quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

I am also putting my vote in on limiting the shells available per round after watching my opponent Old Crow just evaporate my Central Power fronts in two turns from unlimited shells...game over!

On that note why is artillery in this game so much stronger than the WW2 games? Why so many more shells?? Was not artillery in WW2 more powerful than WW1? This game makes it the other way around!

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ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

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ORIGINAL: Tanaka

I am also putting my vote in on limiting the shells available per round after watching my opponent Old Crow just evaporate my Central Power fronts in two turns from unlimited shells...game over!

On that note why is artillery in this game so much stronger than the WW2 games? Why so many more shells?? Was not artillery in WW2 more powerful than WW1? This game makes it the other way around!

Dude! I don't have max shells with Any of my Entente Powers, (yet). I hoarded the ones I have and I'm using shell discipline. I only have been pumping enough to de-entrench and maybe a little more, (especially Przemzl which is a fortress).
Also, T1 Arty combined with Inf1 follow up attacks on enemies that Only have Trench 2 tech (no concrete) will be eaten like mincemeat. That is what is happening atm in our match.

HOWEVER....while there have been a lot of great ideas about how to temper artillery in this game, removing a chit in artillery research has only been a half measure. The SHELLS need to be fixed..and not by complicated means. Just Remove 1 (ONE) chit from their research tree. Like they say in the army, KISS : Keep It Simple Stupid.

If thats not enough...then restrict it to 1 chit only.

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ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Well it sure felt like it when you had like 8 artillery pieces fire like 8 times each two turns in a row it how was I to know! Or was it the same 4 because I assumed to have that many shells double the artillery? Haha. How did you fire that much two turns in a row? Nothing can survive that much artillery for two turns. Also regarding the trenches I don't know why my research is sooo abysmally slow in this game compared to the last...was research changed in the last patch?

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ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

I haven't gotten to the part of the game where both sides have +4 shells per arty per turn. That seems insane.

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ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

I'm making a mod for fun and I have Gas/Shell Production set to level 2 maximum with only 2 chits invested allowed. But honestly even that might be too much. Might reduce it to 1 maximum Gas/Shell tech for everyone besides Germany France and UK, set max shells equal to 2 + logistics tech, and then equalize the number of guns.

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ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

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ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Well it sure felt like it when you had like 8 artillery pieces fire like 8 times each two turns in a row it how was I to know! Or was it the same 4 because I assumed to have that many shells double the artillery? Haha. How did you fire that much two turns in a row? Nothing can survive that much artillery for two turns. Also regarding the trenches I don't know why my research is sooo abysmally slow in this game compared to the last...was research changed in the last patch?

The only research that has changed since the last patch (1.03.00) is the removing of one chit from Artillery research...which has helped somewhat.

Now...about my shell discipline.

one example: France ARTY lvl 1 #B has Shell LvL 2. I waited till I had 10 shells. I bombarded one of your positions (ger Inf corp 0, with a trench lvl of 2) I pumped 2 rounds in to de-trench it. Then, I checked a hypothetical combat check on that corp..saw it still had really high readiness and morale. Pumped 2 more shells into it. ARTY #B has 6 shells left.

I re-check combat probabilities..looks slightly better. Commence ground attack with 3 corps and one followup. Destroy ger Corp. Continue other movements and attacks on other sectors....

Next turn. France ARTY lvl 1 #B regains 3 shells (1 by default + 2 because of level = 3. 3 + 6 shells saved from previous turn = 9 shells.

That's what you are seeing.

Shell Discipline is Essential in this game. At least a 1 chit take away on Shell Research will make it even more essential...and would mirror how it was historically imo.

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ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Okay guys tell me which of these two schemes you prefer:

Global Changes that affect both plans:
-Artillery may not gain experience and may not gain elite reinforcements
-Elite reinforcements costs decreased to the same as regular reinforcements (tactical artillery will be constantly firing every turn)
-Decrease industry tech to +10% per turn instead of +15% MPP per turn to reduce late game mpp bloat (perhaps reduce chits invested from 3 to 2 also)
-Infantry get +1 de-entrenchment at level 2 weapons

ARTILLERY PLAN A:
Divide Artillery into two units: Heavy Artillery and Tactical Artillery
-Heavy Artillery represents big guns and can only de-entrench and do morale damage (level 2 morale damage reduced)
-Tactical Artillery represents light guns (e.g. French 75) and can only do strength damage (no de-entrenchment or morale damage)
-Maximum shells per turn limited to 2 instead of 4 (one level of gas/shell production tech)
-Maximum stored shells limited to 3 instead of 10 (two levels of logistics tech)
-Perhaps give infantry +1 artillery defense if Tactical Artillery level 2 is too damaging

ARTILLERY PLAN B:
Don't divide Artillery into two different units (still does de-entrench, morale and strength damage), slightly INCREASE their number
-Maximum upgrade level 1 (level 2 does too much strength damage especially to weakened units)
-Maximum shells per turn limited to 2 instead of 4 (one level of gas/shell production tech)
-Maximum stored shells limited to 3 instead of 10 (two levels of logistics tech)

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ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Haha well I have a scenario saved that has quite a few changes. And then I realized no one is going to agree to all of them. So it would probably be better to release a "lite" version of my scenario that only has the "most popular and agreed upon" changes

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ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Okay guys tell me which of these two schemes you prefer:

Global Changes that affect both plans:
-Artillery may not gain experience and may not gain elite reinforcements
-Elite reinforcements costs decreased to the same as regular reinforcements (tactical artillery will be constantly firing every turn)
-Decrease industry tech to +10% per turn instead of +15% MPP per turn to reduce late game mpp bloat (perhaps reduce chits invested from 3 to 2 also)
-Infantry get +1 de-entrenchment at level 2 weapons

ARTILLERY PLAN A:
Divide Artillery into two units: Heavy Artillery and Tactical Artillery
-Heavy Artillery represents big guns and can only de-entrench and do morale damage (level 2 morale damage reduced)
-Tactical Artillery represents light guns (e.g. French 75) and can only do strength damage (no de-entrenchment or morale damage)
-Maximum shells per turn limited to 2 instead of 4 (one level of gas/shell production tech)
-Maximum stored shells limited to 3 instead of 10 (two levels of logistics tech)
-Perhaps give infantry +1 artillery defense if Tactical Artillery level 2 is too damaging

ARTILLERY PLAN B:
Don't divide Artillery into two different units (still does de-entrench, morale and strength damage), slightly INCREASE their number
-Maximum upgrade level 1 (level 2 does too much strength damage especially to weakened units)
-Maximum shells per turn limited to 2 instead of 4 (one level of gas/shell production tech)
-Maximum stored shells limited to 3 instead of 10 (two levels of logistics tech)

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ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

I am playing my first MP game as CP and I look like making it into late 1915 at least. On the Western Front it has been a bit like a "phoney war", where both us are probably keeping our powder dry while we build up our artillery arm. Early artillery is fairly weak and I have not fired my German unit at all. This is not really right though, is it? Because early artillery was just as lethal as late war artillery in many circumstances. What changed during the war quite considerably was artillery doctrine (e.g. creeping barrages, flash spotting etc) and the massive increase in shells (many were duds though when the numbers were first increased). So I think there are two things to put into the pot called "Adjusting artillery" for consideration -

1) correcting the feebleness of early war artillery by allowing them to de-entrench from the outset (should help to encourage more dynamic early play rather than a "phoney war")
2) the possibility of getting a "dud" result occasionally with artillery fire (maybe a 1 in 10 chance on average)

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ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

First...Good Luck on your first MP! May the storm gods favor your enterprise.

Talking about pre-tech 1 artillery, I have been able to use them with great effect in demoralizing a target, especially in conjunction with the recon bomber.

Example: I as the CP was able to encroach on the Russian fortress of Novo-Georgievsk in Poland. I had 4 corps on it. I then got a message 'Novo-Georgievsk besieged..defenders morale reduced' (or something along those lines) So that turn I pushed up the arty behind my line...waiting for the turn I could upgrade it.

Next turn..upgrading the art still was shy, but I checked the fort defenders morale..it was really low...and decided to commence an attack on it. Recon Bmr first...then the arty about 6 shells...then a 4 corp attack. The defenders morale was down so low I was able to destroy it...and occupy the fort. It was even a turn of mud...but it worked!

Since that fandango worked...I have occasionally used pre-tech 1 arty in a similar fashion in other matches.
So...there is some utility in early artillery..just not the detrenching, but as a morale destabilizer, it works well.

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ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

Yes, I am sure you are right for occasional circumstances. It sounds like what you are describing happened in early 1915. I still wonder whether artillery should at least have a chance to de-entrench from the start of the game. In my mod they are able to and doesn't seem to unbalance things much at all. If you look at the early war schedule of when artillery is introduced into the game . . .
.
.
.
So there is not actually that many artillery units in the first 6 months of the war and extra purchases of artillery units and Tech advances do not start kick in until mid 1915.

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ORIGINAL: Bavre
And on the general topic: I too am hugely in favor of limiting shellproduction a bit. It would at the very least alleviate the situation somewhat.

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ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

It's not editable I'm afraid, though the de-entrenchment represents a reduction in the quality of defensive position, and a unit that moves before attacking is, compared with a Prepared Attack, going to receive higher casualties.

One thing you could do would be to increase the defensive bonus of a Trench, and also increase the Prepared Attack Bonus. The effect of both changes together being to make unprepared attacks more costly.