Shadow Priests: good or bad? (Full Version)

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MtnPatriot -> Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/1/2020 3:12:19 AM)

The card says avoid retreats. Ok, if it avoids unnecessary retreats, due to low morale, that MAY be good. If it avoids retreats due to overwhelming odds or lack of ammo, that sounds bad. I'm not sure how to treat these cards. They're free, so I'm tempted to spam them on units, but very wary, because tactical retreats are sometimes necessary. How does it actually work, and are they worth it, or are they more trouble than they're worth?



demiare -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/1/2020 7:09:47 AM)

Shadow cult is INSANELY bad itself as it's unique repeatable event cause you to lose population... So never even bothered to check their priests [:D]



ramnblam -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/1/2020 10:32:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

Shadow cult is INSANELY bad itself as it's unique repeatable event cause you to lose population... So never even bothered to check their priests [:D]



Which cults do you like demi? :P



demiare -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/1/2020 11:01:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam
Which cults do you like demi? :P


Absolutely off-topic question. But hell, SE forums aren't lively, so why not? [:D]

Depend on government ethic :P My strict "no-no" in latest games are:
0) Shadow Cult. Population is so precious and if I will refuse them on their event I lose relationship with cult - so why bother to keep them at all? So they're either instantly get banished if I'm playing with autocracy/fist myself or silently decline themselves if I'm using opposite ethics (well - if I would tried to use opposite ethics [:D]).
1) Eternity Movement. Pure personal issue - after their re-work as I really hate sudden delays in construction. Especially when it's a really important building (supply during major offensive) or something like rail station / demetallizer that already too slow to build.
2) Anima Circle. Again personal issue. All my games start with at least 2 crisis of egoism, usually there will be three of them. Every. Damned. Game. >_< So those guys with their huge minus to relationship will be executed on sight regardless of my ethics.

Everyone else is great.



Soar_Slitherine -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/1/2020 2:20:09 PM)

I am curious about what counts as a "retreat" for unit feat purposes as well. Take the Firing Squad unit feat from Autocracy: If it only executes units that are panic-retreating, then it's double-edged but potentially useful. If it also executes troops that are retreating because of losses exceeding what's allowable by their posture or because they suffered a Retreat Hit from enemy fire (the most common hit result), then that's awful and will multiply your losses in a lot of winning battles. Conversely, for feats that prevent retreats, also preventing Retreat Hits seems like it would contribute way more to staying power than just preventing panic retreats.



zgrssd -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/3/2020 8:19:47 AM)

The game has a number of retreat checks, per 5.10.15.1.
- Panic Retreat
- Orderly Retreat is based entirely on percentage values
- Retreat Hit result

Note that units without a avenue of escape can not Orderly Retreat (check is skipped) and have their morale doubeled for Panic Retreat checks.

The Retreat hit, only affects this specific subunit. It and Kill results are the driving factor for the other 2 forms of retreats.
Orderly Retreat is the Batallion commander deciding to retreat. "Cut your losses." You can see the threshold on the unit somewhere.
Panic Retreat is subunits breaking, due to too heavy losses. Generally orderly retreat should happen way before then. If one subunit panic retreats, others should not be far behind.

Both Orderly and Panic Retreat are unambigious loss conditions.
I asume the shadow priest only prevents the Retreat Hit Result. Similar to how Medic Teams can convert a "kill" result into a "retreat" result.



Sieppo -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/3/2020 8:46:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

The game has a number of retreat checks, per 5.10.15.1.
- Panic Retreat
- Orderly Retreat is based entirely on percentage values
- Retreat Hit result

Note that units without a avenue of escape can not Orderly Retreat (check is skipped) and have their morale doubeled for Panic Retreat checks.

The Retreat hit, only affects this specific subunit. It and Kill results are the driving factor for the other 2 forms of retreats.
Orderly Retreat is the Batallion commander deciding to retreat. "Cut your losses." You can see the threshold on the unit somewhere.
Panic Retreat is subunits breaking, due to too heavy losses. Generally orderly retreat should happen way before then. If one subunit panic retreats, others should not be far behind.

Both Orderly and Panic Retreat are unambigious loss conditions.
I asume the shadow priest only prevents the Retreat Hit Result. Similar to how Medic Teams can convert a "kill" result into a "retreat" result.


Very good to know! I have used them only a couple of times at places where retreat is not an option but seems much more useful and benign than I though.



demiare -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/5/2020 1:04:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine

I am curious about what counts as a "retreat" for unit feat purposes as well. Take the Firing Squad unit feat from Autocracy: If it only executes units that are panic-retreating, then it's double-edged but potentially useful. If it also executes troops that are retreating because of losses exceeding what's allowable by their posture or because they suffered a Retreat Hit from enemy fire (the most common hit result), then that's awful and will multiply your losses in a lot of winning battles. Conversely, for feats that prevent retreats, also preventing Retreat Hits seems like it would contribute way more to staying power than just preventing panic retreats.


I had very bad news for you. Firing Squads are killing your sub-unit who received a "forced retreat" from enemy attack.

This is a HUGE and unavoidable trap resulting in huge causalities from nowhere in almost any battle. Jesus Christ, it's fourth element of propaganda and/or Vic's own political biases forced on us. >_< Seems I need to prepare a negative review for Steam release. Sad.

In same time as I'm 99% sure that Shadow Cult Priests using same trigger as Firing Squads - they should be awesome. But I'm almost sure that they're avoiding retreat with some chance :)



boomboomf22 -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/5/2020 1:43:53 AM)

What do you mean fourth element of propaganda? As I understand it the firing squad is modeled after NKVD Blocking detachments from ww2 who had the job (and often carried it out) of shooting any retreating troops from the unit that they were positioned behind.

It is in keeping with the concept that the more aggressive paths portrayed in the game (Autocracy and Fist profiles) have some really good bonuses, but have some downsides farther up their tree to represent the downsides of their extremism (ie Fist gets freaking suicide bombers). Perhaps Autocracy should be dubbed Authoritariansim instead, but in the context of a non feudal society the differences are splitting hairs



demiare -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/5/2020 2:17:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: boomboomf22
What do you mean fourth element of propaganda? As I understand it the firing squad is modeled after NKVD Blocking detachments from ww2 who had the job (and often carried it out) of shooting any retreating troops from the unit that they were positioned behind.


Easy:
1) Autocracy is only (!) ethic lacking of any passive bonuses.
2) Autocracy extra feature ("Politburo") is only extra feature with negative effects.
3) "Decade of Corruption" epoch state that only high Democracy will help to diminish the effect. Do I need to remind latest scandals about corruption in democratic countries? Guess not. [:D]
And throwing RL aside again - is that fair? Do you see epoch weakened by high Autocracy / Meritocracy?
4) THIS.

Well, "firing squads" were used not only by soviets but also by nazis and allies too. But their role was much less cinematic - they stopped retreating soldiers and tried to form them back in semi-kind of units capable to be used again. Yes, sometimes commanding officers were executed, but hell - shoot everyone retreating? It's too stupid and will not work in real life.

And let's discuss back Shadow Empire. How about your tanks were "executed" by Firing Squad Unit Feat? And this is happening easily. Try to imagine economic losses (all metal, IP, REM...). And I even not dare to speak about losing precious veteran soldiers.

Do it's looking sane for "firing squads" to demolish tanks after they'd executed their crew? [X(]



demiare -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/5/2020 2:27:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: boomboomf22
It is in keeping with the concept that the more aggressive paths portrayed in the game (Autocracy and Fist profiles) have some really good bonuses, but have some downsides farther up their tree to represent the downsides of their extremism (ie Fist gets freaking suicide bombers). Perhaps Autocracy should be dubbed Authoritariansim instead, but in the context of a non feudal society the differences are splitting hairs


Well. First, technically Suicidal Bombers are purely positive trait. In fact - NO OTHER trait is killing your own tanks, APC, walkers and so on.
Second, Autocracy providing no bonuses (and very minor stratagems, aside from faction anti-unrest one). Yes, you will almost always get autocratic option to do with unrest & strikes - but it's costly option too:
1) You need to hold garrison and for large cities a single battalion is not enough for such events.
2) You will suffer some causalities and lose some population.

And no, I would prefer equal approach without any biases in game mechanics, like done in Stellaris. Want to be religious fanatic? Okay. Want to be pacifist? Okay. Want to be a Zerg? Okay! Everything will provide you with some kind of bonus. So you have a freedom to roleplay anything you want and not penalized by game simply for picking "wrong" option on start.

Especially in SE setting. We are already in post-apocalyptic society, lol.



Sieppo -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/5/2020 6:18:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare


quote:

ORIGINAL: boomboomf22
What do you mean fourth element of propaganda? As I understand it the firing squad is modeled after NKVD Blocking detachments from ww2 who had the job (and often carried it out) of shooting any retreating troops from the unit that they were positioned behind.


Easy:
1) Autocracy is only (!) ethic lacking of any passive bonuses.
2) Autocracy extra feature ("Politburo") is only extra feature with negative effects.
3) "Decade of Corruption" epoch state that only high Democracy will help to diminish the effect. Do I need to remind latest scandals about corruption in democratic countries? Guess not. [:D]
And throwing RL aside again - is that fair? Do you see epoch weakened by high Autocracy / Meritocracy?
4) THIS.

Well, "firing squads" were used not only by soviets but also by nazis and allies too. But their role was much less cinematic - they stopped retreating soldiers and tried to form them back in semi-kind of units capable to be used again. Yes, sometimes commanding officers were executed, but hell - shoot everyone retreating? It's too stupid and will not work in real life.

And let's discuss back Shadow Empire. How about your tanks were "executed" by Firing Squad Unit Feat? And this is happening easily. Try to imagine economic losses (all metal, IP, REM...). And I even not dare to speak about losing precious veteran soldiers.

Do it's looking sane for "firing squads" to demolish tanks after they'd executed their crew? [X(]


I'm in the impression there were actual machine guns pointed at the advancing troops from behind and anyone retreating or fleeing would be shot. How else could you implement this? Once word would get out that no one actually is shot, the effect is gone.



demiare -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/5/2020 11:09:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo
I'm in the impression there were actual machine guns pointed at the advancing troops from behind and anyone retreating or fleeing would be shot. How else could you implement this? Once word would get out that no one actually is shot, the effect is gone.


Facepalm, yean this what I mean by "cinematic". Just google history of "decimation". Roman invention - EVEN for roman idea to execute every retreating soldier was too stupid and mad. Execute a few, picked by either random or unknown to privates reason. Killing everyone is a level of comics arch-villain with unlimited henchmen.



zgrssd -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/5/2020 6:18:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

3) "Decade of Corruption" epoch state that only high Democracy will help to diminish the effect. Do I need to remind latest scandals about corruption in democratic countries? Guess not. [:D]
And throwing RL aside again - is that fair? Do you see epoch weakened by high Autocracy / Meritocracy?


Do you think there happens less corruption if there is no free press to report about it?

Autocracy weakens the Age of Rebellion.
And it can pick the fear choice in any Events - wich is a giant bonus in itself.



demiare -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/5/2020 6:43:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Do you think there happens less corruption if there is no free press to report about it?

Free press is something like a unicorn. Cool concept, but nothing in real life. I don't want to go into details to avoid politics holywar but IMHO last decade have more then enough scandals showing that press in USA&EU is anything but free.


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Autocracy weakens the Age of Rebellion.

Really cool if so. I hope to see it one day when game will exhaust supply of Egoism. Or my karma will improve [:D]


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
And it can pick the fear choice in any Events - wich is a giant bonus in itself.

Except you may miss most of those events depending on your playstyle. To make it a real bonus you should build your game around it - go on conquest spree and crush any opposition! And here is a main problem - Autocracy is not tied to permanent war & conquest. It isn't "Fist", nothing is stopping you from playing a diplomatic game and taking "Mind" ethic.
While in same time negatives you're receiving a permanent and not depending on your playstyle. Your WILL have troubles with leaders relationships, you WILL lack any kind of buffs, you WILL suffer stupid unavoidable losses of very expensive units like tanks.
And actually with Firing Squad current mechanic - it's better to play diplomatic Autocracy. Ironic, huh? In that case Fear is very minor bonus.



zgrssd -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/5/2020 8:38:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Do you think there happens less corruption if there is no free press to report about it?

Free press is something like a unicorn. Cool concept, but nothing in real life. I don't want to go into details to avoid politics holywar but IMHO last decade have more then enough scandals showing that press in USA&EU is anything but free.


A Scandal is the very example of the free press working.

1. **** happens in opressive states
2. Nobody reports about it
3. The leaders try even bigger ****
4. Go back to 2


quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
And it can pick the fear choice in any Events - wich is a giant bonus in itself.

Except you may miss most of those events depending on your playstyle. To make it a real bonus you should build your game around it - go on conquest spree and crush any opposition! And here is a main problem -


How in all skies over all worlds did you miss having Unrest when conquering the world?

Or do you mean that the fear route is so effective, you only need to pick it once or twice? Wich would mean you are making my point for me!



demiare -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/5/2020 8:56:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
How in all skies over all worlds did you miss having Unrest when conquering the world?


Unification...



zgrssd -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/5/2020 11:24:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
How in all skies over all worlds did you miss having Unrest when conquering the world?


Unification...

So you went out of your way for a Diplomatic Playstyle (starting with having a Foreign Affair Council), and then complain that the agressive/conquest playstyle of Autocraty does not support it?

"If I go out of my way to play counter to the Profiles theme, it does not support my play. So the Profile must be weak/faulty"
Do I have to explain how stupid a expression that is?
Or do you get that on your own now?



demiare -> RE: Shadow Priests: good or bad? (8/5/2020 11:47:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
"If I go out of my way to play counter to the Profiles theme, it does not support my play. So the Profile must be weak/faulty"
Do I have to explain how stupid a expression that is?
Or do you get that on your own now?


Open "Management" - "Profile Info" and point me - WHY you decided that Autocracy theme is war?

Does it have +% causalities tolerance or combat bonuses like "Fist"? No.
Does it have +% logistic and recruiting bonuses like "Enforcement"? No.
Does it penalize you in combat? Hell, yes! Firing Squads >_<.

Do you realize that events balance (not ideal too) is unrelated to profile balance issues?

You're judging using post-game knowledge about events. Player is lacking such knowledge and gameplay shouldn't be based on it.

This is exactly what I'm calling building your game around your experience - you're abusing knowledge that don't available to player at start.

And now tell me - why democracy have similar option to avoid any negatives for most of unrest events by throwing money into rebels AND in same time have a passive bonuses AND lacking penalties?
Okay, let's check third option - Meritocracy. Passive bonuses? Check! No combat penalties? Check! Option to deal with unrest? Ooops - not included.
Among three possible choices one is triple positive, one is double positive and one is single positive (and only if we count ability to deal unrest as bonus). This what I'm calling @#$% propaganda.

And to make it even more clear and obvious - in both other ethic picks ALL three options are positive ones.

P.S. And fear not universal solution. It's helping only if you're lucky enough to not roll danger events (especially completely broken like marauders).



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