Applied Science Crazy Cost of 1% progress (Full Version)

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Artapshen -> Applied Science Crazy Cost of 1% progress (7/30/2020 5:12:49 PM)

When i start research technology of Applied Science i see Cost of 1% progress = 10 Buerocratic Points. I investing 208 BP per turn and they give me penalty (-54). OK, i can understand that.
Plus Research Bonus 84, + Relation Bonus 50%, + Scince Skill 84% = 44% Progress per turn.

But next turn Cost of 1% dramatically rises to 31. And gives only 19%

Next turn Cost of 1% progress becomes even more = 73. Plus only 13%

After 4 turns Cost of 1% progress = 173 BP, that gives a little 3% progress per turn

Next turn Cost of 1% progress becomes insane = 226 BP (!)
Why its happening to me?

Impossible to research any Applied Science tech. Its extremly slow!


[image]local://upfiles/73189/282E3DB0711F4CA0AD2A7B4042B30A7C.jpg[/image]



Artapshen -> RE: Applied Science Crazy Cost of 1% progress (7/30/2020 5:16:52 PM)

4 turn of Sanitation tech gives +3% progress
with 226 BP for 1%
Totally Crazy. Even with all bonuses i cant normally progress

[image]local://upfiles/73189/892A12761DB64C3C81E8F0CDF1468B1F.jpg[/image]



Erzac -> RE: Applied Science Crazy Cost of 1% progress (7/30/2020 5:26:45 PM)

Applied science ("linear") techs are not meant to be researched to 100%. They have a rapidly escalating research cost, and give an incremental bonus the further you research them. But you will never really "finish" them as you do most other ("binary") techs.

E: There are also few techs in other research fields that work in a similar manner.



Twotribes -> RE: Applied Science Crazy Cost of 1% progress (7/30/2020 5:54:44 PM)

Also with those types the higher you go on completion the MORE each percent costs.



demiare -> RE: Applied Science Crazy Cost of 1% progress (7/30/2020 5:56:42 PM)

And even their description in tech tree clearly state that you're unlikely to ever reach 100% with them...



lloydster4 -> RE: Applied Science Crazy Cost of 1% progress (7/30/2020 7:06:59 PM)

Erzac nailed it. Also, you might want to adjust budget priorities since no new discoveries are possible.



Leslac -> RE: Applied Science Crazy Cost of 1% progress (7/30/2020 9:00:55 PM)

Really the choice of words "linear" and "binary" is completely confusing to any non-math professor. Educated as a humanist, I've no idea what these words mean, but I know that the "binary" ones work as expected, while the "linear" ones take forever (as the tooltip kindly warned me they would). And here I thought that something "linear" means "straightforward", apparently it's the opposite in math, but there you go...

Simply put - it has to be possible for any game to explain something to the player in one word or thereabouts - how something works. "Simple" and "complicated" techs f.ex. There you go - simple techs fast - complicated techs slow. My ordinary non-math educated derp brain understands...

Don't force your players to use wikipedia to understand something in order to understand your game. (OR INCLUDE A TOOLTIP THAT EXPLAINS WHAT YOU MEAN when you're using a complicated word!)

Also I love this game, so please excuse my annoyance.

Also I don't want you to explain it to me. I know google.

Yes, I'm implying we're all professors at something.



demiare -> RE: Applied Science Crazy Cost of 1% progress (7/30/2020 9:10:47 PM)

Sigh.

Game manual have 300+ pages describing purely game mechanics. This game isn't simple.

But even then - game HAVE a tooltip about linear techs. Management -> Tech Tree. Hover mouse over any unlocked linear tech:

[image]local://upfiles/72462/0DCD49E3D2EB4C6798AF38DD4474FB69.jpg[/image]



jobu13 -> RE: Applied Science Crazy Cost of 1% progress (7/30/2020 9:25:14 PM)

These techs aren't any more complicated than the binary techs. It's also not really accurate to call them "slow". The point is that they give you an incremental bonus for each % improvement. You're not necessarily intended to ever "fully" research them.

With binary techs you either have them or you don't (on/off). With linear techs, you continuously improve the more time you spend working on them. So with Power Plant (for example), being at 99% gives you no advantage over being at 0%, whereas with Mining Techniques, being at 20% gives you twice as much of a bonus to mining activities as being at 10%.



lloydster4 -> RE: Applied Science Crazy Cost of 1% progress (7/30/2020 9:26:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leslac
Also I don't want you to explain it to me.


I'm going to anyway.

Binary = yes or no
Either you have the full benefit of the tech or you don't

Linear = benefit increases linearly relative to research progress
At 25% progress you get 25% of the benefit, 50% at 50%, 75% at 75%

Neither of these terms describe the costs. They describe the benefits.



Leslac -> RE: Applied Science Crazy Cost of 1% progress (7/30/2020 9:47:30 PM)

As I said, I can read, I can google, I understand that these things are math concepts. But that don't make them appropriate concepts to use in a game. Is that hard to understand for you sighing linearities?



lloydster4 -> RE: Applied Science Crazy Cost of 1% progress (7/30/2020 10:04:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leslac
sighing linearities


That hurts a bit, but I've been called worse things by better people. If you're only interested in airing your complaints without rebuttal, then might I suggest you take up journaling? Or, better yet, you could post some potential alternatives in the Suggestion forum.



Leslac -> RE: Applied Science Crazy Cost of 1% progress (7/30/2020 10:18:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

Sigh.

Game manual have 300+ pages describing purely game mechanics. This game isn't simple.

But even then - game HAVE a tooltip about linear techs. Management -> Tech Tree. Hover mouse over any unlocked linear tech:

[image]local://upfiles/72462/0DCD49E3D2EB4C6798AF38DD4474FB69.jpg[/image]




Let's ignore your foolish condescending tone for a second and focus on the important thing in the tooltip. IT TELLS YOU NOTHING!

Using the word "linear" means nothing to just about most people. And when the tooltip states that you should remember the "linear" tech is "linear and effects gradual" what the hell are you supposed to take away from that!?
Well, "it's linear and gradual".

"Sigh."


Also, I take back what I said about not wanting people to explain it to me. jobu13 did it in his very first post on this forum. No google necessary for me now. Thank you!

"The point is that they give you an incremental bonus for each % improvement. You're not necessarily intended to ever "fully" research them."


That's beautifully put man. Vic should put that in the tooltip. That **** makes sense!


Also I googled binary vs linear and all it wants me to read about is why either binary or linear search is best.


Let D be the subcode of C spanned (as a vector space) by all words of C having even weight. Let w∈C

be an odd weight word.

One can begin by showing that, given two words w1
and w2∈C, the word w1+w2 has even weight iff the weights of w1 and w2

are of the same evenness.

The claim follows from a couple of remarks. First, each word in the subcode D
has even weight and the coset w+D consists of odd weight words only. Second, C is the disjoint union D∪(w+D). As the sets D and w+D have the same cardinality, D contains exactly half of all words of C, i.e. 2k−1 ones. Thus, the subcode D has codimension 1

.

Also, as D
can be described as the kerner of the (augmentation) homomorphism
ϕ:C→F2,(x1,…,xn)↦ϕx1+…+xn,
the claim can be proven (by means of linear algebra) using the isomorphism between C/kerϕ and imϕ. Notice that in this context D and w+D are the two classes in the quotient vector space C/D.

Sigh.



demiare -> RE: Applied Science Crazy Cost of 1% progress (7/31/2020 4:26:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leslac
IT TELLS YOU NOTHING!


So phrase from tooltip "Arriving at level 100 will be extremely difficult" not giving you even a slightest hint? [8|]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leslac
Also I googled binary vs linear

Very poor choice of search phrase, anything like "X vs Y" will drown you in a fake expert articles or holywars. You should google "binary" and "linear" separately. Why?

Because "binary" term also comes from programming. In that case it mean "either 0 or 1". If you know that everything else is obvious.



NoodlePickle -> RE: Applied Science Crazy Cost of 1% progress (7/31/2020 6:57:29 AM)

How did I miss this!
I couldn’t figure out why that skill was taking so long...In between the wars and the politics I got too caught up in tanks and assassinations to see that.
Thanks for the post and the explanations.



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