Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (Full Version)

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apbarog -> Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/23/2020 6:16:30 PM)

In my war against OPilot, I dropped paras on Kota Bharu. The base was captured, and Tojos were destroyed. During the Air Transport phase, gunfire was heard, so there was some type of engagement. At the time, I suspected that I was losing C-47s, but there was no message at the time. Later, I saw that no C-47s were lost.

The intel screen said that 41 Tojos were destroyed in the turn: 8 in air-to-air, 2 on the ground, and 31 ops losses. The 31 ops losses were from the base capture. The 2 on the ground were from B-24s bombing and naval bombardment. But where did the 8 air-to-air come from? I had a fighter sweep that found no enemy planes. The B-24s encountered no Tojos. However, during the air transport phase, I did hear gunfire, and no C-47s were lost.

There was no mention of Tojos anywhere in the combat report.

Could it be that some fighter versus fighter air-to-air can occur during that phase, a phase that doesn't show up on the combat report? OPilot told me that his Tojos were resting, which makes it even stranger. Can't explain this one.

Any ideas?



Lowpe -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/23/2020 9:54:00 PM)

Did you have LRCAP up protecting the transports -- in that hex?






apbarog -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/23/2020 10:27:12 PM)

No LRCAP. I did have a fighter sweep that showed no enemy CAP, in the combat report. OPilot said that his Tojos were resting.



Lowpe -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/23/2020 10:31:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: apbarog

No LRCAP. I did have a fighter sweep that showed no enemy CAP, in the combat report. OPilot said that his Tojos were resting.


His entire Tojo Fleet was resting?



apbarog -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/23/2020 10:39:42 PM)

Yes, his Tojo's at Khota Baru were resting. So there shouldn't have been any kind of A2A there. But I did hear gunfire audio during the air transport phase, so something happened.



Evoken -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/23/2020 11:01:28 PM)

Did you have any fighters on escort ?
I believe escorts fly with transports during the air tranport phase. I witnessed it on Xtrg vs Thg youtube AAR match. Xtrg tried to take Port Blair with paras where Thg had some Buffalos on cap , no air to air combat happened untill transport phase but i heard some gunfire sounds and when they checked air losses there were 8 Buffalos shot down in air to air combat.



apbarog -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/23/2020 11:05:26 PM)

No, no escorts anywhere in Malaya. Just a fighter sweep. Can't explain it, particularly with the Tojo's resting.



Lowpe -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/23/2020 11:12:33 PM)

Reminds me of something Alfred once said about CAP...it's primary purpose is to protect the runways. If a task force is in the same hex, the CAP is somewhat out of position and will bleed over to protect the task force, but not with the same intensity of protecting the runways.

So my thought was that somehow CAP was bleeding over to protect the c47s.

8 is a big number...if the air activity wasn't too hectic, can you find what pilots got credited with a2a kills in the ops report? You might watch the replay again pausing and scrolling thru the teletype report.

If Opilot is running tracker he could find the squadron with the losses.



Alfred -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/24/2020 4:21:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: apbarog

Yes, his Tojo's at Khota Baru were resting. So there shouldn't have been any kind of A2A there. But I did hear gunfire audio during the air transport phase, so something happened.


Doesn't answer Lowpe's question.

Let me rephrase that question:

1. Were all Japan's Tojos located at Khota Baru?

2. With the loss of the airfield at Khota Baru, there are currently no Japanese Tojos found anywhere else in the Empire?

3. The entire fleet of Tojos, all located only at Khota Baru, was stood down with zero CAP and zero LRCAP levels set?


The new question is where there were any Japanese fighter units elsewhere but within range of Khota Baru, set a LRCAP level?


As to your initial question, although rare, yes fighters can be lost in the air transport phase.

Alfred



apbarog -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/24/2020 5:56:11 AM)

OPilot is welcome to join this conversation. He is the Japanese player. I will answer as best I can.

1. Probably no. There have been Tojos elsewhere. However, there was no combat involving Tojos anywhere on the map on that turn.

2. OPilot can answer this definitely. I believe there are Tojos elsewhere.

3. OPilot said that his Tojos at Khota Baru were resting. They did not engage my fighter sweep there that turn, nor intercept my bombers there that turn. OPilot can confirm that they were completely stood down.

I do not know if there were any Japanese fighter units elsewhere but within range of Khota Baru, with a LRCAP level. I believe the answer is no. OPilot can answer this definitively. I will be encouraging him to join this conversation.

Thank you Alfred.



BBfanboy -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/24/2020 6:12:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: apbarog

OPilot is welcome to join this conversation. He is the Japanese player. I will answer as best I can.

1. Probably no. There have been Tojos elsewhere. However, there was no combat involving Tojos anywhere on the map on that turn.

2. OPilot can answer this definitely. I believe there are Tojos elsewhere.

3. OPilot said that his Tojos at Khota Baru were resting. They did not engage my fighter sweep there that turn, nor intercept my bombers there that turn. OPilot can confirm that they were completely stood down.

I do not know if there were any Japanese fighter units elsewhere but within range of Khota Baru, with a LRCAP level. I believe the answer is no. OPilot can answer this definitively. I will be encouraging him to join this conversation.

Thank you Alfred.

A fighter unit on training might not engage during regular raids and then show up during the Air Transport phase. The losses could be FOW exaggeration.



GetAssista -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/24/2020 9:38:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
quote:

ORIGINAL: apbarog
No LRCAP. I did have a fighter sweep that showed no enemy CAP, in the combat report. OPilot said that his Tojos were resting.

His entire Tojo Fleet was resting?


I think it is more about who killed Tojos rather than where Tojos came from



Lowpe -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/24/2020 10:46:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
quote:

ORIGINAL: apbarog
No LRCAP. I did have a fighter sweep that showed no enemy CAP, in the combat report. OPilot said that his Tojos were resting.

His entire Tojo Fleet was resting?


I think it is more about who killed Tojos rather than where Tojos came from


Put on your Sherlock Holmes hat. [:)] If we knew which squadron suffered the losses, it would narrow our focus and perhaps explain the losses.



OPilot -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/24/2020 12:05:56 PM)

I am the Japanese player against apbarog so I can answer most of these questions. Only one Tojo fighter Sentai was based at Khota Baru. All other Tojo units were far out range of Khota Baru and there was no combat involving them and no other Tojo losses other than the ones at Khota Baru. The entire Sentai at Khota Baru was stood down (no CAP or LRCAP). There might have been other Sentai at nearby bases ordered up for CAP but they were not Tojos and their range would have been set to 1. They suffered no losses. The entire Sentai at Khota Baru was destroyed and so I could not use Tracker to view the history of the unit. It was strange to get reports of A2A losses of 7 or 8 Tojos when they were ordered to stand down.

Congratulations to apbarog on a very successful para-drop to capture the base and destroy an entire Sentai. The prior naval bombardment disrupted the small defense force. I believe some of the pilots escaped. It was the wrong time to stand down the entire unit but they had low moral and a number of previously damaged aircraft that needed repair.



RangerJoe -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/24/2020 12:53:38 PM)

Okay, here is a possible explanation, per my understanding.

When an airbase with air units is lost, my understanding is that some of the aircraft (with crews) may attempt to flee. If there were enemy fighters over the base, then those air craft attempting to flee might have engaged in combat. That is my understanding but I may be incorrect. I am sure that someone might understand it better.

I will so some checking on this.

Edit for:

Read the FM!

Not exact quotes.

7.2.3.1.1 Transfers From Captured Airfields
When an airfield is captured, some planes may attempt to fly to a base if it is within Normal range if their morale is good and the AF is not heavily damaged.

7.2.4.6 Incidental combat.
Planes flying to a base may be caught up in the air battle in that hex.



OPilot -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/24/2020 2:58:06 PM)

My first thought was that the Tojos were shot down while attempting to flee because they were within range of bases but apbarog did not assign any fighters to LRCAP over Khota Baru. The airfield was badly damaged and maybe they couldn't avoid bomb craters on the runway but I would think that would be operational losses instead of A2A.



RangerJoe -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/24/2020 3:40:12 PM)

Yes, then those would be ops losses.

If there was no other combat in the area, he could check the units in the area for the number of kills, then load the previous turn and then see the number of kills. Then see the orders. At least, that could lead to where the losses actually occurred.



geofflambert -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/24/2020 3:41:54 PM)

You are putting far too much weight on reports about the enemy's casualties. They can be mere pipe dreams delivered by pixies. Don't waste your time trying to figure them out.



RangerJoe -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/24/2020 3:44:41 PM)

The enemy reported them as actual losses.



OPilot -> RE: Can fighters be lost during the Air Transport phase? (7/24/2020 4:32:32 PM)

Both Allied and Japanese reports showed the same losses including the A2A combat losses that are puzzling.



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