup is not for a kill but to repel, but again large planet issues - logistics is really killing you. Plus repel isn't bad thing too as provide a lot of experience for artillery design. So in that case artillery rush to invading independents and block them together with MG foot battalion (artillery have strong soft defense too), then bombard them until they will ran away.

I tried to use buggies for this role but they aren't going to work on Hard+ "out of box" and I don't want invest a lot of design points & resources into them. Infantry&bikes able to do this job but suffer notable losses and I'm trying to save as much manpower as I can (you can call it roleplaying). APC+infantry is a perfect solution but SO expensive.



seiSetill -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/13/2020 1:14:41 PM)

Hi Kostura, I play on extreme/all default start, so I feel your militia-only pain.

I think arty cost too much iron very early game. I skip them until I have iron to spare, which depends heavily on if I found mines early. Generally I only build arty to take down cities because they help destroying unit readiness.

You won't be able to kill marauders until you can surround, so focus on establishing borders. Just push your militia up to the hex, and stand between them and your city. They will either attack you, which you'll defend fine, or they will retreat.

Here's what works for me:

Get Fist 40 asap. It increases the chance to spawn additional militia, which you need.

Get a military research council first. Prioritize 100% discovery until padded envirosuit and automatic rifle are discovered. Once both are discovered, switch to 100% research and get both techs.

The turn before both techs are done, get a model council. Put it to 100% design. Design your current infantry model with the two new techs.

Get an infantry regiment asap, even a 50% formation raise is fine. MG mix or infantry only, it doesn't really matter this early. I like the MG mix due to the laser MG down the road. Spread out this infantry regiment to begin surrounding and finishing off the marauders.

You can go anywhere from here. I like a second mg/inf regiment, and 1-2 recon buggies. With the early military tech upgrades we got, winning early fights will be much easier.

Let me know if that works for you. Good luck!



demiare -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/13/2020 1:45:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seiSetill

Prioritize 100% discovery until combat armor and automatic rifle are discovered.


Are you mean Padded Envirosuit tech? Actual "Combat Armor" tech is next tier of technology, you can't discover it without researching 3 basic ones or starting at Tech4.

If so - good advises then. I'm using +/- same logic even on Hard and it's working fine. Metal costs for arty are indeed high, but seems I'm always lucky with mines / ruins around so don't run into that issue yet :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seiSetill

I like the MG mix due to the laser MG down the road.


Funny. I saw even GR tactical nuclear launcher and jetpacks but never found any GR MGs yet. Random, hehe.



ramnblam -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/13/2020 1:58:02 PM)

Early game use militia and MG battalions for scouting and manning your borders. Use OHQ infantry brigades complemented with attached buggies to encircle and destroy enemy units. After playing for a while you start to have a 6th sense of where your most likely to get rear ended :D



seiSetill -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/13/2020 2:02:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

quote:

ORIGINAL: seiSetill

Prioritize 100% discovery until combat armor and automatic rifle are discovered.


Are you mean Padded Envirosuit tech? Actual "Combat Armor" tech is next tier of technology, you can't discover it without researching 3 basic ones or starting at Tech4.

If so - good advises then. I'm using +/- same logic even on Hard and it's working fine. Metal costs for arty are indeed high, but seems I'm always lucky with mines / ruins around so don't run into that issue yet :)


You're right! The padded environ suit is what I meant - good catch haha. Same concept, definitely try it out. Gives such a big military boost and can really help take/defend minor regimes quickly.

The AI was WAY ahead of me in military tech in my games, and I prioritize it, so I can't imagine how rough it is for those that don't focus on it. [X(]



Kostura -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/14/2020 5:24:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jdane

I went for artillery at first too, but it's not really an early game solution, not until you can unlock the so-called OOBs to mix some artillery pieces into your infantry formations. Independent artillery battalions are quite expensive in metal early game.



I meant to ask this earlier, how do you unlock and use the OOBs?



Jdane -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/14/2020 5:55:02 PM)

I'll quote Twotribes from earlier:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

You also need a Staff Council to research and discovery your army formations. That leader needs war skill and high command.



demiare -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/14/2020 5:57:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kostura

I meant to ask this earlier, how do you unlock and use the OOBs?



This is main job for a "Staff council". They will discover available OOB (= designed all models they're using, for example for Light Armour brigade you need to have a Light tank model) and you will pick from them ones to research. Absolutely same as Economic council, but for OOB and OHQ stratagems instead of Economic techs and stratagems.



actrade -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/16/2020 12:58:19 PM)

I am unclear about one of your points. Regarding discovering combat armor and automatic rifle, automatic rifle is in the basic tech group while combat armor is underneath that in engineering. If I understand progression from basic to engineering, you have to have researched 3 in Basic Tech before it will open up Engineering, correct? If that's the case, how can you stay in 100% discovery as won't that slow down fully researching 3 techs in Basic that will allow you do try and discover combat armor under Engineering?



seiSetill -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/16/2020 2:03:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: actrade

I am unclear about one of your points. Regarding discovering combat armor and automatic rifle, automatic rifle is in the basic tech group while combat armor is underneath that in engineering. If I understand progression from basic to engineering, you have to have researched 3 in Basic Tech before it will open up Engineering, correct? If that's the case, how can you stay in 100% discovery as won't that slow down fully researching 3 techs in Basic that will allow you do try and discover combat armor under Engineering?


You're correct, I made a mistake there. I meant Padded Envirosuit instead of Combat Armor :) I updated the post to reflect the correct tech.

Though I do also try to rush Combat Armor as well, but only after I get Automatic Rifle + Padded Environsuit.

Then,because research is at 100%, but there is nothing to research, the BP will dump to Discovery, which will quickly get High Velocity Guns and then immediately research it.

Once that's one, I'll switch to 100% discovery until I get Combat Armor + 1 other infantry tech (high speed MG or Radiation Filters), and then switch back to 100% research until both are completed. Then design a new model with the updated techs.

Side Skirts is good to get.

Then I'll go full linear research until I get Personal Armor Optimization to at least 40.

After that, you can go anywhere. I dislike rocketry, rpg, and guided rpg. I just haven't been able to use it well yet. Maybe in my next game.

Tier 3: Heavy Combat Armor, Advance Sensors, Cluster Bombs, Polymer Armor

Tier 4: Laser Rifles, Laser Guns, Battle Dress

Tier 5: Heavy Battledress

Tier 6: Light Plasma Rifles, Plasma Guns




actrade -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/16/2020 2:13:20 PM)

thanks for clarification, I thought I was doing something wrong lol. Oh and another thing, how can you tell when the tech will be done? you say to get your model council going the turn before? how can you tell?



seiSetill -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/16/2020 2:41:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: actrade

thanks for clarification, I thought I was doing something wrong lol. Oh and another thing, how can you tell when the tech will be done? you say to get your model council going the turn before? how can you tell?


If you go to Reports -> Organisations -> then click on an org overview. YUou will see how much progress that org has made on their assigned task last turn. You can figure out how many more turns will be needed to complete the task the org is working on.

In this Model example, I can see that my council researched 69% of task in 1 turn. I can assume that next turn, the tank will be finished.

This principal applies to military research. And that's how you can figure out the timing :)

[image]local://upfiles/72221/1B065A9583D14A46989B6D789F76FFC3.jpg[/image]



actrade -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/16/2020 2:49:29 PM)

Ok thanks again!



Kostura -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/18/2020 9:26:28 PM)

I've gotten down the basics of model design and how to field regular, non-militia troops. Right now I'm being attacked by a minor power called the "Agala Territory" and they're mutants. They have no artillery, vehicles or even MGs, just hordes of mutant militia infantry. I must have killed at least 10,000 of them so far and they're still coming.
I have two questions: Where are they getting all these troops from, and where's their capital? There's a normal minor power to the east of me and they have a capital. But despite having 6 spies embedded in the Agala Territory I can't see any capital settlement, just regular free folk settlements.



Il_Palazzo -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/19/2020 2:32:56 AM)

Some minor power types consist of a number of starting units only, without a capital. These include mutants, nomads, surviving AI, and arachnids (I might be missing one more?).

I've never paid close enough attention to notice whether or not they get to replenish their losses over time. But if you eliminate their units they stay dead and not respawn.

Think of them as adding a bit more variety to the roaming marauders/animals.

Mutants specifically start with hordes of mostly useless troops, so slaughtering them by the thousands is to be expected.



demiare -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/19/2020 10:42:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seiSetill

After that, you can go anywhere. I dislike rocketry, rpg, and guided rpg. I just haven't been able to use it well yet. Maybe in my next game.


Rocketry is VERY nice thing to have. Sure, 15 machinery for independent brigade is a costly one, but they able to bombard anything in 4 hexs. I love to have 1-2 them in my main strike group to soften enemy before my tanks will strike or hit enemy groups with artillery (=no return fire for rockets). Never tried missiles yet :)

RPG (or better - bazooka since it's finally available at start) is life-saver against hostile slavers in early game. They have a lot of buggies and even tanks, while you're lacking any serious firepower.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Il_Palazzo

Some minor power types consist of a number of starting units only, without a capital. These include mutants, nomads, surviving AI, and arachnids (I might be missing one more?).


Slavers too.



zgrssd -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/20/2020 12:32:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kostura

Hello, I started playing Shadow Empire a couple days ago and I'm still trying to overcome the learning curve and figure out the basics. One of my main problems is figuring out how to optimize my military, and deal with the Free Folk Marauder rifleman stacks that spawn near my capital.
They tank my capital's happiness just by being in close proximity. They take over my hexes whenever I try to leave the immediate area, and when I try to eradicate them it takes forever. They entrench themselves in rough terrain, fall back, and it's nearly impossible to wipe them out for good. How do I do it? What should I be looking for in my army composition? Should I be stacking all of my militia into one big blob and throwing it at them?
I've been thinking of focusing on artillery in order to become more powerful in ranged attacks, so I can inflict mass casualties without exposing myself to risk. Is this a good strategy? And how do I produce artillery? In one of my past saves I discovered the model type, and designed an artillery model, but I don't remember seeing it listed in the new formations menu.
Thanks in advance for any information or advice you guys can offer.

- If possible, make a peace deal that faction. Majors will respect each others borders by default. Minors will only do so after a peace deal. Beating them militarily really helps in getting them to consider a peace deal.
- Marrauders only use militia level gear. As a rule of thumb, conventional military models have 2.5 times the combat power. Always try to start with 1 starting army. Once you got a full Brigade, you can slaughter them with minimal losses
- always attack from multiple directions. It is the only counter to entrenchment you got. But only use units under the same HQ - otherwise the bonus is halved.
- try to get automatic weapon and any armor (even Environmental suits) into your units ASAP. Automatic Rifles + Combat Armor is a good goal. Personally I start with Tech Level 4, it helps a lot with that part.
- Artillery is quite ammo hungry, but also somewhat a indespensible part of the infantry force. 1 Indepedant batallion attached to each Brigade is SOP for me. Artillery never increases in damage, but does increase in number of attacks/combat round. Militia also got some artillery mixed in. You get reimbursed for any supplies the Militia uses - you just have to supply the Logistics to move the stuff to them



Kostura -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/23/2020 5:58:01 PM)

I feel stupid for asking this question but how do I separate individual units from a SHQ? I produced an independent regiment of light tanks, they took some losses in battle, then I sent the regiment back to my SHQ to reinforce. They did reinforce, but now they're stuck in the same hex as my SHQ.
When I select the SHQ unit tab nothing shows up, so it doesn't appear that my light tanks have become apart of that unit. But they are stuck in the same hex. I can't even move them a single hex over, it says they're completely out of AP, although their supply consumption is at 100. What's going on? How do I get them out of there?



Twotribes -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/23/2020 6:07:06 PM)

Got fuel? Also if they moved that turn they probably are out of ap.



Kostura -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/23/2020 6:18:40 PM)

They haven't moved that turn. Also wouldn't fuel consumption be counted as supply consumption?



Twotribes -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/23/2020 6:20:51 PM)

No idea.



Twotribes -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/23/2020 6:21:30 PM)

Ohh did you on this turn order the reinforcement?



Kostura -> RE: Early game military info/advice? (7/23/2020 6:30:32 PM)

No, it was a previous turn. I am running a fuel deficit but I bought some fuel from the market last turn, and the problem persisted. It's possible that it went to something else, other than the tanks. Assuming that fuel consumption is something apart from supply consumption, I won't be able to fully troubleshoot until I fix my ongoing fuel deficit.

EDIT: It was the fuel shortage. I sold off a lot of metal and purchased fuel with the proceeds last turn, and this turn I can move the tanks.



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