Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (Full Version)

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ElvisJJonesRambo -> Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/5/2020 4:02:13 PM)

Anyone play the Naval Mod have an opinion? Well here's mine:

Should be renamed from "Naval Mod" to the "Escort Carrier Maritime Bomber game"

Favors the Japanese, thus Axis, big-time. The Allies have a hard enough time in Russia, but with the "whack-a-mole" bouncy surface ships, the Allies are hosed. It's impossible to get a battle, in the Pacific. The range & spotting of everything makes it a Maritime Bomber fight. Everything has to be "spotted" before you can even move a ship in a strategic game in this mod. Any surface 2 surface, you lose. The enemy bounces away, because gee, that's historical, and you take sick damage.

Battleships/Cruisers have become obsolete. Their offshore abilities barely dent ports as it is. These ships are only good after the other qualifications are met. Port defense stops surface ship attacks. What's so special about being a port?

British must buy Escort Carriers to actually destroy a U-boat. Problem, they have none. So there's no choice but to start buying them. Destroyers that find a U-boat, are lucky to get a "break-even" result. Yeah, in 1942 you he'll have the tech, but strength-6 + level 2 anti-Sub is lucky to get a fair fight. Must have Escort Carriers, and you're chasing 9+ U-boats. Meanwhile bye-bye Russia. Regular carriers are awful against Subs. I'd trade them in for Escort Carriers. Mod sux.

Next, the Maritime Bombers range are half the globe. German/Japs/Italy getting 3 attack each, it's a joke.

I've played the Naval Mod exactly 3 times.

My first time
My second time
My last time.

-EJR




ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 3:39:17 AM)

126 views, and it's crickets. I miss the Old Guard. I miss the Smack days. They would keep me in my place, have some fun. Have some laughs. Forum Life has become such a bore. Only a select few will send messages. No one talks. No one posts funny stuff on Forums. Get ghosted in games by the majority. When I resign, I at least send a private message of congrats, post my loss. Winners don't even respond back to me. Weird people.

Is the whole world on Prozac?

When you walk through a storm,
Hold your head up high
And don't be afraid of the dark.
At the end of the storm
Is a golden sky
And the sweet silver song of a lark.
Walk on through the wind,
Walk on through the rain
Though your dreams be tossed and blown.
Walk on, walk on,
With hope in your heart
And you'll never walk alone,
You'll never walk alone!
Walk on, walk on,
With hope in your heart
And you'll never walk alone,
You'll never walk alone!



The Land -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 11:40:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Only a select few will send messages. No one talks. No one posts funny stuff on Forums. Get ghosted in games by the majority. When I resign, I at least send a private message of congrats, post my loss.


War in Europe has an ELO tournament, which seems to encourage communication and sportsmanship - as well as encouraging people to actually play through games rather than ghosting when they get frustrated.

I wonder if World at War has enough players to sustain something similar.



Marcinos1985 -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 12:11:49 PM)

According to steamcharts, WaW is the most played SC game. Of course population is bigger, you can get this game from GOG and Matrix etc. So yes, I think tournament would be sustainable. But someone would have to start it and run it - that’s the hard part.



Markiss -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 3:16:17 PM)

I run the War in Europe tournament, it is not hard. There is already a canned sheet you can use, all you have to do is fill in the players and game results, the spreadsheet does the rest. I think I spend 10-15 minutes a week on it, a little more if I post a rankings update. And if whomever starts it gets tired of dealing with it, it is easy to pass to someone else.

The Land helped with getting the WiE sheet set up, I'm sure he would be willing to help anyone who wanted to run a WaW tournament.




The Land -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 3:27:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Markiss

The Land helped with getting the WiE sheet set up, I'm sure he would be willing to help anyone who wanted to run a WaW tournament.



Yup - I'd be happy to help, I could even manage the tournament for a bit to get it up and running - if there are enough people wanting to take part.



Marcinos1985 -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 4:26:32 PM)

quote:

if there are enough people wanting to take part.


Well, my roster is getting empty, so I would love too. But perhaps there should be a separate topic for this.



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 4:49:58 PM)

The best players in the world, that have kicked my ass: Argentum, HamburgerBun, and Sparky0565. Those 3 are at a different level than me. I get caught up playing bums, it causes my game to get lazy. Glad to see some people post something for the love of game.

I'd love to talk some smack, spice this Forum up, but I'd get banned from some dude in another country. If I even think about "Patton", it's a 2-week probation.



Platoonist -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 5:08:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo
No one posts funny stuff on Forums. Get ghosted in games by the majority. When I resign, I at least send a private message of congrats, post my loss. Winners don't even respond back to me. Weird people.

Is the whole world on Prozac?


I hear you EJR. But funny seems to be a chancy thing on the Matrix forums lately. I've noticed several instances where someone tried injecting a bit of humor and got a crabby and cantankerous response. I was accused of being in the "entitlement generation" (whatever the hell that means) a few days when I tried posting something funny. At 58 years of age I thought that was richly ironic. Maybe I should be glad someone still thinks I'm in my 20s or 30s. [:D]

Maybe its the pandemic. Maybe everyone is just getting touchy. I dunno. For now, I'm to just sticking to playing it straight.



Cpuncher -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 5:08:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

Yup - I'd be happy to help, I could even manage the tournament for a bit to get it up and running - if there are enough people wanting to take part.



Big applause if you can take the lead to run a tournament. I'd love to find out who are the best players out there in this game.

The game as it is now, there are concerns about the balance, at least between the top players. Perhaps there need to be a list of gentlemen's agreements. I can think of a few on top of my head:

1. No diplo on Majors.
2. No diplo on Bulgaria (haven't tested if Allies can keep Bulgaria out of war until Mid 1941).
3. No DOW USSR until 1941.
...

There are holes in the scripts that people can take advantage of...

Not sure when the next patch is coming out, and whether it can fix most of the issues.



Cpuncher -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 5:21:01 PM)

To the actual topic of this thread:

The "Naval Mod" made the naval part of the game worse, a lot worse...appreciate the effort, but (it really made me to appreciate how reasonably balanced the original game is, even as I complain about how unbalanced it is)...



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 5:38:35 PM)

Hey, I need to a good beatdown. I need a challenge match. Everyone has seen my games posted & record. Would call myself above average player, but certainly not a "top player". I want to improve my game. So I need to play top talent. Allied early intervention is what top players are doing. If I want to beat top player's, I have to add some cookie-cutter and quit doing crazy crap.

I'd put $50 that Argentum is the best player in the world. Argentum should battle HamburgerBun. Sparky0565 plays with a whole different mindset, I'd like to see his game against Argentum or HamburgerBun.

Far as my player profile.

Nationality: United States
Background: Part of SC-1 original Christmas Riot
Skill Level: Above average, but have not beaten top talent
Favorite Theater: Pacific, probably the reason I'm not beating top talent.
Top complaints: Too much weather on the board. German HQ's are too powerful. Patton should be beefed up.
Game play: Everyone is triple teaming Germany, not enough players do squat in Pacific. Needs something to change. Island fighting needs re-programmed. Too much rain. Come one, it's not 100% rain 60% of the time.
Favorite General: Patton
Favorite Music: Elvis, 1960s/1970s rock, classic country, anything British Invasion music
Favorite Movies: Stalag 17, Aliens, Once Upon Time in Hollywood, The Omen, Hostel, Eagle Has Landed, Few Good Men, The Rock, Cliffhanger, Rambo
Favorite Sports: Golf, UFC, Gambling, Stock Market
Favorite Games: Advanced Squad Leader, Victory Games US Civil War, Strategic Command

I've played 50+ games of SC during C19. Time to spice this puppy up. Anyone want a game? I'm ready. Pick your poison. BUT I will never play that NAVAL MOD. Mod sux.

You don't like crazy music
You don't like rocking bands
You just want to go to a movie show
And sit there holding hands
You're so square
Baby, I don't care



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 5:41:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher

To the actual topic of this thread:

The "Naval Mod" made the naval part of the game worse, a lot worse...appreciate the effort, but (it really made me to appreciate how reasonably balanced the original game is, even as I complain about how unbalanced it is)...


Thanks for the sanity check. I about busted my computer playing the Naval Mod. I get really ticked off losing. Not in my nature. I had to quit playing online poker because I busted half dozen laptops.



PJL1973 -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 6:09:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Hey, I need to a good beatdown. I need a challenge match. Everyone has seen my games posted & record. Would call myself above average player, but certainly not a "top player". I want to improve my game. So I need to play top talent. Allied early intervention is what top players are doing. If I want to beat top player's, I have to add some cookie-cutter and quit doing crazy crap.

I'd put $50 that Argentum is the best player in the world. Argentum should battle HamburgerBun. Sparky0565 plays with a whole different mindset, I'd like to see his game against Argentum or HamburgerBun.

Far as my player profile.

Nationality: United States
Background: Part of SC-1 original Christmas Riot
Skill Level: Above average, but have not beaten top talent
Favorite Theater: Pacific, probably the reason I'm not beating top talent.
Top complaints: Too much weather on the board. German HQ's are too powerful. Patton should be beefed up.
Game play: Everyone is triple teaming Germany, not enough players do squat in Pacific. Needs something to change. Island fighting needs re-programmed. Too much rain. Come one, it's not 100% rain 60% of the time.
Favorite General: Patton
Favorite Music: Elvis, 1960s/1970s rock, classic country, anything British Invasion music
Favorite Movies: Stalag 17, Aliens, Once Upon Time in Hollywood, The Omen, Hostel, Eagle Has Landed, Few Good Men, The Rock, Cliffhanger, Rambo
Favorite Sports: Golf, UFC, Gambling, Stock Market
Favorite Games: Advanced Squad Leader, Victory Games US Civil War, Strategic Command

I've played 50+ games of SC during C19. Time to spice this puppy up. Anyone want a game? I'm ready. Pick your poison. BUT I will never play that NAVAL MOD. Mod sux.

You don't like crazy music
You don't like rocking bands
You just want to go to a movie show
And sit there holding hands
You're so square
Baby, I don't care


Prefer WIE but I'm willing to do a rematch on WAW (me Allies, you Axis).



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 6:29:36 PM)

@PJL1973 --- Cannot recall, we've played before. Sure, I'll play. What's World In Europe? (haven't owned that one in awhile). Wanna say that game was SC-2 and I tossed the entire laptop away.

***correction, we have played, you were game #11 according to my gold records.



The Land -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 6:31:47 PM)

ok, have an ELO tournament!

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4868517



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 6:40:23 PM)

@PJL 1973 --- I've hosted a game for us. Password = elvis

We can make it part of the ELO tourney. Get some rankings going would be cool. Can only play few turns now. Heading to UFC party. And I don't wear masks :)



ThunderLizard11 -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 8:29:57 PM)

Agree on naval mod. In current game as Allies it's incredibly frustrating having Jap marine bombers wipe out Pacific fleet. Totally unrealistic. Maybe devs can incorporate a few ideas from the mod like ZoC for naval.

A couple specific:
* BB attacks lone Jap CV - odds 5-0 against BB?
* SS has odds of 0-5 (deal 5 damage) to CV - CV bounces away nearly every time
* Too many "damage evaded" for Axis
* Little damage done by DD against Axis SS

Overall ruins game balance.



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/8/2020 8:42:38 PM)

@LizardMan --- Got your message. Accepted the challenged. We are a close match, actually, you pounded me the last 2 games, your Axis game has gone up a notch. We can make it an Electric Light Orchestra (ELO) game for the ladder The Land (pronounced 'Zee Land or DeLand) has graciously setup.

I'm heading to my standing UFC party very shortly (no mask) so not many turns, no governor in some city gonna tell me that actually helps. Gotta get my bets in, handicap the matchups.

In our game, I'm gonna say

-120
over/under September 1945
Fair fight



Most popular & coolest warrior since Joshua at the Battle of Jericho
[image]local://upfiles/62194/3163CC8FF98644F4880880B2E4BCE952.jpg[/image]



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/9/2020 3:10:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

ok, have an ELO tournament!

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4868517


@DeLand --- Hey brother, thanks for stepping up! That's cool of you to host a tournament and/or ongoing Ladder. My regular sparring partner and I have begun a game. The LizardMan (in this thread) has taken Axis, we are going ELO. He's beaten me two in row as Axis, I've gotten soft & too cute with Carriers. Will need to man-up, may have to cookie cutter him.

May the Lord of Hosts bless you, as your hosting has blessed this thread.

Sincerely,
Sergeant Elvis Jones Rambo



The Land -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/9/2020 3:45:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo


https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4868517


@DeLand --- Hey brother, thanks for stepping up! That's cool of you to host a tournament and/or ongoing Ladder. My regular sparring partner and I have begun a game. The LizardMan (in this thread) has taken Axis, we are going ELO.


Great! Please can you post the details in the tournament thread - that way everything's in the same place for reference :)



LordOfPants -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/9/2020 4:55:01 PM)

I agree about the naval mod; while carriers should be dominant, they shouldn't be capable of destroying surface fleets with no escorts and no risk to themselves, even though the author of the mod seems to love immortal carriers. Yes, carriers didn't often get sunk by surface ships historically, but it's because they were screened, avoided battle when the weather didn't support them, and generally behaved cautiously. They didn't just brazenly sail out, unconcerned about whether they even have escorts, and engage surface ships with complete impunity. In my last game with the mod, I sealed off Gibraltar and Suez as the Axis, and trapped one UK carrier in the med. I had killed its air complement and got tired of it hanging around in the last allied port, so I airdropped to grab Crete and figured my surface ships could deal with a single carrier with no planes, no friendly ports, and no supply. After several turns of teleporting the carrier around and getting bunches of NM, I had to bring in bombers to actually kill it, and even that took multiple turns!



ThunderLizard11 -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/12/2020 12:03:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LordOfPants

I agree about the naval mod; while carriers should be dominant, they shouldn't be capable of destroying surface fleets with no escorts and no risk to themselves, even though the author of the mod seems to love immortal carriers. Yes, carriers didn't often get sunk by surface ships historically, but it's because they were screened, avoided battle when the weather didn't support them, and generally behaved cautiously. They didn't just brazenly sail out, unconcerned about whether they even have escorts, and engage surface ships with complete impunity. In my last game with the mod, I sealed off Gibraltar and Suez as the Axis, and trapped one UK carrier in the med. I had killed its air complement and got tired of it hanging around in the last allied port, so I airdropped to grab Crete and figured my surface ships could deal with a single carrier with no planes, no friendly ports, and no supply. After several turns of teleporting the carrier around and getting bunches of NM, I had to bring in bombers to actually kill it, and even that took multiple turns!


Had same experience. I think mod creator Hairog is no longer actively developing.



lwarmonger -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/13/2020 4:53:37 AM)

I'd be game, but I've switched to playing Fall Weiss mod pretty much exclusively. Playing allies just got to demoralizing in vanilla (even if you do everything right, just a very narrow path to "victory"... and against an evenly matched player you still feel like you are losing because you aren't matching history insofar as progress).



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/13/2020 8:25:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lwarmonger

I'd be game, but I've switched to playing Fall Weiss mod pretty much exclusively. Playing allies just got to demoralizing in vanilla (even if you do everything right, just a very narrow path to "victory"... and against an evenly matched player you still feel like you are losing because you aren't matching history insofar as progress).


Hello lwarmonger,

Haven't even opened that flavor, Fall Weiss that is. Let me take a look.

Regards,
-Legend



Simulacra53 -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/16/2020 8:29:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordOfPants

I agree about the naval mod; while carriers should be dominant, they shouldn't be capable of destroying surface fleets with no escorts and no risk to themselves, even though the author of the mod seems to love immortal carriers. Yes, carriers didn't often get sunk by surface ships historically, but it's because they were screened, avoided battle when the weather didn't support them, and generally behaved cautiously. They didn't just brazenly sail out, unconcerned about whether they even have escorts, and engage surface ships with complete impunity. In my last game with the mod, I sealed off Gibraltar and Suez as the Axis, and trapped one UK carrier in the med. I had killed its air complement and got tired of it hanging around in the last allied port, so I airdropped to grab Crete and figured my surface ships could deal with a single carrier with no planes, no friendly ports, and no supply. After several turns of teleporting the carrier around and getting bunches of NM, I had to bring in bombers to actually kill it, and even that took multiple turns!


Hairog has a concept for his mod and sticks to it, maybe to the detriment of playability.
I have not played his mod, I like the fleet idea and more attention to naval warfare, I didn’t try it - partially because of the balance.
Mods are a labor of love and Hairog should be praised for his effort.
Some mods simply work better than others, regardless of effort or concept.

Maybe you can convince Hairog to rebalance his mod.



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/16/2020 1:07:17 PM)

There's no doubt a "Labor of Love". The dude put alot of work into. It's impossible to spend endless hours testing balance, especially with all the whacky stuff players will try. Love it or leave it, give Hariog some praise! Hariog, nice work. Appreciate a your work. Good job.

Mods are like Music, just depends what you like. Additionally, the two games I played, I went in blind. I like to go in blind in most things in life (games, movies, musics, etc.) so I can come to my own opinion, then hear public opinion.

-Elvis

Others may pass your way
And let you think their love is true
But you know that they'll never replace
The one that waits for you



crispy131313 -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/16/2020 1:13:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lwarmonger

I'd be game, but I've switched to playing Fall Weiss mod pretty much exclusively. Playing allies just got to demoralizing in vanilla (even if you do everything right, just a very narrow path to "victory"... and against an evenly matched player you still feel like you are losing because you aren't matching history insofar as progress).


Interested to see this comment. Are you playing PBEM? Just curious on how the balance is as I mostly play the WIE version.



ThunderLizard11 -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/17/2020 10:58:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordOfPants

I agree about the naval mod; while carriers should be dominant, they shouldn't be capable of destroying surface fleets with no escorts and no risk to themselves, even though the author of the mod seems to love immortal carriers. Yes, carriers didn't often get sunk by surface ships historically, but it's because they were screened, avoided battle when the weather didn't support them, and generally behaved cautiously. They didn't just brazenly sail out, unconcerned about whether they even have escorts, and engage surface ships with complete impunity. In my last game with the mod, I sealed off Gibraltar and Suez as the Axis, and trapped one UK carrier in the med. I had killed its air complement and got tired of it hanging around in the last allied port, so I airdropped to grab Crete and figured my surface ships could deal with a single carrier with no planes, no friendly ports, and no supply. After several turns of teleporting the carrier around and getting bunches of NM, I had to bring in bombers to actually kill it, and even that took multiple turns!


Hairog has a concept for his mod and sticks to it, maybe to the detriment of playability.
I have not played his mod, I like the fleet idea and more attention to naval warfare, I didn’t try it - partially because of the balance.
Mods are a labor of love and Hairog should be praised for his effort.
Some mods simply work better than others, regardless of effort or concept.

Maybe you can convince Hairog to rebalance his mod.


There's some decent ideas that can be pulled into base game. Looks like support for the mod is on hiatus.



Hairog -> RE: Naval Mod should be renamed, with warning label (8/29/2020 12:44:25 PM)

How in the world did I not see this thread until tonight? I put these mods out there a long time ago and begged for feedback. All was quiet so I thought it was all cool. I now see that possible changes are needed.

There is a function in these forums that allows you to send a PM

OK lets get to work. What are the top 5 problems with the naval mod? Lets give them a go and see if we can fix them. Everything is up for improvement.
One big thing first. It appears that some of you have missed one of the key concepts here.

quote:

* BB attacks lone Jap CV - odds 5-0 against BB?

quote:

destroying surface fleets with no escorts

quote:

but it's because they were screened, avoided battle when the weather didn't support them, and generally behaved cautiously. They didn't just brazenly sail out, unconcerned about whether they even have escorts, and engage surface ships with complete impunity.


Statements like this make it readily apparent that the task force unit and concept is misunderstood.

The Fast Carrier Task Force is not a single carrier, it’s a task force. You may have two or even 4 CVs, 1-4 BBs, 1-4 CAs, and 30 DDs. The unit represented is not just the Enterprise but a grouping of ships for a particular purpose commonly called a task force. During WW2 most capital ships were sunk by Fast Carrier Task Forces. Few were sunk by naval gunfire and many of those after being crippled by air attack.

Japanese torpedoes took a heavy toll as well.

Statements like the following puzzle me.

quote:

Favors the Japanese, thus Axis, big-time.


Which rule change or changes does this? The rules are the same for both sides so how does it favor the Axis over the Allies? The Axis have zones of control and the Allies have the exact same Zones of Control etc. I have done nothing to alter the balance. What could possibly be causing this?

quote:

* Too many "damage evaded" for Axis.


Once again both, sides were changed exactly the same. There is nothing that could change it from the Vanilla game.

Enough of this, let’s fix what’s wrong.

Give me the 5 things you would like to have changed and I’ll see what I can do



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