Bounced off again (Full Version)

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morganja -> Bounced off again (9/7/2020 12:02:35 AM)

I'm not sure Vic is getting proper feedback from people. The game is in desperate, desperate need to provide better information to the player. Not the beta-testers who've been playing this game for a year. For people who are actually trying to learn. No game should make things this deliberately difficult to figure out what is going on. Seriously, I understand people are bored and there is a pandemic, but do any of you people have jobs?

For starters, how about not having a player spend a thousand hours in trial and error to figure out the subtle skills each job needs? Post them.
What the hell does the SHQ dude do? What skills help what?
Why is it listed absolutely nowhere what a 'better job' might be. It takes literally 30 seconds to list the hierarchy of jobs.
Why do I have to build a farm to find out what it will yield? It's fun to guess? No, it really isn't.
Why can I see an enemy unit in the turn play-through but it disappears when it is the player's turn? Can I see it or not? Is it fun to watch the play-through to 'catch' where some of the invisible enemy units are? No, it's not.
The recon is totally screwed up. There needs to be something different from the hexes I know a unit is not in, from the hexes I know a unit is in, but can't 'see' for some stupid reason.
The reason for the negative events have to be given at least a hint what is causing them. Really. They do.

I love the game, but it is in no state to be played right now except by people who enjoy a thousand hours of trial and error. I, and most people, are not in that category.



Philo32b -> RE: Bounced off again (9/7/2020 3:56:31 AM)

I feel your pain, as I myself came very close to calling it quits on the game at a certain point as well. There seemed too many sub-systems to master, and they are all connected, so failing one dooms your efforts in others. (That turned out to not be quite true.) But I stuck with it (and I do have a day job; I don't put in 1,000 hours playing), and all of a sudden everything started to make sense. Stick in there, and you will turn a corner.

Some responses:
* I absolutely agree with your "better job" criticism. I have the table bookmarked in the manual that tells me what the prestige level of each job is. That should be in a tool tip.
* You can see approximately what the farm will yield by left clicking on it and looking at the level you are thinking of building. (I say "approximately" because the governor's skill affects it and other factors, etc.)
* I must confess I don't know exactly what the SHQ guy does in game terms, though I know the skills and traits he should have to do his job better.
* Not sure why you can't see units when you can during the AI playthrough. That does sound odd. I haven't noticed that myself. (But I haven't really been looking carefully during playthrough.)
* The tool tips for each trait ("intelligence" and "High Command and Etc") shows what role needs that trait. So I know that a SHQ commander should have a high willpower (as well as other traits).

I'm not saying you shouldn't be frustrated--I was super frustrated, too. And I think a lot of things could be changed to make it less frustrating. (Don't get me started on the logistics system.) But things do start to come together.



Shilka -> RE: Bounced off again (9/7/2020 4:37:24 PM)

Just a few chime ins.

quote:

Why is it listed absolutely nowhere what a 'better job' might be. It takes literally 30 seconds to list the hierarchy of jobs.

<--- True for in-game, there could be a small list of some sort of prestige/hierarchy when sacking/offering jobs. Otherwise there is a list on the manual in section 5.8.2.1.


quote:

Why can I see an enemy unit in the turn play-through but it disappears when it is the player's turn? Can I see it or not? Is it fun to watch the play-through to 'catch' where some of the invisible enemy units are? No, it's not.


<--- This needs expanding further. Regarding FOW, I've seen this same issue take place in other games as well. It could be because during the other players phase, the enemy unit moves close enough to spot, but it could've moved back out/away again before the end of turn. Did the enemy unit move and stay in place or did it move away? Some other games employ a recon/detection level based FOW as well. There are dedicated recon units which garner up more recon data than other units - if you don't have them you need to either then have more units/troops who can, abstracted by the game, deploy more advanced scouting parties. Also the hex represents a large area, which is what recon level is supposed to picture. Additionally, since we don't have the source code/formulas for this game, we don't know whether recon data/level for one side changes DURING the turn phase of the enemy side. There could be factors such as morale, exp, readiness etc. at play

quote:

The recon is totally screwed up. There needs to be something different from the hexes I know a unit is not in, from the hexes I know a unit is in, but can't 'see' for some stupid reason.


<--- Not enough to "know" a unit is there, in game units play by preset rules regarding recon. Sometimes there is a very fine line between knowing every employed mathematical formula for everything happens in the game (which might employ a lot of random rolls and many/combination of different experience/leader modifiers etc) vs. just using common sense. I for one consider it fun as my militia wanders alone exploring the forest, only to find after I get too far out of supply, when I start returning back my supply line has already been cut off by unknown groups, I have no recon in the forest, am surrounded, walk into ambushes and get killed. It is probably pretty realistic in the confines of what a hex-based game can produce.



t1it -> RE: Bounced off again (9/7/2020 8:55:25 PM)

Manual will be updated later I'm sure of it. In the mean time, read it, half your points are already there.
Personally I loved the first time I played it, had to figure things on your own, just like the old days.



HansLemurson -> RE: Bounced off again (9/7/2020 10:32:25 PM)

"It's all there in the Manual" applies here, and there is a LOT. I spent a week learning the game with the manual open in a PDF viewer, constantly minimizing the game to see what it said about different systems.

The in-game information is enough to be able to play the game, but not enough to be able to understand all its systems.

There are logs buried in the UI for just about everything that happens in the game, but you kinda have to already know what you're looking for.



jpwrunyan -> RE: Bounced off again (9/11/2020 12:54:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morganja

I'm not sure Vic is getting proper feedback from people.


This is my concern as well. There are so many own-goal level fails in this game's design after many months that I'm concerned the right feedback is reaching the developer.

Building costs/tech level are not balanced. EG: Power plant is stupidly costly to make power compared to Solar plant in the early game (and late game it's obsolete). Storage buildings cost to much period.

Private sector builds stupidly. EG: This has actually gotten worse with 1.05 it seems. It used to be the private sector would build useful assets if they were not present like transport hubs and farms. Now it takes forever to build a farm, will never build one in your capitol. And always builds farms it really stupid locations instead of *right next to your zone city!*. No, I don't need you to upgrade the water mine. We're already capped out on water! ARG!

Councils are not balanced. EG: Why would I ever take applied science as my first choice? I can do nothing with it.

Stratagem costs are not balanced. EG: Call to Power is completely overpriced. Threaten leader can't compete with just giving them official gift. Unification is always better than its alternative (whose name I forget because I literally never use it).

Secret Service council deserves its own call-out for being garbage. Literally nothing it offers is worthwhile compared to alternatives in other councils. I choose it for "hard mode". I'm sure someone will try to explain how it's good. It's not good enough compared to everything else unless you have absurd autocracy, which you can only do if you are playing a truly easy planet/scenario.

Profiles are not balanced. EG: Autocracy is another "hard mode" as it offers cards that can only be used for Secret Service council, which are overpriced and garbage. Its events are almost always the worst choices.

Critical Failures are dumb. EG: So my diplomat is so bad that when he gives a gift it will most likely *lower* relations, but on the other hand he's so bad that if he tries to provoke a war he'll most likely *improve* relations? WTF? So depending on the outcome I want, I will actually choose the card that is supposed to do the opposite. I saved this complaint for last because it's my *favorite*.

I have more and just don't know where to begin. I am/was not a beta tester. I can't believe however that I'm the only one who has experienced the above issues.



pauls2271 -> RE: Bounced off again (9/11/2020 2:28:24 PM)

Agree on the Power plants. I've only built them on planets that I am swimming in oil (as the 500 oil/turn requirement is large). I think Solar was supposed to be expensive because it requires Rare Metals. With Recycling generating a lot of RM, it is very cheap to build.

I don't pay much attention to the Private sector. Unless they build on an Oil or Metal deposit, then I simply take it from them.

I think Councils weren't meant to be "Balanced". Some were always going to be far more useful and required than others. These days I always take the Model Design council first as I want Artillery and Tanks ASAP. The SS Council generates a ton of spy cards. I only take it when I want to use spies to see what the happening far away from me.

Yes, some profiles need more love - autocracy is one. But I did like using Assassinate Leader to purge idiot governors that kept causing unrest issues. I also never see Strat cards that come from >70 percent so those cards are "wasted".

Critical failure/success is built into all the game. I doubt that is changing any time soon.



gmsitton -> RE: Bounced off again (9/11/2020 10:24:22 PM)

You can always defund a council until when you need Strtegum cards from it. The Applied Science council is critical.



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