Logistical nightmare (Full Version)

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Skinner -> Logistical nightmare (7/17/2020 3:09:34 AM)

I really enjoy lots of facets of this game. However, until I can decipher the enigma of logistics, I must admit, I'm just about through with this game. In my humble opinion, logistics in this game is waaay over complicated. This post will concern only logistics. I've been playing complicated board games and computer games for over forty years. This one has me stumped. I feel like I'm just throwing stuff at the wall to what will stick to solve my logistic problems. Any help is appreciated. Unfortunately, I'm getting to the point where I don't want to put any more time, effort, experimentation, etc in to learning or understanding this game. I've spent hours watching DasTatic videos. I've spend countless more hours reading forums. I just want to *play*.

I admire the way Vic is consistently working to improve his game. But with each beta, changes are made for which there isn't any documentation or easily found explanation of the changes. And if you don't already understand a game issue, it rapidly becomes mind boggling confusing.

I've read nearly the entire manual. I understand "pull" logistics were added in a later beta. I still didn't fully understand logistics in the first place. Roads or rail. Now there is pull. Where was the explanation of how that works? I missed it completely. I've been reading the forums trying to find understanding. I've found some good stuff. I'm not sure how it all fits together. My armies are bogging down, I hate seeing red or black in bottlenecks and not easily knowing why or how to fix them. I mean, did I even have enough supplies the units were calling for? I dunno. I finally got light armor. Tried to advance, out ran supply, or oil, or I dunno. I could go on for hours.

Is there anywhere or anyway to start from scratch with a tutorial or explanation of the logistics rules? I've read some of malevolence, zgrssd and Vic's explanations but they didn't entirely enlighten me. And, those posts and explanations now seem outdated unless the whole "pull" system doesn't affect or alter the way the old logistics system worked. But then if it doesn't why was it added anyway?

How does this stuff work? And maybe later someone can tell me why it was decided to make it soooo complicated? Seriously, looking at it objectively sounds like a nightmare. Truck points, truck action points, each terrain has a cost, dirt road, paved road, rail, splits in the road, going over fields or mountains, traffic signs for road, rail, pull, truck stations, supply stations, bottlenecks, used points, points available, br, requested, received, and on and on and on....

Apologies for the rant. This game really is ambitious. And quite simply amazing. Job well done. But the logistic aspect has simply beat my ass. I used to think I was hardcore, old school, intelligent grognard.

Now I just feel like a dummy.



Twotribes -> RE: Logistical nightmare (7/17/2020 3:30:46 AM)

I still dont understand why a bottle neck can occur right outside my capitol But I just build a truck stop in between where it says it has a bottle neck and usually after upgrading it it works. The latest game I did that and it only got rid of about 75 percent of the bottle neck still had a couple hex between new truck stop and city. I built a rail line down that stretch and it is gone now.



Skinner -> RE: Logistical nightmare (7/17/2020 3:50:52 AM)

Yeah, me too. I have a bottleneck 1st hex right out side of my main city with a 1600 point truck stop. So city, black bottleneck to first hex, 2nd hex red bottleneck 2%. Beats me.



lloydster4 -> RE: Logistical nightmare (7/17/2020 4:35:30 AM)

You could write a thousand words on logistics. Building a truly efficient system is difficult and requires planning 5-10 turns in advance.

In the mean time, you can still make it work. Here's my advice on the bottleneck overlay: Ignore the colored lines. Even if you understand all the nuances of the system, they can still confuse the hell out of you.

Instead, look at the colored squares. When you see a black or red square, you need to put more Logistics Capacity into that hex. Simple as that. Got a bottleneck in your capital? You gotta upgrade the truck station. Can't upgrade the truck station any more? Build a 2nd one 1-hex outside the city. Put more logistics capacity where the black squares are.

If you want to truly understand the system, you need to use the other overlays. Initial Points, Current Points, Used Points, and Preview Points. Bottleneck overlay will obscure the underlying mechanics.



Skinner -> RE: Logistical nightmare (7/17/2020 4:22:52 PM)

Thanks.

I've definitely been trying to plan ahead and have truck stations upgraded beforehand.

I'll try your approach with looking at squares. The newly constructed 1600 point truck station completed but still had red and black squares one hex outside the city. New turn they turned to yellow squares and have stayed that way. I forgot the assets don't take effect until the following turn. However, I then built lv III truck station, 3200 points, to see if that turned the yellow to green or something. Still yellow. I've just been hitting end turn to see how these new buildings change the existing logistics map.

What do the green or red bars over the grayboxes on assets indicate? Also, on initial and current overlays there is an additional number in yellow in the hex. What does that indicate?



lloydster4 -> RE: Logistical nightmare (7/18/2020 3:09:37 AM)

After you finish construction of a logistics asset, it will provide LP 2 turns later. Not very intuitive [&:] Also, hexes will only show Green on the bottleneck view if they have 80% or more of their LP unused (Current divided by Initial).

I have no idea about green or red bars. Possibly something to do with pull logistics? I don't play with the beta patches, so I'm probably in the dark here.

I am also terribly confused by the yellow numbers. I do my best to ignore them and pretend it's just the whiskey playing with my head. If you ever figure it out, please let me know.



Skinner -> RE: Logistical nightmare (7/19/2020 3:05:28 AM)

Thanks. Will do.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one playing with a whisky induced haze...



PaxMondo -> RE: Logistical nightmare (7/19/2020 1:26:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lloydster4

You could write a thousand words on logistics. Building a truly efficient system is difficult and requires planning 5-10 turns in advance.


This seems to be the real trick here: you need to plan your logistics several turns ahead. Once you are behind, catching up is a nightmare: move back to 4 or 5 turns before you lost control and fix it then. That means you need to have a good idea of your future needs and build to support that plan in advance. Tricky, as you also need to be able to predict enough of those random incursions as well in that plan ...



Malevolence -> RE: Logistical nightmare (7/19/2020 5:08:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: lloydster4

You could write a thousand words on logistics. Building a truly efficient system is difficult and requires planning 5-10 turns in advance.


This seems to be the real trick here: you need to plan your logistics several turns ahead. Once you are behind, catching up is a nightmare: move back to 4 or 5 turns before you lost control and fix it then. That means you need to have a good idea of your future needs and build to support that plan in advance. Tricky, as you also need to be able to predict enough of those random incursions as well in that plan ...


Yes.

Also, expect issues and embrace the not perfect. There will be issues. Be resilient.

I haven't found a way to lose the game yet.



lloydster4 -> RE: Logistical nightmare (7/19/2020 5:43:53 PM)

The only time I'm having fun in this game is when I'm trying to claw my way back from a desperate situation. Fortunately I'm not a great player, so desperate situations are pretty much the norm for the first 100 turns.

I completely understand the urge to re-load old saves or (worse) give up on a game because Bad Things are occurring, but it's so much more satisfying to find a way through. The AI makes mistakes constantly.



Tomn -> RE: Logistical nightmare (7/19/2020 11:25:01 PM)

As it happens, I wrote up a thing explaining how and why logistics capacity works the way it does, which is probably not how you think it does. Bit wordy, but I tried to throw in both jokes and diagrams to liven things up. In particular it should explain to a degree why you can have a black bottleneck but have everything else on the logistical line showing spare capacity - in practice that probably comes from overlapping logistical networks, i.e. two logistical assets pushing capacity at each other but without enough AP to cover each other completely.

As for pull, here's how it basically works: It used to be that logistics worked on a "push" system where your logistical assets would produce logistics capacity and you had to use traffic signs to divert that logistical capacity where you wanted it to go - otherwise, you could have half your logistical capacity taking up roads to nowhere while your troops starved because you weren't directing the flow right. This called for a great deal of tedious micromanagement lest you run an inefficient empire. The new "pull" system basically means that your troops (and anything else that needs logistics) will automatically call for enough capacity to cover their needs, and a portion of your logistical network will automatically divert itself to flow towards them instead of you needing to manually adjust the flow. Thus, your primary strategic concern is no longer "Am I directing my logistical capacity correctly?" and is now "Do I actually have enough capacity in the system to cover my needs?"

If you're having logistical issues, the answer is probably "No" and the solution is probably "upgrade/build more logistical assets."

Edit: Been kicking around the idea of compiling a bunch of my earlier posts on the subject and creating a topic to break down how logistics actually WORKS, instead of a quick and dirty patchwork guide. We'll see.



zgrssd -> RE: Logistical nightmare (7/20/2020 12:35:07 PM)

400-400 = 0
400+200 = 600
600-400 = 200

That is all the math there is to how a bottleneck happens and how you fix it.
Note that the current beta is doing a massive improovement of the logistics with a "pull" System. Wich automatically directs traffic to where it is most usefull.



gmsitton -> RE: Logistical nightmare (7/21/2020 11:19:40 PM)

The black bottlenecks simply mean you are using 100% of the capacity for that route in the hex. Increase capacity or decrease demand, and be sure to use traffic signs to block off roads/rails that are leaching off logistics points.



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