loading barges (revisited again!) (Full Version)

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Major_Johnson -> loading barges (revisited again!) (8/4/2003 9:35:13 PM)

I guess this is the dead horse that just won't go away. The topic of loading multiple units onto barges, specifically during a battle and not in the deployment phase. I've searched through the forum for info and the only thing I can really find is that (during a game) barges can only load one unit at a time, that they have to be "sucked in" in David Heath's words. This really appears to be a bit unfair considering they can handle a point load of approx 250. Of course I happen it be in the thick of a battle where all my reinforcements are on the other side of a river and the only way to ferry them across is by barge. And one unit at a time really isn't cutting it, considering that my opponent is sitting there waiting for me.

This problem seemed to rear itself when they changed the loading requirements or units being in an adjacent hex to the same hex. And that's fine for trucks and such. And I guess I can see the logic in designing it that way for land based transport. But if you have your units on a dock or a beach, right next to the barge, land craft etc, then it would kind of make sense that it should be able to work. Now I guess there may be a coding issue within the game for this. But I was wondering if version 8 was going to address this issue?

I guess my questions are for the programers. Is it possible to make the game have it both ways?? Meaning leaving the ground transport as it is with the same hex, and adjusting the water based transport to work from an adjacent hex. Or another thought I had, and this could be a big nightmare for coding, but how about having a special key sequence that would load all units in an adjacent hex, providing they didn't go over the carrying limit for the transporting unit?

Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks!



Procrustes -> (8/5/2003 4:10:20 AM)

I don't have any insights, but my guess that this is one problem that isn't going to go away. I've been wending my way back through the Watchtower MC. Yesterday I played the "Ambush" scenario - where you run up the beach, capture some objectives, and then try to escape in some Higgins boats before the Nips can react. Only thing is that you can't load everyone - so I loaded one of my highest value units in each of the boats and then left my platoon of marines on the beach fighting a desperate last stand. Got a DV and an award for valor, but it sure did suck to see those experienced squads being cut down.

(Made me think I could have gamed the scenario - left my platoon of marines fighting in the village where they'd have some cover and hopefully would make it to the end of the scenario so they would magically reappear in the next one.)



Karnaaj -> (8/5/2003 9:31:02 AM)

Dunno about any other thread concerning this, but I was asking about this in the Tech section a while back regarding the St. Nazaire raid scenario (and to a lesser extent the Godzilla Island one). GI was merely "it'd be nice if...", as it would be a little helpful to ferry some of those troops over to where you wanna fight later, but the raid one is nasty - not only is it slow to load-one-unit, ferry-to-exit-hex, go-back-for-another, repeat, but depending on where your troops are and how hard the Germans are pressing, you might lose some boats. (Still better than the *real* raid, but.. )

The way to do it, I suspect, would be to add shallow water (wadable) hexes, and allow the boat passage thru those. Stack your troops, tell 'em "load" and select the boat - just like land vehicles. H'wever, I suspect that to do that would mean hacking OOBs or doing some *real* creative edits to the boat unit.

Another really neat (but of extremely limited use) thing would be to allow aircraft landing/takeoff, especially takeoff. (Last flight out, with room for twenty men, and 60-80 watching the Enemy horde rolling up on 'em...) Even more limited would be the ol' "airfield raid" - can the pilot(s) make it to the bird(s) and take off before the LRDG/partisans/holdouts/cannibals stop 'em? (If they make it, you have [escaping a/c x 2] strafing runs available beginning the turn after their takeoff.)

Ah well. So I like the odd ideas, so what?



Sturmpionier -> shallow water (8/9/2003 2:52:05 AM)

I don't think the shallow water hex idea works for barges. I tried playing around with the notion a few months back and two scenarios resulted:

1) Units stuck on the shore being picked up by barges in the water 1 at a time. (Just as you would expect)

-or-

2) Units wading out into shallow water hexes and stacking up, but still only being able to load 1 at a time bec. the barge won't enter the shallow water hex.



Hmmm, a thought has just struck me, which is strange since I am at work. Perhaps if I give the barge some land mvmt points it will crawl onto land to pick up more than one unit. I will give this a try and report back here for the debrief. But not soon, tonight tonight is my five-year anniversary so I will out til Mon.



Major_Johnson -> (8/9/2003 2:54:58 AM)

Come on now, what's more important?? Your anniversary or SPWAW?? :D



Karnaaj -> (8/9/2003 12:58:01 PM)

Hmmm. Sounds logical. (Land movement points, not blowing off SPWAW experimentation for an *anniversary*. ) You beach the boat to pick up troops... that'd appear to be the opposite of the *animation* for offloading, where said boat appears to have entered the (turf) hex to dump the troops/vehicles. (This becomes more obvious if opfire occurs during unloading - and in fact, the boat *does* enter that hex; I've just been doing some beach-assault quick battles, and the transports are taking hits *in that hex* when I frag their cargo as it hits the beach.)

I'll end by noting that unless you have a *big* gun, you might as well let 'em hit the beach and then splash-damage 'em. Even big bunker-guns don't seem to kill the transports reliably, and (testing an evil idea) when I brought in a couple *destroyers*, they couldn't hit jack - when they did, not much effect. *sigh* (USMC or Japanese heavy pillboxes, redoubts, strongpoints and such vs. Japanese or German transports and barges; the Japanese amphibious AFVs were fairly easy to kill - multiple 37mm would do it, and 75mm on up tended to do it in one shot. Multiple 4.2 in, 81mm, and 4.5 in rockets would sink Japanese transports, but it took a helluva lot of shots, and more hits that I'd want to use; save that stuff for the beach.)

O'course, this is all probably an artifact of SPWAW being a *land*-warfare game, not "Boat Wars". I just wanted to see how effective a destroyer would be in screwing up an invasion fleet... not very. *sigh* The invasion-fleet destroyers would likely charge in *fast* anyway, whilst cruisers and above would play "shooting gallery" from a distance.

Still, even with the limited # of shots for the destroyers, if they decide to hang off the beach and shoot up the invaders, said invaders will bleed lots... splash damage off those main guns is pretty nasty. And I didn't try setting 'em to computer-controlled, so they *might* be able to function as artillery... computer-controlled (which means send in cheap units to find the enemy and then die in the barrage ), but still...



88mmshock -> loading barges (8/10/2003 11:57:04 PM)

ok , I'm obviously new at loading barges. I can't get them to load, even one at a time. How do I do it? It keeps telling me the tank or unit is too far away. Thx



chief -> (8/11/2003 12:16:13 AM)

mfr:
Watch the type of terrain where your loading from. ie: if your on a cliff/hill/bluff and barge is next to it (cliff/hill....) it won't load, in some scenarios, look for a beach or slight slope nearby.

Also I have found that in some scenarios that it will not load if you just pulled up with the barge, even if you have movement left, until the next turn.

Then last, some times it will take a loaded truck for example, while other times it'll require you unload and move indivdually (2 trips).

Strange I know but I just check it off to "Fog of War".

Good Luck.

ps: Make sure the item your trying to load is not "imobilized" by being stuck in mud or marsh along the creek/river edge or even swamped. All of the above



Major_Johnson -> (8/11/2003 12:48:54 AM)

mfr, to load barges from the adjacent hex, they have to be (in David Heath's words) "sucked in. Select the desired barge, click "L" for load, then click on the unit to be loaded. It will then load. Unless the the unit us routed (which would tell you) it should load.



88mmshock -> (8/11/2003 1:28:14 AM)

Thanks to those who replied. I was trying to load like a truck. But with a barge you must first click the barge and then press L. Now it works:D



Major_Johnson -> (8/11/2003 3:13:14 AM)

Yes, but now you'll realise the original reason why I posted this thread in the first place. Even though the barges have the ability to carry mulitple units, during an actual scenario, you will only be able to load one unit, transport it to it's destiniation, then unload, have to go back and do it all over again. And for the scenarion I'm playing right now (M4 Jess's) Stalingrad H2H, all of my reinforcements are on the other side of a river, and I only have so many barges, so only being able to transport one unit at a time gives an edge to my opponent. But I'll deal with it. :)



Sturmpionier -> Failure *%$# (8/11/2003 7:37:21 PM)

Well I tried adding land mvmt pts to some barges to get them to crawl onto land so they could get into the same hex as multiple land units. No success. They would not leave the deeper water hexes.

This leads to a couple of other possible thoughts. Neither of which I am inclined to try right now.

1) Add water mvmt pts to your land units to see if they will go "out to sea" as it were. (A massive hassle.)

2) Does anyone know if there is an amphib. assault vehicle modeled in SP that actually works (I don't mess with this stuff enough to know.) If that were the case, then there is a possibility of cutting and pasting properties to barges etc. to make them think they can go on land.


I am tapped for ideas beyond that.



Major_Johnson -> (8/11/2003 8:19:15 PM)

I have a feeling there is a technical reason why the game treats barges as it does, or else the Matrix programmers would have this corrected. You did allot more than I would have done! :) I hate messing with that stuff. But like I said, "I think", it all started when they changed it from loading from adjacent hexes to the same hex. I mean, it's a hassle, but nothing major. Most scenario's don't have barges anyway. But to answer your question, yes there are amphibous craft that also go on land. The ones I can think of off the top of my head are the "Alligators" that were used mainly in the Pacific scenario's. But I'm not sure about their carrying capacity.



odog1999 -> (8/11/2003 9:26:53 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Major_Johnson
[B]I have a feeling there is a technical reason why the game treats barges as it does, or else the Matrix programmers would have this corrected. You did allot more than I would have done! :) I hate messing with that stuff. But like I said, "I think", it all started when they changed it from loading from adjacent hexes to the same hex. I mean, it's a hassle, but nothing major. Most scenario's don't have barges anyway. But to answer your question, yes there are amphibous craft that also go on land. The ones I can think of off the top of my head are the "Alligators" that were used mainly in the Pacific scenario's. But I'm not sure about their carrying capacity. [/B][/QUOTE]

Don't forget about the DUKW ;)

On a somewhat related note- how do you get transports onto a hex with other units without using up almost all of their movement points for that turn?



Major_Johnson -> (8/11/2003 10:02:18 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by odog1999
[B]Don't forget about the DUKW ;)

On a somewhat related note- how do you get transports onto a hex with other units without using up almost all of their movement points for that turn? [/B][/QUOTE]

Ah ha! Yes I did forget the DUKW! Unfortunately for me in my current battle, the Soviets didn't have DUKW's. At least not at Stalingrad. As for your movement question, well there's the trick. It's factored into the game that certain movements depending on terrain can cost anywhere from 2-5 movement points, maybe more! And if you have less movement points left than is required to move into a particular occupied hex, then you just have to wait until the next turn. That's just the way it is. :)



Sturmpionier -> Keep on succin'... (8/12/2003 2:58:23 AM)

...'til you do succeed!

I have solved the puzzle. Big thanx to Major_Johnson and Odog for your help on this. Since I don't use 'em, I didn't know if they would work as true amphib units, but the DUKW etc. do in fact crawl onto land. The reason is their class. I changed the Brit barges in the scen below from "Landing Barge" #41, to "Hvy Amphib" #34 in the OOB editor. I arbitrarily set their land speed to 20. I think other experts should play with this attribute to get it a little better, but the principle is still sound.

So, to get to logistical nirvana, just fire up your oob editor and make the above changes. HOWEVER, don't hold me responsible if you screw up your oob files. Always back them up before monkeying with them, unless you're me and you live by the seat of your pants. Also, I didn't "fire test" these units. There is no way to know how they react when hit. They migth burn right there. There are lots of other potential glitches, but just be forewarned.

Try the below scen to see what happens. For some reason, (I blame a poor public education) I set the barges up for player two, so set p1 to computer.



odog1999 -> (8/12/2003 3:27:41 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Major_Johnson
[B]Ah ha! Yes I did forget the DUKW! Unfortunately for me in my current battle, the Soviets didn't have DUKW's. At least not at Stalingrad. As for your movement question, well there's the trick. It's factored into the game that certain movements depending on terrain can cost anywhere from 2-5 movement points, maybe more! And if you have less movement points left than is required to move into a particular occupied hex, then you just have to wait until the next turn. That's just the way it is. :) [/B][/QUOTE]

What I'm saying is if I have a HT on a road hex, and some Inf. on another road hex 4 hexes away, how do I move the HT such that I don't have to go back and forth until I can get to the Inf hex instead of selecting the infantry?



Major_Johnson -> (8/12/2003 3:54:31 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by odog1999
[B]What I'm saying is if I have a HT on a road hex, and some Inf. on another road hex 4 hexes away, how do I move the HT such that I don't have to go back and forth until I can get to the Inf hex instead of selecting the infantry? [/B][/QUOTE]

If I'm understanding you correctly, you don't quite grasp how to select the infantry or HT while they are in the same hex?? That's what I'm getting from your description. If that's the case, it is possible to click around inside the hex and select either/or unit. And then it's just a simple matter of clicking "load" or using the "L" key to bring up load/unload options. Hope this answers your question. Or when all else fails, look in the manual, or the tutorials. But I must admit, those are last resorts for me too! :)



Major_Johnson -> Re: Keep on succin'... (8/12/2003 9:09:13 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sturmpionier
[B]...'til you do succeed!

I have solved the puzzle. Big thanx to Major_Johnson and Odog for your help on this. Since I don't use 'em, I didn't know if they would work as true amphib units, but the DUKW etc. do in fact crawl onto land. The reason is their class. I changed the Brit barges in the scen below from "Landing Barge" #41, to "Hvy Amphib" #34 in the OOB editor. I arbitrarily set their land speed to 20. I think other experts should play with this attribute to get it a little better, but the principle is still sound.

So, to get to logistical nirvana, just fire up your oob editor and make the above changes. HOWEVER, don't hold me responsible if you screw up your oob files. Always back them up before monkeying with them, unless you're me and you live by the seat of your pants. Also, I didn't "fire test" these units. There is no way to know how they react when hit. They migth burn right there. There are lots of other potential glitches, but just be forewarned.


Well, I tried your suggestion with the oob editor, and it appeared to have worked to a point. I was able to move the barge onto a land hex and then load multiple units into it. Now the land hex it moved into was a loading dock and I have to admit that looked rather strange. The movement was only 1 hex, and after loading my units it wouldn't move back off into the water. The water movement is set at 6 and I used your suggested 20 for the land movement. For some reason I could only move into the land for 2 hexes. I'm thinking that there may be more oob tweaking that needs to be done. But it might be useable for now.

Now my moral delimma is I'm playing a PBEM battle with someone. I don't want to tell them about the problem with the barges, thus giving away info that would be of benefit to the other side. Also I don't want to play knowing that I edited something without the other person's knowledge. Do I play out this battle with the edited oob without mentioning it? I think not.
But I will, after the battle is done and we're talking about the specifics, see if my opponent will agree to editing the oob.

But at least what this did do is to show that there is a way to load multiple units onto barges (as it should be) during actual gameplay. Maybe someone from the Matrix team will take this into account for version 8.

But hey Sturmpionier, good job!! Thanks a bunch!

I'm actually impressed that I actually got a thread to be longer than one page!! :)



Karnaaj -> (8/17/2003 5:05:57 AM)

Hmmm. I'll have to play with this'un. Well, sometime in the future, I guess... just restarted MegaCampaign Lost Victories again, and I'm not doing *entirely* bad, so...

Another *really* minor nag I have is that if a transport (barge, LST, DUKW, LVT, whatever) is immobilised in the water, it (and it's cargo) are stuck there forever. (Land transport isn't as bad - offload and walk or transfer to a working transport.) Be kinda nice if we could just offload to another transport... or, probably easier to code, rig a tow. Just think, your only flamethrower HT, stuck in a building (albeit that's rarer now in 7.1) or a stone wall, getting dragged out/off by whatever's driving by and not immediately needed at the front.

Hey, I can come up with goofy "gee, it'd be nice if..." stuff all day, I bet. How 'bout unbuttoned vehicles taking crew casualties when hit? Artillery.. oh wait, that's AmmoSgt.'s turf, never mind. Submarines, for commando/raider ops (and mebbe Japanese evacuations or resupply?). *Changing weather*. (Why yes, I *am* evil to want a blizzard or sandstorm to crop up in the middle of a battle... or to *go away* just when everyone has gotten involved in low-vis knife-fighting. "Uhm, Karl, I see tventy T-34s. You t'ink they see us?")

I can see 'em now, the programmers and such for Combat Leader and Close Assault, making notes that say "Under *no* circumstances allow Karnaaj to playtest..."



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