Anti-tanks tech for Soviet Union? (Full Version)

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boudi -> Anti-tanks tech for Soviet Union? (9/7/2020 4:57:01 PM)

Yes or not? What are your opinions?




Bo Rearguard -> RE: Anti-tanks tech for Soviet Union? (9/7/2020 5:57:00 PM)

Anti-tank units are kind of a niche creature. If the enemy parks a tank unit right next to them so you can blow it away with the 30% prepared bonus in your turn, they're great. If an enemy armored unit bumps into them unseen while moving they're really great. The rest of time they're sort of an oddball unit not especially good at defending against the infantry and artillery units which are the majority of any army.

I'd definitely hold off on researching/buying these until all other needs are met. However, by that point in the game as the Soviet Union maybe the tide has turned and you are in more need of offensive than defensive units, so they're kind of out of a job.

I think I only built one when playing the Russians. I was always uncertain where to best deploy it and wherever I put it, it always seemed to get stomped on by German Corps and Armies. I think may have eventually banished it to Siberia.



Bo Rearguard -> RE: Anti-tanks tech for Soviet Union? (9/7/2020 6:23:40 PM)

Now that I think about it, the ultimate drawback of anti-tanks units may be their single purpose research branch. When you research advanced tanks it benefits light tanks, tanks and heavy tanks. When you research infantry weapons the resulting upgrades apply to cavalry, partisans and recon units as well. But only AT units get anything from AT research which makes it less desirable to invest in as there is no cross-situational bonus.

Just a thought, but maybe anti-tank upgrades should result from a combination of both tank and infantry research. After all, most anti-tank units were usually nothing more than a group of tank-caliber guns & crew, without the tank.



Marcinos1985 -> RE: Anti-tanks tech for Soviet Union? (9/7/2020 7:20:18 PM)

They are definetely worth it in my opinion. Couple of pros:
1. You get this tech for free. Refunding it yields only 62 MPP's
2. They are very good against tanks, which for USSR are main threat (esp in early years)
3. They are really resilient against infantry too. Against 'Hard' type their defense is 2, so like Corps with level 1. But at the same time, they are 'Light Armour' type, so inf attack against them is noticeably lower (army with IW1 has attack of 3). Put them in a good terain and they will not give in easily.

There is also a psychological factor. Rarely a player will want to put their shiny Panzer in range of this thing. Put them flexibly on the front, and your opponent will have to solve a puzzle.

They aren't that good on attack, true, but against tanks still they will deliver some dmg. And as Russia you should be happy to trade Panzers hp for your at gun HP's.



Torplexed -> RE: Anti-tanks tech for Soviet Union? (9/7/2020 8:28:23 PM)

As the Russians, I only ever get around to making anti-tank units if virtually everything else on the roster has been built, and if there are MPPs to spare. The soft build limits only allow for a few, and they're not particularly cheap. The base cost of a Russian anti-tank unit is 200 MPP. You can buy a far more useful heavy artillery or rocket artillery unit for that price. Plus, as mentioned, each level of anti-tank research only profits the anti-tank class and no other units, and they are almost useless for attacking infantry.




Elessar2 -> RE: Anti-tanks tech for Soviet Union? (9/7/2020 8:46:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bo Rearguard

quote:

Just a thought, but maybe anti-tank upgrades should result from a combination of both tank and infantry research. After all, most anti-tank units were usually nothing more than a group of tank-caliber guns & crew, without the tank.


Or with a tracked anti-tank vehicle.

In previous editions of SC, anti-tank tech was built into infantry units. But with a maximum of 3 tech slots, something had to go (vs. infantry, mobility, and A-A). Opening up a 4th slot would help remedy this situation, and would model all sorts of A-T goodies, from simple stationary guns to panzerfausts & bazookas to StuGs and M-36's and Su-76's and such.



Bo Rearguard -> RE: Anti-tanks tech for Soviet Union? (9/7/2020 9:26:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2
Or with a tracked anti-tank vehicle.

I seem to recall one of this game's developers stating that the anti-tank units in this game represent massed anti-tanks guns on a narrow front. What the Germans called "Pakfronts". During the large Soviet armored attacks on the Eastern front in late 1941–1942, the Germans quickly realized that their anti-tank guns, operating individually or in small groups, and with no central commander, were quickly overwhelmed.

The pakfront concept was developed to counter this. A group of up to ten guns were placed under the command of one officer. He was responsible for designating targets and directing the fire of his guns. This allowed the Germans to spring particularly effective anti-tank ambushes, with all guns being assigned separate targets and then firing at once, maximizing surprise and minimizing the chance for return fire. These were then developed into even larger units.

The Soviets soon copied the tactic, and used it to great effect at the Battle of Kursk in July 1943. The tactic was found to be extremely effective, and the Soviets embellished upon it by using multiple pakfronts in co-operation with minefields, anti-tank ditches, and other obstacles to channel the enemy armor into their fields of fire. I'm thinking that this is what is represented in the game by the anti-tank units.

The problem with the anti-tank guns mounted on an AFV chassis, (tank destroyer concept) is that because they looked like a tank, everyone (including officers who should have known better) tended to treat them as tanks. I just got done reading American Knights, a book about the US 601st towed anti tank battalion that got upgraded to M-10 tank destroyers. The author of the book complained that were often taken out of their anti-tank role, and called upon to do everything the Sherman tanks in the armored divisions and battalions did, from overrunning infantry to bunker busting with the M-10s. I guess that explains why the tank destroyer concept got shelved at the war's end. Why have two different types of vehicles that do the same thing? [:D]



Tanaka -> RE: Anti-tanks tech for Soviet Union? (9/8/2020 6:22:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

They are definetely worth it in my opinion. Couple of pros:
1. You get this tech for free. Refunding it yields only 62 MPP's
2. They are very good against tanks, which for USSR are main threat (esp in early years)
3. They are really resilient against infantry too. Against 'Hard' type their defense is 2, so like Corps with level 1. But at the same time, they are 'Light Armour' type, so inf attack against them is noticeably lower (army with IW1 has attack of 3). Put them in a good terain and they will not give in easily.

There is also a psychological factor. Rarely a player will want to put their shiny Panzer in range of this thing. Put them flexibly on the front, and your opponent will have to solve a puzzle.

They aren't that good on attack, true, but against tanks still they will deliver some dmg. And as Russia you should be happy to trade Panzers hp for your at gun HP's.


Agreed. In my current MP game I have probably destroyed more allied tanks with my German anti tank guns than I have with tanks. And many times offensively. Next game I will focus even more on anti tank units and research. As it should be. The German 88 was devastating and one of the most effective weapons of WW2.



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Anti-tanks tech for Soviet Union? (9/8/2020 8:45:18 PM)

Considering you'll be facing Panzer tech level 4+ at some point, you never everything you got. Winter weather and a couple Anti-Tank units can be tasty. Can have all the toys in the toybox, but as most know, I mix my game up each game. Give them a shot. Have fun.



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