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Brigz -> (8/14/2003 7:46:13 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Dave, the ooooooonly thing that counts is if the game runs, and satisfies.[/B][/QUOTE] Well, I toooootally disagree with you on this. Isn't the main purpose of upgrading games to make them run better and be more satisfactory? I'd feel pretty unsatisfied playing a game if I knew there was a better version available. You play ASL. So why did you spend all that money on it when the original Squad Leader was fun and satisfying?

Anyway, I think we are approaching this from two different perspectives. My criteria and your criteria for a game are different. You seem to approach games as a game player, while I approach games more as an historian. The more accurate and versitile a game is then the better I'll like it. (Don't get me wrong, I still like simple and fun games but we're talking about TOAW here.) Based on my little bit of research in the past few days and based on some of the things you have said and Norm Koger has written, I've come to the decision that, yes, I do want to buy TOAW: COW. My only question now is, will COW run on Win98se?



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/14/2003 9:05:54 AM)

Whats ME?

Oh yeah Millenium. That worthless piece of crud that with luck will take a millenum to ever occur again :)

I like XP, very dumb I don't know squat friendly.

Sure glad I wasn't sucked in by either ME or 2000. Frankly Bill should give any that bought those two, a free copy of the OS of their choice as an apology.

Good choice Knavery.

Hey was that your comment at Battlefront about Warfare HQ membership?

I go there only infrequently, but they are the place to be for Talonsoft games more or less.



Knavery2112 -> (8/14/2003 10:43:16 AM)

Yes that was me inquiring about the membership at WarfareHQ. It seems you need someone to refer you. How ELITE... Anyway.. I've been a member at Battlefront for over a year now and have played CM since it came out. Or.. I'd like to think I have.. haha.. I never get responses there. Seems they are a tight little group.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/14/2003 8:43:48 PM)

Referal Knavery? that's a new one on me, wasn't the case when I signed on. They rebuilt the site the other day though, might have changed.

Want a referral?

Dave, guess I stated that poorly about game running.

With me, the best way to get me mad, is sell me a game that just plain doesn't run, and do it knowingly.
And I can think of games guilty of that sin too.

But TOAW isn't a game that was made this year of last year or the year before of course. And a few designs that were made when it was made, have not always made the move to XP style OS willingly.

But regarding CoW working on 98SE, hmm I would actually be shocked if you could find any software that wouldn't.
The only thing I can say about 98SE in a negative light, is, well, it's 98 SE :)
If CoW won't run in 98SE I want to know, it will be the first program I myself have encountered that won't.



Knavery2112 -> (8/14/2003 8:51:01 PM)

Yeah.. I'd like a referral if you can give me one. That would be great. Could you email me at 'ignusknavery@hotmail.com' with your username there? I would appreciate it! thanks.:)



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/14/2003 9:02:26 PM)

Will do dude, look for it later today (migraine just hit, my brain's OS just crashed hehe).



Brigz -> (8/16/2003 3:28:28 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Dave, guess I stated that poorly about game running.

With me, the best way to get me mad, is sell me a game that just plain doesn't run, and do it knowingly.
And I can think of games guilty of that sin too.[/B][/QUOTE]

Well I totally agree with that. I've got plenty of games that fall under that catagory. I guess what I was trying to say is that with a game as good as TOAW I want the most up-to-date and current edition as possible. I just couldn't stand playing and plotting moves for hours knowing that there is a "better" version available. Besides, I'm going to have to upgrade the machine and won't be using Win98se forever, so I will want a version of TOAW that will run under whatever version of Windows I eventually end up with when I buy a new computer.

And off topic, you have said many times how much you like Korsun Pocket. Isn't that the same Decisive Battles of WWII engine used by SSG/SSI's earlier Ardennes Offensive? How does it compare to that earlier game?



Kung Karl -> (8/16/2003 3:38:36 AM)

What exactly is the diffrence between the TOAW Volume 1 with patches and TOAW: COW?
Are the diffrence that major? Besides XP compability.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/16/2003 8:49:31 AM)

Knavery I just looked in on Warfare HQ myself actually.

I am assuming you would have to register much like you would at any normal forum or site.

I went and began the process as if signing up for the first time, but can't seem to see any sign of requirement being a referral though.

If if is of any aid to you though, you can use me to assist. My username at Warfare HQ is LestheSarge9-1f (ain't no spaces in the name there). At one time I was adding letters to distinguish my identity from site to site (actually wish I hadn't now).

Any that know me, generally know me as Les the Sarge 9-1 (in one minor variation or another). The name is a derivative of an ASL counter for those that don't realise it. The Avatar was a hand made creation based off of a British ASL Leader counter.

Let me know if you continue to have trouble signing up there.



Knavery2112 -> (8/16/2003 12:40:04 PM)

Thanks Les,

I went on there and registered with you as a referral. It will not let you register as a new user unless you put a referrer that has an account on the site. It's where you select your username, password and email account. Now off to wargaming. :)



Kung Karl -> (8/16/2003 4:53:02 PM)

Hello?! Diffrence between TOAW 1 and COW??? Besides XP compability and scenarios, I mean the game mechanics.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/16/2003 8:11:40 PM)

Hello Kung, hmm differences, I am unaware there are any critical differences at all really.

To use out of game examples, the Heroes of Might and Magic Game or the Civilization game has evolved in noteworthy ways since it was first made.
Version 1 of Heroes is basically rebuilt in version 2. There are a lot of similarities, but it isn't the same game. Version 3 just adds more that makes it that much more different from version 1 and by the time you get to version 4, you have radical game changes (even though the original premise of the game remains).

TOAW 1 was designed with WW2 battles, and TOAW 2 was made with modern battles. But to look at the two products, there is nothing worth mention of an obvious sort that has changed (other than the obvious being one is WW2 and one is definintely not).

The re releases of the game since have been more about incorporating software fixes that all games absorb over time. They haven't to my knowledge re invented the game.
The CoW release uses a few design tweaks that make it capable of running in XP, but that is more outside of what the game actually is than anything else.

I think if the game wasn't basically well liked though, there would never have been a TOAW CoW produced in the first place. It only re appears due to the source needing new stock if all I have seen is any indication.

I would compare it with Matrix Games recently re releasing their Mega Campaigns. The re released Mega Campaigns are only different in that the new downloads come with the patches built in. It's the same Mega Campaign as was sold originally.

Therefore, I don't think TOAW as originally released, will be different in a game sense of the word from from the CoW released which is really just all the previous releases all bundled together.

As I speak, I have CoW. All it is, is a single cd game now that possesses the sum total of all the other releases. One install installs the whole enchilada. To the best of my knowing, that is the only perk. That, and they made it so the game runs on a computer running XP. And if I am not mistaken, OS compatibility is not a game mechanic issue.

Yet another outside remark for instance. I am mostly interested in Korsun Pocket as it has a built in copy of the earlier game Ardennes which works inside XP. The original Ardennes won't work in XP. I am sure the Korsun Pocket included Ardennes is the same game, just no OS hassle.



Brigz -> (8/16/2003 11:15:39 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kung Karl
[B]Hello?! Diffrence between TOAW 1 and COW??? Besides XP compability and scenarios, I mean the game mechanics. [/B][/QUOTE] I own Opart 1 and Opart 2 and based on my research and the reason I'm going to buy COW is because they both now use the game engine used in Opart 2. So instead of having to use two different CD's to run the games you just run both on one game engine. I also read that the Opart 2 engine (the one used in COW) is more "historically" stable and includes all the tweeks and refinements to the older versions. Also there was a lot of controversy on the "disengagement from combat" programming and I understand that the COW engine provides the latest update for that giving a more realistic result. Plus I belive there have been refinements to supply and don't forget that you get a lot more scenarios in COW including those for WWI.
My suggestion. Buy Opart COW and you will have the last word on this game.



Kung Karl -> (8/17/2003 1:34:51 AM)

Well, I've already bought TOAW 1: Elite Edition for 28 USD including shiping. The price for COW would be 75 USD including shiping. Now, I am mainly interested in WW2 combat so the exclusion of modern battles is no drawback. WW1 would have been fun but not inportant. So, is the new game engine itself worth the extra 47 USD? To me it seems more clever to buy Korsun Pocket for those extra 47 USD.



Brigz -> (8/17/2003 2:45:48 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kung Karl
[B]Well, I've already bought TOAW 1: Elite Edition for 28 USD including shiping. The price for COW would be 75 USD including shiping. Now, I am mainly interested in WW2 combat so the exclusion of modern battles is no drawback. WW1 would have been fun but not inportant. So, is the new game engine itself worth the extra 47 USD? To me it seems more clever to buy Korsun Pocket for those extra 47 USD. [/B][/QUOTE] I really don't feel comfortable telling you how to spend your money. But 75 bucks for COW seems a bit high to me. I'm hoping to find a copy for around 40 bucks or less. I wouldn't pay 75 bucks for it. I'm going to check the local software and game stores around here and see if I can find a bargain basket copy. If you are only interested in WWII then I (and this is only my personal opinion) would just stick with the TOAW 1 Elite edition. I would guess that it is up to date for that era of warfare. Remember, this is just my opinion and the final decision is up to you. I don't own COW yet so I really can't give a "veterans" opinion if it's worth the extra money.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/17/2003 6:35:32 AM)

Cost is relative Dave.

It cost me 80 bucks Canadian to end up with Century of Warfare in my hands, didn't even blink paying that.

Now I have seen perhaps a dozen titles on the shelf in the last year now, and I don't mind saying I looked at them and stared at the box long and hard and frankly something kept telling me the item was just to flaky to take seriously.

I don't mind paying out serious cash for a real geneuine wargamers wargame, but, well, there are games out there going for 50 bucks on average, and I think spending 5 bucks on them would be asking for to much.

If you have bought 10 wargames in the last year, odds are you have bought at least 3 that were out and out garbage.
There seems to have been a lot of bad creations in the last while.



NefariousKoel -> (8/17/2003 5:26:21 PM)

I'm really wondering right now... why should I anty up the extra green for an old game I've played and bought already when Matrix is starting to put these nostalgic counter-ridden tabletop like games back out on the market en masse??

Nope... gonna pick up the newer ones if I make another purchase. ;)



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/17/2003 6:54:43 PM)

The answer is of course, because Battlefields or Korsun Pocket while good games, are still not TOAW.

One can not play one game if they have another :)

But in my case for instance, I plunked down solid cash, even while already owning the game in an earlier incarnation, as I wanted it in a format I could more readily employ.

80 bucks to give Win 98 SE the finger was not so bad :)



StrategyCat -> Re: Operational Art of War (8/17/2003 8:43:44 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kung Karl
[B]Does anyone know were to get this game? I live in Sweden and the game can't be purchased here anymore. I realy want this game but I don't know were to get it. [/B][/QUOTE]


Why would you want to buy this shoddy product? Ok, that's a rhetorical question, as you can spend your money as you please, but consider this:
A couple of months ago, the developer of this game, Norm Koger, released another patch for the most recent edition of the game, the 'Century of Warfare' edition. This was patch 1.06, as I understand it. He's had this patch done for a year or two, but couldn't previously release it because he did not own the rights to the game (Talonsoft did). After presumably aquiring the rights, or at least getting TS' permission, he finally released the patch. This was a long-awaited patch that players had been clamoring for.
Now, at least a couple of months after the patch's release, players have found that it broke the game. That's right, a patch that the developer had been sitting on for a year or two turns out to break the game. And this is certainly not the first time this has happened with this game.
It is no exagerration to say that, since day one of this game's release way back in June of 1998, that a good number of patches have done nothing more than introduce new bugs to the game.
This game is the poster child of bad design, imo. Considering all the patches, upgrades, "engine" changes and new editions, there have probably been over 20 changes made to this game - and it's still broke.
It's your money.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/17/2003 8:47:03 PM)

Hmm words well spoken.

But broken is a strong term I usually reserve for only games that are truely wretched.

Can you elaborate more fully on how the game is "broken"?



Pippin -> (8/17/2003 9:47:50 PM)

I remember years back now.. Koger wanted one of the big hits patched... and Talonsoft refused, insisting the sources remain in the safe....

Is this a company you want to be supportive of?



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/17/2003 10:05:34 PM)

Your comment might be immaterial though Pippin.

While yes a person can still buy games wearing the Talonsoft label, everyone seems to be of the opinion there no longer actually is a Talonsoft.

I for instance have nothing kind to say about Hasbro, but it doesn't stop me from buying ASL from MMP even though technically I am putting money in Hasbro's pocket.

I have nothing kind to say about the makers of HoI though, and you can bet I will need better than iron clad proof one of their games is worth anything after I have seen how they do business.

SSI won't sell off the rights to Steel Panthers for love of money, but SSI is also in some ways now just a label that once was considered a wargamers label.

So in the end, a person either likes the TOAW design or not I suppose.
I have no suggestions to offer as a alternative game at this time, one that can at least equal TOAW (regardless of some preceptions by some that it has shortcomings, which have not yet been isolated and mentioned specifically).



Brigz -> Re: Re: Operational Art of War (8/17/2003 10:55:49 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by StrategyCat
[B]Why would you want to buy this shoddy product?[/B][/Quote]
To each his own. I like the game. It's very complex and an ambitious design so I have realistic expectations and don't expect it to be perfect. It plays well and all I can say is one man's diamond is another man's lump of coal. I bought Vol I and II and am going to buy COW also. Perfect or not there is no other game on the market that can do as much as TOAW.

[Quote][B]Now, at least a couple of months after the patch's release, players have found that it broke the game. That's right, a patch that the developer had been sitting on for a year or two turns out to break the game. And this is certainly not the first time this has happened with this game.[/B][/Quote] :rolleyes: These are the kind of remarks that I take with a grain of salt. Your comment would be more believable if you would say why it is broke. Just saying that a patch breaks the game offers no one any advice or help. Could you please explain to us just what the patch does and why it breaks the game? Was the game okay before you applied that last patch? If so, then don't apply the patch and you will still have an "unbroken" game.

Don't take this as an "angry" or "flame" response. I'm being quite civil. I'm sincerely curious as to why the patch you are talking about breaks the game. Any further information you can provide would be very helpful to those that don't want to waste their money on a "broken" game.



Brigz -> (8/17/2003 11:59:41 PM)

Okay, I did a little more research on this and found the following article to be of help to those interested in this series of games.

http://www.wargamer.com/reviews/grog_toaw.asp

I've already heard of these problems and I wish the game was more perfect too, and like the author of the above article says, it still leaves much to like about the game. I'm certainly not ready to dispose of it. I don't own any game that is absolutely accurate (except maybe chess or or a deck of cards). Sure I can understand why some gamers are frustrated by TOAW's quirks and errors, but there is no game available with the scope and ambition that this game has. It's still lots of fun and I still like playig it. Maybe with the help of those that really know what the problems are, the game can be hammerd into a game that will meet the specs of those who require more perfection in their games.



Kung Karl -> (8/18/2003 12:23:37 AM)

That article was no fun reading.:( I lost interest directly for this game. I should have read it before I bought the game. I only read all the other standard reviews and they all said it was the best operational gamethat existed. Liars!!!

But then agin, I don't regret buying this game when I think about it. I wouldn't have any peace in my soul if I hadn't played this game in my life. Can't wait to get it! Now I am a little happier and the game might be fun even though it is not a good simulation.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/18/2003 12:26:37 AM)

That was a heck of a read Dave.

Hmm just takes me back to why I call ASL the best wargame ever made. It is that detailed and that accurate. Beats the snot out of playability according to some.

Probably accounts for why I call Steel Panthers my computer wargame of choice.

Now if you want to read about me beating up another wargame, you can find me harrassing designs over at Wargamer currently hehe.



Brigz -> (8/18/2003 12:41:13 AM)

One more thing guys, and the reason I've been doing a bit of research into this whole TOAW I - TOAW II - TOAW WOTY - TOAW COW puzzle. What I appear to have found out is that TOAW I and TOAW I WOTY use the same engine. TOAW COW uses the TOAW II engine for all battles - WWI, WWII, and Modern. I can't remember where I read it but I do remember someone saying (it might even have been Norm himself) that the TOAW II engine was more stable and accurate. That's why I'm going to replace my TOAW I and TOAW II games with TOAW COW. I just wonder if those inaccuracies in the above article would be present with the engine used in TOAW COW. I don't think they do, but I guess I'll find out. Anyway, if someone has the answer, I'd love to hear it.



Pippin -> (8/18/2003 12:47:39 AM)

Just a side note.. never got TOAW to run under XP. I did get it run under Win95 after numerous problems. Seems there was a directX issue causing the install to not install.

While the game did manage to run, sound never did work properly.



Brigz -> (8/18/2003 12:54:23 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pippin
[B]Just a side note.. never got TOAW to run under XP. I did get it run under Win95 after numerous problems. Seems there was a directX issue causing the install to not install.

While the game did manage to run, sound never did work properly. [/B][/QUOTE] What I've read is that TOAW I and TOAW II do not run on anything newer than Win98se. That's not the fault of the games as they were designed when Win98 was the newest OS. Blame Microsoft if your games don't run on newer versions of Windows.

I've decided to send an email to Norm Koger and see if I can get him to read this thread. He's a very busy guy and I won't be surprised if he doesn't have the time, but it certainly won't hurt to ask.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/18/2003 1:29:02 AM)

I recall having the problem just mentioned with TOAW 1 I think it was a dll hassle with the install.

A fairly easy fix is available. It is used "during" the install process. It addressed a problem where the install would go fine, then when you went to run the game it wasn't there.

Not sure if that is the same problem as was just mentioned though.



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