About Bulgaria (Full Version)

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MVP7 -> About Bulgaria (7/27/2020 6:28:36 PM)

When Bulgaria joined the Central Powers it was made a minor under Germany rather than Austria-Hungary. I didn't really mind but it seems a bit odd and it does provide Bulgaria access to German technology and National Morale which in my case made the Bulgarians the best shock force in Serbian and later Southern Russian fronts. I guess it also meant any Bulgarian MPP was directed to Germany rather than Austria-Hungary?

So I was wondering if there's some historical reason for this geographically odd relation. Would it be more sensible for the Hungarians to use the Austria-Hungary's tech levels rather than the Germans?



Torplexed -> RE: About Bulgaria (7/27/2020 7:02:37 PM)

Under one of the protocols of the 1915 Treaty for Friendship and Alliance between Bulgaria and Germany, the Germans pledged to assist with whatever war materiel that Bulgaria needed, unless it harmed Germany's own needs. Germany also put in the lion's share of lobbying to engineer the treaty. The treaty also specified the territorial acquisitions that Germany guaranteed to Bulgaria from parts of Serbia. In addition, the German General Staff did most of the field research and planning for Bulgaria's part in the final defeat and conquest of Serbia.

I guess being the heavyweight of the Central Powers, Germany calls all the shots.



BillRunacre -> RE: About Bulgaria (7/27/2020 7:16:26 PM)

Hi

Bulgaria's MPPs do go to Germany.

From my reading, German influence in Bulgaria appears to have been stronger than Austro-Hungarian, and both countries did sign a formal political treaty in September 1915 whereas with Austria-Hungary there was a military agreement, to which the Germans were also a signatory. As ultimately one Major has to be picked, the German connection was more compelling.



MVP7 -> RE: About Bulgaria (7/27/2020 7:51:20 PM)

Thanks to both of you. If Germany agreed to provide material and did a lot of planning for the Bulgaria then it definitely makes more sense for them to be a German minor even if it didn't also make sense from purely political/legal point of view.

I certainly didn't mind the elite Bulgarian corps spearheading the Austro-Hungarian war effort but it seemed too good to be true [:)].



Torplexed -> RE: About Bulgaria (7/27/2020 8:05:49 PM)

From geographical point of view Germany certainly had her urgent reasons for wanting Bulgaria firmly under her thumb, for which she was willing to pay a high price. Notably the need to safeguard her rail links to Turkey which ran through Bulgarian territory.

Of course, the Allies for their part tried to keep Bulgaria out with flattery and bribes, but the one thing Bulgaria wanted most was chunks of Serbia, which obviously they could never consent to.




FOARP -> RE: About Bulgaria (8/1/2020 5:11:15 PM)

I think this highlights why it would be good for the major-minor relations mechanic to be dynamic. To late to implement this in SC3 probably but it would be great if the player could (within reason) decide which country minors went to.



Xsillione -> RE: About Bulgaria (8/1/2020 6:42:46 PM)

In a future version it would be better if the minors would be a separate with its own tech and economy, that can be boosted by the majors to some degree, to avoid the aforementioned elite shock troop effect, that clearly and issue with Bulgarians (and Belgium or Netherlands) and many other in the WWII variant.



1775Cerberus -> RE: About Bulgaria (8/2/2020 7:23:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Xsillione

In a future version it would be better if the minors would be a separate with its own tech and economy, that can be boosted by the majors to some degree, to avoid the aforementioned elite shock troop effect, that clearly and issue with Bulgarians (and Belgium or Netherlands) and many other in the WWII variant.


Or perhaps an answer would be to only allow the minor to upgrade to one level below the Allied Major. IE: If Germany is Weapon 2, Infantry 3, Fighter 4, Artillery 2, and Shell 3. Bulgaria would only be able to go to W:1, I:2, F:3, A:1, S:2. That should help reflect the military mission sharing information and training, but still reflect that a "minor" nation not having the traditions, base training, and industrial base to build the military to a match of the "major" partner.



Hartmann -> RE: About Bulgaria (8/4/2020 6:46:36 PM)

That "shock troop effect" is in place in WiE too - it's strange how you can easily get the best tech for Bulgarian, Rumanian and Hungarian units while Italy is permanently struggling to keep afloat.

I think in future versions all countries should actually be treated like majors, i.e. getting their own income, tech tree etc. Like Xsillione said, their research could/would be boosted by the majors they are aligned to and there could be economical aid ("land convoys")between all of them.



FOARP -> RE: About Bulgaria (8/4/2020 8:57:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartmann

That "shock troop effect" is in place in WiE too - it's strange how you can easily get the best tech for Bulgarian, Rumanian and Hungarian units while Italy is permanently struggling to keep afloat.

I think in future versions all countries should actually be treated like majors, i.e. getting their own income, tech tree etc. Like Xsillione said, their research could/would be boosted by the majors they are aligned to and there could be economical aid ("land convoys")between all of them.


Sounds like a bit too much micro-management TBH, at least if research isn’t streamlined somewhat. However I don’t really see an alternative.



The Land -> RE: About Bulgaria (8/5/2020 7:51:08 AM)

The basic problem is that the game treats every 'minor' the same, when 'minor's range from Canada in WW2 to Greece in WW1. Canada in WW2 was industrialised, mobilised, politically committed to the war, and fielded large ground and sea forces that were fully integrated into the 'major' in terms of equipment, doctrine and command. Indeed at times Canadians were regarded as an elite. Greece in WW1 was on the perpetual edge of bankruptcy and revolution, was a military liability and an economic disaster area (Britain spent half the war blockading southern Greece, starving the population, to try to prop up the King).

Currently there are very blunt tools to do this. Basically the force cap and the HQ quality are what there is to work with, and also the fact that minors don't benefit from Production Tech discounts. So you end up with situations like Bulgaria being shock troops or Romania adding half the MPP of the Russian Empire.

However there are other solutions than making every minor do its own research. I would suggest:
* Minors get an MPP modifier which can be set where required so you can prevent Romania in WW1 being the economic powerhouse of Russia, or Greece contributing a big convoy to Britain (note that majors already have MPP modifiers, Russia is set to 30% or something)
* Minors get a Readiness modifier which can be set per country to reflect differences in motivation, command, and training from their major. Bulgaria might get a -10% in both WW1 and WW2, for instance, to reflect the fact its troops will never be as good as Germans. Canada would have a 0 modifier, while Greece in WW1 might have -20%.
* It becomes possible to configure a tech limit on each Minor. So Bulgaria might for instance only have access to Infantry Weapons level 1 and Infantry Warfare level 2. (However this would have to be used cautiously, there's no reason why most majors couldn't have equipped minors as well as they wished, if they had unlimited resources - a Readiness penalty would already have a big impact).





The Land -> RE: About Bulgaria (8/5/2020 10:22:30 AM)

Of course if anyone wanted to mod this, it'd be relatively easy to create periodic, silent, morale-sapping events for e.g. Bulgaria to keep their Readiness down!



BillRunacre -> RE: About Bulgaria (8/5/2020 10:51:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land
Currently there are very blunt tools to do this. Basically the force cap and the HQ quality are what there is to work with, and also the fact that minors don't benefit from Production Tech discounts. So you end up with situations like Bulgaria being shock troops or Romania adding half the MPP of the Russian Empire.


Just to add that upgrading some Minors' units is already more expensive than upgrading those belonging to Major powers, or other Minors like Canada.

For example, upgrading a Bulgarian or Greek unit costs 25% more than upgrading a British or Canadian unit, so financially there is an incentive to concentrate on upgrading units belonging to Majors, especially when you take into account that more often than not they also benefit from better HQs.



The Land -> RE: About Bulgaria (8/5/2020 5:36:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre


quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land
Currently there are very blunt tools to do this. Basically the force cap and the HQ quality are what there is to work with, and also the fact that minors don't benefit from Production Tech discounts. So you end up with situations like Bulgaria being shock troops or Romania adding half the MPP of the Russian Empire.


Just to add that upgrading some Minors' units is already more expensive than upgrading those belonging to Major powers, or other Minors like Canada.

For example, upgrading a Bulgarian or Greek unit costs 25% more than upgrading a British or Canadian unit, so financially there is an incentive to concentrate on upgrading units belonging to Majors, especially when you take into account that more often than not they also benefit from better HQs.


I wasn't aware of that - makes a lot of sense.

I would still suggest an industry modifier and a readiness modifier, though.



Xsillione -> RE: About Bulgaria (8/5/2020 5:53:38 PM)

Also was not aware of the extra cost for some minors unit upgrade, but this extra cost is barely important, since the free bulgarian units are plenty, and upgrading them to top lvl is so minor compared to building a new german unit that it is obviously the better choice, not to mention that it uses its own, existing hq, so we get even more from them (and the german teched art is just free extra art for germany, since it is hard capped by the number of units, not the mpp cost, just as the huge bulgarian airforce (3 fighters for them!))

And for the greek units, they pop into existence where they are needed, not on the other side of the map.



MVP7 -> RE: About Bulgaria (8/6/2020 1:37:00 PM)

Minor's don't really have the resources or real need for independent research and limiting their tech relative to their host major's wouldn't work in some cases either.

Maybe minor units under major's HQ command could get a reduced effect from the said HQ's rating? This would allow finer control of the minor units' power ceiling. Minor's could also have a nation specific NM modifier so that for example Bulgarian unit's NM for morale calculation purposes would be German NM minus 25% for example. With these two variables the combat performance of minor's could be anything from special shock troops to poorly motivated rear guards.



Xsillione -> RE: About Bulgaria (8/6/2020 9:17:55 PM)

Here is the problem for minor and major research and their needs:

Italy in the WWII and Serbia in the WWI must research stuff separately, but Spain and Bulgaria not, they have similar sized forces and similar sized economy (not exactly, but close), yet they can skip the 1K+ mpp of research (and the 1-2 year waiting time), just by being a minor, yes, they eat the helping majors NM, so there is some cost, and still not 100% as effective, just almost, but the Bulgarian troops are so much better than even the fully teched AH troops, that is not funny.

Obviously the minor would have a smaller research price, and some form of boost to catch up to the major they linked, but this would make their units build slower from the smaller economy, no more UK spend the entire UK budget on greek units, producing more greek unit in 3 month, than they managed to do in the entire war.



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