So is this a good game? (Full Version)

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Antmf_slith -> So is this a good game? (8/11/2020 8:33:35 PM)

Thinking about buying it and am relatively new to 4X games. Is it hard to learn and is it deep? Please let me know... Finger is on the trigger. BTW I have DWU and started learning that game and having such fun. Is it similar as far as learning curve?
P.S is this game a micromanaging hell?



ZiggyMaca -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/11/2020 9:38:42 PM)

If you like like DWU, I think you will like SE. It is deep, and there is a learning curve. There is a lot of management options and controls, but I would not call it hell. There are many systems and mechanics to deal with. I think the game is super interesting, for me at least, and the game has a very good scenario setup system to support many playthroughs. If you like learning a deep game with many deep systems, with tons of replayability, SE is a recommend from me.



eddieballgame -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/11/2020 9:53:20 PM)

It is an easy choice for 'Strategy Game of the Year'...hands down. (imho)



CaptBeefheart -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/12/2020 1:39:22 AM)

It's a great game. Do what I did: Start on "beginner," which is pretty forgiving, and as you slowly pick up the different concepts move up the difficulty scale. There's no need to read the whole manual in the beginning.

Cheers,
CB



Malevolence -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/12/2020 4:53:58 AM)

The design isn't quite as tight as Distant Worlds, but it's a good game.

The developer here mixed a number of different mechanics together. It adds card-driven elements for example. Worlding building. Also, 4X elements not used in more traditional hex wargames. Build your own weapons systems, technology research, and city building.

There is more random number generator use than is used in Distant Worlds. This is mostly to cover the game's biggest weakness, the opponent AI.

It's not too easy, but you will not get steamrolled by an aggressive and competent AI either. Hard modes give significant advantages to the AI instead of providing more cunning opponents.

I recommend it, nonetheless. Beware, it's a time sink if you get into it.



MtnPatriot -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/12/2020 5:55:28 AM)

I'm not huge on 4x or hex war, but I'm loving this game; hell, I'd give it game of the decade in my personal awards. My main background is grand strategy, going back to Europa Universalis 1. Ive dabbled in 4x and hex, mostly 4x, both before and after, but this is the most fun I can remember having both learning and playing a game since EU1. A quick web check tells me EU1 was released in 2000, hence my award.
Someone more versed in hex games, or 4x games could compare and contrast them to this game better than I, but it's the novel combination of both, with some role-playing and nation defining choices that just makes this strategy game mish-mash the most enjoyable I've yet had the pleasure to play.



zuekamo -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/12/2020 6:06:56 AM)

best 4x released since dominions 5.

I recommend you to play in easy with 1 zone, tech4, and 1 or 2 armies.



demiare -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/12/2020 11:27:28 AM)

It will be a truly great game after a ~year. Seriously lack polishing now - both in term of UI and game balance/design.
If you want to try it now - look on SE as a game in early access and not completed one. It will reduce amount of annoyance a lot.



Theotenai -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/12/2020 1:12:45 PM)

As ZiggyMaca said, if you like DWU, you will probably like SE. There is clearly a learning curve but knowing a few things like logistic and how to manage your ressources is enough to start, and you can learn more in depth mechanics as you play.
Demiare is right, it's not yet polished, and in fact it's in early access, so it's normal, but it's already completly enjoyable.



eddieballgame -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/12/2020 11:30:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Theotenai

As ZiggyMaca said, if you like DWU, you will probably like SE. There is clearly a learning curve but knowing a few things like logistic and how to manage your ressources is enough to start, and you can learn more in depth mechanics as you play.
Demiare is right, it's not yet polished, and in fact it's in early access, so it's normal, but it's already completly enjoyable.


I still don't get the 'DWU' comparison (I own it) & per 'early access'; my understanding is that 'Vic' has been working on this for years & the release was a complete product.
Sure, beta patches & official patches are part of getting the game (any game, for that matter) to full potential; but I do not look at this game as an 'early access' release like so many failed games on 'Steam'...far from it.
When modding options are implemented, this gem will rank second to none for its' potential.



Theotenai -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/13/2020 12:30:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eddieballgame

I still don't get the 'DWU' comparison (I own it) & per 'early access'; my understanding is that 'Vic' has been working on this for years & the release was a complete product.
Sure, beta patches & official patches are part of getting the game (any game, for that matter) to full potential; but I do not look at this game as an 'early access' release like so many failed games on 'Steam'...far from it.
When modding options are implemented, this gem will rank second to none for its' potential.


About the DWU comparison, you're right, both are completly different games, but both bring the same feeling of satisfaction, by watching a large scale story taking place, thanks to a deep, detailed and plausible approach. I should have specified this.

As for the "early access" status, I thought that it was presented as is, my bad. And I agree it is far away from the usual early access elsewhere. I've read somewhere that Vic intend to work for a few years in order to implement all his ideas for this game (again, unlike a lot of other), so I guess it's a finished game with a lot of work in progress ^^



CaptBeefheart -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/13/2020 1:05:07 AM)

I wouldn't call this "early access." It's a great game right now, and Vic is continually updating it to be even better. That will give the game years of replayability.

Cheers,
CB



eddieballgame -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/13/2020 6:00:30 AM)

[/quote]About the DWU comparison, you're right, both are completly different games, but both bring the same feeling of satisfaction, by watching a large scale story taking place, thanks to a deep, detailed and plausible approach. I should have specified this.

As for the "early access" status, I thought that it was presented as is, my bad. And I agree it is far away from the usual early access elsewhere. I've read somewhere that Vic intend to work for a few years in order to implement all his ideas for this game (again, unlike a lot of other), so I guess it's a finished game with a lot of work in progress ^^[/quote]

No worries, just offering my '2 cents' for the 'op'. [:)]



demiare -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/13/2020 6:08:38 AM)

I would call it "early access" because game absolutely lack balancing in very obvious areas (gas&gauss rifles I'm looking on you! & many events & offensive doctrines bonuses are applied to counter-attacks during defense) and still have tons and tons of bugs, just not critical&obvious ones (but game still have crashes so... personally I get once "index out of array"[:D]).

C'mon, several types of models aren't included in any OOB! Mechanized artillery isn't included in OOB! [X(] You can't be serious that it's a completed game now. This is exactly level of Steam "early access" games. Probably it would be one of best games, but still - currently it's unfinished.



eddieballgame -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/13/2020 9:33:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

I would call it "early access" because game absolutely lack balancing in very obvious areas (gas&gauss rifles I'm looking on you! & many events & offensive doctrines bonuses are applied to counter-attacks during defense) and still have tons and tons of bugs, just not critical&obvious ones (but game still have crashes so... personally I get once "index out of array"[:D]).

C'mon, several types of models aren't included in any OOB! Mechanized artillery isn't included in OOB! [X(] You can't be serious that it's a completed game now. This is exactly level of Steam "early access" games. Probably it would be one of best games, but still - currently it's unfinished.


Could not disagree more on the tag 'early access'.
Particularly if one is going to use Steam's model as the definition of.
Is the 'dev' done with this, I think not.
So, semantics aside, this game is way beyond that 'ea' tag.
That is my opinion on a game I have played every day since June 4th...in part, thanks to Covid-19.
BTW...zero crashes in all that time, & a friend of mine who has logged almost as much time...1 crash.
Not bad for a game that some claim is unfinished.
If there was never another patch this game would still rank ahead of many finished 4x releases.
Fortunately, that will not be the case...I am sure.



Rednettle -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/13/2020 2:04:55 PM)

It's a very good game, but it's also a headache. There are so many things to keep track of and so many reports to look through. When I first bought it I put a huge amount of time and effort to learn it. And I'm still missing things or not remembering them and having to relearn. And I'm still not even 90% sure I understand logistics, economic points, and other stuff. The last time I played DWU was in 2016 accord to Steam. Then it was like homework to play it and I put a lot of time into it as well. SE is better than that experience, and yes I know that was 4 years ago for DWU, but I'm finding myself reluctant to play SE for similar reasons. Each time I load a saved game I have to go over/redownload to my brain everything that is going on. Stats of units are not readily visible, what buildings are under construction, what qualities my leaders have, etc. Also there are things like not being alerted to when something is finished building so I have to keep rechecking. As my empires grow larger it's too frustrating to keep track of. I can keep going about my issues with the game. I can get enjoyment out of a session, but coming back to one is a lot of work. The more time I've stayed away the harder it gets. But I also enjoy the game at times and can see how great it is.



Antmf_slith -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/13/2020 2:08:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rednettle

It's a very good game, but it's also a headache. There are so many things to keep track of and so many reports to look through. When I first bought it I put a huge amount of time and effort to learn it. And I'm still missing things or not remembering them and having to relearn. And I'm still not even 90% sure I understand logistics, economic points, and other stuff. The last time I played DWU was in 2016 accord to Steam. Then it was like homework to play it and I put a lot of time into it as well. SE is better than that experience, and yes I know that was 4 years ago for DWU, but I'm finding myself reluctant to play SE for similar reasons. Each time I load a saved game I have to go over/redownload to my brain everything that is going on. Stats of units are not readily visible, what buildings are under construction, what qualities my leaders have, etc. Also there are things like not being alerted to when something is finished building so I have to keep rechecking. As my empires grow larger it's too frustrating to keep track of. I can keep going about my issues with the game. I can get enjoyment out of a session, but coming back to one is a lot of work. The more time I've stayed away the harder it gets. But I also enjoy the game at times and can see how great it is.


I feel the same way with DWU and this game as I try to learn. When I reload a saved game I forget what in God's name is going on and have to rethink everythinglol I really enjoy DWU and trying to learn SE but its almost like studying for a test. I have to study and remember for the next time I load a savved game lol... Which makes it less enjoyable sometimes...



willgamer -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/13/2020 3:50:45 PM)

Great game, possibly GoTY.

However,

the UI is at the level of early access; it's primitive, awkward, incomplete...

The ideas, not yet implemented, in the suggestions thread are numerous.

Just a few things that come to mind as I'm writing this include-

-the terrain icons are difficult to distinguish one from another;

-the map cannot be scrolled with left/right click and hold;

-the mouse wheel does not scroll reports;

-the target lists of many card actions include many items that do not apply;

-most lists are in random order and not sort-able or filter-able;

-many decisions are presented without key information... thus requiring many clicks to dig out of reports;

-cryptic or missing mouse over tips;

-key critical info is missing from the Urgent Issues report, such as workers being unpaid;

-formation generation is awkward, incomplete, and frustrating to use;

-only in the manual can you discover which staff council produces which cards;

-determining the cause of supply issues is still mostly opaque;

-cards cannot be sorted or inapplicable cards hidden.

These are just a few of the many issues mentioned the the suggestion thread that need attention before this game can be considered ready for prime release.




jwarrenw13 -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/13/2020 5:28:58 PM)

Disagee completely on "early access." It is a superb game today, right now, that is still being improved. How long has War in the East been out? It is still getting updates. Shadow Empires is a new game, so it is getting improvements by a designer who listens to people now that it is out. Vic has a long track record of working for years on improvements to his published games. "Early access," whenever it is used to describe a released full version of a game, carries a heavy negative connotation, regardless of the intent of the writer.



eddieballgame -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/13/2020 5:44:49 PM)

'willgamer' some of your list is valid per needing some improvements.
However (for example) per "-most lists are in random order and not sort-able or filter-able", what exactly, are you referencing?
All of the 'Leader' categories can be listed in order of best to worst or visa-versa...& there are many categories to choose from.

Per "the UI is at the level of early access; it's primitive, awkward, incomplete...", that is opinion not shared by everyone & certainly not by me.
I find it superb in navigating a plethora of data.
I agree, however, it would be a pain on a tablet. [:)]

Per finances & many other data info, the 'Rep' tab allows to view many aspects of one's empire...very nicely I will add.

Per logistics/supply, I have been fortunate to not have struggled with that aspect.
Thanks, in part, to this helpful forum & 'DasTactic' to name a few.




demiare -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/13/2020 9:19:21 PM)

Okay, I will use term "currently SE is in beta stage" if you're so annoyed by "Early Access" :)

But it's true - several core mechanics is working only partially:
0) UI. UI is horrible.
I can't fire & replace a leader in same season? I can't place a leader in recently created zone/formation. WTF?
Stratagems are not set in place and moving around constantly. No sort here, just a huge mess. Stratagem window is more and more slow to open if you're having a lot of stratagems. Seriously? In 2020?
Game is seems to be tested only using NATO counters, attempt to play without them is a huge, huge pain. Random color for new OHQ? Yes, of course! Why our OHQs can't have similar colors? [:D]
Shadow Spy & Shadow Diplomat cards. Seriously? In 2020? I'm unable to use them directly in "Cover ops" / "Diplomacy" tabs? Nooo, you need to do more clicks! Clicks are life!
Several postures cards description isn't fitting in 1080p. It is not most fancy resolution, but well isn't obsolete one too.
1) OOB system as whole. Separate tanks OOB - seriously, gods prohibit you to mix light tanks with heavy? [:D]
2) Creating new zone unavoidable leading to 1 turn starvation & tons of happiness penalties in it. If you're not using stratagems / worker happiness bonuses - usually you will get 5-20% worker strike soon after colonization. It's extremely stupid.
3) While game tries to provide logs on tooltips (and that's cool) - they're still incomplete in every area. For example most bonuses from stratagems are never traced in such logs - despite they're zone happiness logs, leader relationship logs...
4) Military (!) techs are unbalanced and placed crazily. 2 RPG techs in SAME field? Why not? [:D] Useless gas-rifles and railguns inferior to lasers? Why not? Combat armor protecting better then 50mm of steel? Why not?
5) Tech discovery extremely opaque. Seems that there is a hidden roll to discovery instead of collecting enough BP like research. But can I see my rolls/targets? No! It leading to humorous situation when sometimes you're discovering tech/OOB with less then 100 BP and other time fail to do so with more then 300 BP.
6) Tons of events are forcing player to make a choice without an option to refuse. Golden example is "promising soldier" pack of events. Seriously you're trying to say that as a President/King/etc I'm forced to pay for anything my military want? [:D] Tons of unbalanced events. Here is a golden example is "marauders..." event - roll for skill NOT developed by governor, don't count garrisons (?! AFAIK national guard was used to stop marauders after hurricane destroyed a city & it's usual practice for military to patrol routes against bandits&marauders during any war). Sorry, but for me is absolutely not fun to "randomly" receive a events where I have 0% chance to success. If you're rely on randomness - you should give a player tiny chance of success.
7) AI is not only receiving it's usual AI economy bonuses, but purely cheating with logistics. Especially roads. I still mad on AI. Nobody in manual tell me to NOT play on planet with 20+% mountains. Guess my impressions after that game? [:D]
8) Postures. Both offensive and defensive modifier applied to counter-attacks. Sadly I'm always forget to check what will happen with counter-attacks if I have both offensive&defensive bonus [:D] My only guess it was made to buff AI as it's unable to properly hide attacking troops behind defending ones.
9) Ammo & machines building are alien to whole economy. They're definitely seems like remains of alpha "quick&dirty" testing.
10) Replacement system is half-done.
First we'are unable to upgrade existing vehicles. This look especially stupid in case of special upgrades like "Sensors" or "Cluster-bombs".
Second - our soldiers are one-use only and refuse to be retrained on new model. This why we need to waste recruits to REPLACE vehicles in existing units. Can I double face-palm here? Because IRL pilots & crew often re-trained in middle of their duty. Sometimes (around WW2 times) are several times.
11) Absolutely unequal profile choices. Democracy get much more then meritocracy, while autocracy get almost nothing but huge penalties. Sad, I thought that propaganda is a key "feature" of AAA-titles.

P.S. Still to be honest I need admit great job been done over logistics system. While it was same huge half-done mess in 1.0 - now it's seems to be finished and very intuitive to use. This is a really good job. [&o]



Twotribes -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/13/2020 9:42:55 PM)

And all are intended as this is a finished product. That you don't like it does not equate to beta.



wodin -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/13/2020 9:56:42 PM)

Yes it's good, very good.



jwarrenw13 -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/13/2020 9:57:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

Okay, I will use term "currently SE is in beta stage" if you're so annoyed by "Early Access" :)



And you are just wrong. Everything in your list of improvements is woth a discussion, but to say easrly access or beta is ridiculous. If you really feel that way, perhaps you should just step away from the game until it is out of beta/early access and fully playable to your standards. Or you might consider discussing the improvements you would like and problems you note without using pejorative terms, because that negates the message. But at least you did not resort to THIS GAME IS BROKEN!!!!!!



eddieballgame -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/14/2020 1:49:10 AM)

Admittedly, if I had only read demiare's list of what makes him feel this is an 'early access' release, I might I have refrained from purchasing it.
However, as I have stated previously, I have played this game since day 1 release (June 4th) & have not stopped putting in much time on it on a daily basis; to include 2 'pbem' games which are going great. (not necessarily for me, however [:)])
This has been one of the best gaming experiences I have had in long time due to the quality of its' content to include great game mechanics which allow for said enjoyment, enhanced by a wonderful forum & 'dev'...imho.
The statement that the UI is horrible, for example, is but an opinion...nothing more.
Certainly not provable to me.

I suspect when the 'op' asked his/her question the responses would be but a few.
I hope he/she was not disappointed & just maybe they helped. [:)]




demiare -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/14/2020 4:39:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13
And you are just wrong. Everything in your list of improvements is woth a discussion, but to say easrly access or beta is ridiculous. If you really feel that way, perhaps you should just step away from the game until it is out of beta/early access and fully playable to your standards. Or you might consider discussing the improvements you would like and problems you note without using pejorative terms, because that negates the message. But at least you did not resort to THIS GAME IS BROKEN!!!!!!


Huh. Half-working core mechanics IS equal to beta-testing. Sorry but it's generic guideline to versioning. And you can't be serious that current formation system is anything but half-done, again we have unit models that lack any place in OOB. It isn't level of finished product.

Same with logistics. On release logistic was a horribly mess (yes, now it's fixed). It's 2020 now, player shouldn't fine-tune it each turn to feed basic buildings.

Let's compare with another great indie - Factorio. It openly states that was in beta-access, it added content over time, but even during beta-test it's lacking half-finished things that almost lack use for player.

Still game is good and promising to became a great one.



jwarrenw13 -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/14/2020 3:43:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13
And you are just wrong. Everything in your list of improvements is woth a discussion, but to say easrly access or beta is ridiculous. If you really feel that way, perhaps you should just step away from the game until it is out of beta/early access and fully playable to your standards. Or you might consider discussing the improvements you would like and problems you note without using pejorative terms, because that negates the message. But at least you did not resort to THIS GAME IS BROKEN!!!!!!


Huh. Half-working core mechanics IS equal to beta-testing. Sorry but it's generic guideline to versioning. And you can't be serious that current formation system is anything but half-done, again we have unit models that lack any place in OOB. It isn't level of finished product.

Same with logistics. On release logistic was a horribly mess (yes, now it's fixed). It's 2020 now, player shouldn't fine-tune it each turn to feed basic buildings.

Let's compare with another great indie - Factorio. It openly states that was in beta-access, it added content over time, but even during beta-test it's lacking half-finished things that almost lack use for player.

Still game is good and promising to became a great one.


I continue to disagree with your Steamlike assessment of beta/early access. I think you are throwing those words out there to get attention. But you are getting attention for the wrong reason. Try focusing on the improvements you want and problems you see instead of the labeling. That would be a more reasonable approach.



t1it -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/16/2020 3:37:05 PM)

Bestest* 4X game since DW:U so you'll be right at home.



KingHalford -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/19/2020 4:12:41 PM)

It's not just my Game of the Year, it's not my "Game of the Decade", it's my "Best PC Strategy Game of All Time" and I've been playing these games since 1980s.

No hyperbole, it's just that good.

Shadow Empire is akin to Distant Worlds with regards to quality of gameplay at the expense of graphical fidelity whilst still suffering from some of the same issues that game had, such as unexplained/obtuse/opaque systems, which for me isn't an issue because it drives my desire to experiment and explore (certain spectrum autism-droids who need everything in black and white might not get along with it for the same reason.)

If you're undecided you might like my review, it is quite long but I tried to write it to be entertaining

: https://explorminate.co/what-to-expect-shadow-empire/



VoodooDog -> RE: So is this a good game? (8/20/2020 12:55:55 PM)

such a stupid question to ask in a forum like this tbh



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