Gibraltar out of Supply (Full Version)

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Harrybanana -> Gibraltar out of Supply (10/24/2020 11:17:51 AM)

Can anyone explain why Gibraltar is out of supply in the screenshot below? I have seen Axis blockades of Malta reduce Allied supply there to basic supply. But I don't think I have ever seen a port (and the units in it) completely out of supply before. There are 3 or 4 Axis air units in range of Gibraltar but they didn't even fly any port interdictions against Malta this turn. The Italian fleet is just one ship and is not even blocking the Atlantic side. I am using 1.00.08.01.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/215BA15FEAF349569122AD558E687308.jpg[/image]



Harrybanana -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/24/2020 11:41:29 AM)

OK, I see now in my turn report that it says that Gibraltar is being supply blockaded. So I assume that this is the Italian single ship fleet putting me out of supply. Is this a new rule in 1.00.08.01? I know I have had Italian fleets beside Malta before without it being totally out of supply. This will make taking Gibraltar and Malta a lot easier. Of course, it will also make it a lot easier for the Allies to blockade all the Italian ports in North Africa. So How do I put Gibraltar back into supply? Do I need to destroy the Italian fleet, or is it enough if I have UK fleets in Gibraltar? If the answer is that I need to destroy the Italian fleet, then what is stopping the Axis player on his next turn from moving another fleet into the same location?



[image]local://upfiles/14737/47E5EBE694254799921323FAD3C925E0.jpg[/image]



malkarma -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/24/2020 12:28:27 PM)

You need to have a fleet adjacent to Gibraltar to stablish the supply again.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/24/2020 2:35:19 PM)

Yes this was something new added to the game where Malta and Gibraltar can be cut off since they are single island locations.

The counter is just to have a friendly fleet next to it.



Harrybanana -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/24/2020 4:14:23 PM)

Well the problem with that, especially with Malta, is that the Axis can park 5+ bombers in range of Malta and then just bomb the hell out of any fleet the Allies move in adjacent to Malta. After a few turns of that the Allies will have to decide which is worse: Losing their entire fleet or losing Malta. Of course, having lost North Africa in my game I have the same problem with Gibraltar. As soon as people figure this out I think we will see Malta fall in every game now. Probably Gibraltar too as the Allies can't stop the Axis from conquering French North Africa if they want it bad enough.

A few more questions:

1. Is this rule exclusive to Malta and Gibraltar, or does it apply to all ports? In other words, can all ports now be supply blockaded by a single 1 ship fleet adjacent to the port?

2. Does the blockading enemy fleet have to be in fleet mode, or will it blockade supply even if it is in raider mode?

3. In order to prevent an enemy fleet from blockading your port, does your friendly fleet have to be adjacent to the port or can it actually be in the port?

4. Can subs be used to blockade supply an enemy port?

5. Can subs be used to prevent a friendly port from being supply blockaded?



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/24/2020 5:00:20 PM)

#1 Only those 2 locations
#2 Any mode including Night Mission
#3 it wasn't now it is included because I didn't think of that.
#4 Any naval group
#5 Any naval group

To address your observation....

If the Germans parked 1,500 planes and the Italian fleet off of Malta I think it is pretty reasonable to say they can blockade it.

This is equal to 5 WP air units + the 7 Italian naval groups.
Would you stick the Royal navy out there to get pounded 11 times by the Axis on their turn?

If the Axis want Malta they can take it with enough resources easily. But it would cost them ~7 turns.
~2 turns to move them there
3 turns to fully blockade and bomb it
~2 turns wait till it starves a little
~2 turns to invade and KO the unit
~2 turns to move the air units to somewhere else

That's 11 turns = almost 4 months just to take 1 island by starving it with 5 planes and the Italian fleet.

That can seriously hamper the chances of the Axis winning.



Harrybanana -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/24/2020 5:58:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

#1 Only those 2 locations
#2 Any mode including Night Mission
#3 it wasn't now it is included because I didn't think of that.
#4 Any naval group
#5 Any naval group

To address your observation....

If the Germans parked 1,500 planes and the Italian fleet off of Malta I think it is pretty reasonable to say they can blockade it.

This is equal to 5 WP air units + the 7 Italian naval groups.
Would you stick the Royal navy out there to get pounded 11 times by the Axis on their turn?

If the Axis want Malta they can take it with enough resources easily. But it would cost them ~7 turns.
~2 turns to move them there
3 turns to fully blockade and bomb it
~2 turns wait till it starves a little
~2 turns to invade and KO the unit
~2 turns to move the air units to somewhere else

That's 11 turns = almost 4 months just to take 1 island by starving it with 5 planes and the Italian fleet.

That can seriously hamper the chances of the Axis winning.



Thank you for the quick response to my questions. You continue to amaze me with your devotion to supporting this game.

It doesn't have to be the German Air force, even the Italian Air Force with the help of a couple German bombers will be enough. It also doesn't take the entire Italian navy, just one sub in raider mode. Next time I am the Axis I will move the Italian Air Force in range of Malta while still neutral and begin this supply blockade the turn Italy enters the War. I will also of course invade Vichy French North Africa and do the same to Gibraltar. I would be very surprised if this doesn't become a no brainer Axis move. But we will have to see.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/24/2020 6:37:49 PM)

Well all the Allies have to do is part a fleet there for 1 turn and restore unit supply level 3.

The Allies have to do absolutely nothing to make it easy. Anything better than nothing stops it.



Harrybanana -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/24/2020 9:38:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Well all the Allies have to do is part a fleet there for 1 turn and restore unit supply level 3.

The Allies have to do absolutely nothing to make it easy. Anything better than nothing stops it.


True, but the fleet has to be there at the start of the Allies turn. So if you move in just a single ship fleet (probably the same size as the blockading fleet) the Axis player will sink it with air attacks in his turn. So you have to move in a significant fleet. This means losing lots of ships every 3rd turn. Besides even if you did this your Malta/Gibraltar garrison will suffer losses of efficiency for each turn that it is out of supply (even if it has 3 turns before it is out of full supply). I would also point out that Gibraltar at least had an extensive tunnel system with 18 months of supply (according to Wikipedia anyway).

And why does the Rule only apply to Malta and Gibraltar? Why not Rhodes? For that matter if a single Italian sub in raider mode off the East coast of Gibraltar can sink 100% of its supply (which of course came from the West), why can't 9 units of the RN parked adjacent to say Plymouth prevent invading Axis units there from getting supply into that port. I'm sorry but I just don't see the logic of this. As you said in a previous post, even 95% of the supply ships heading to Tripoli got through. I have no problem with Axis port interdiction as per the usual rules for every other port. I just don't see why the special rules for Gibraltar and Malta.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/24/2020 9:43:00 PM)

Because they are tiny locations compared to a long coast.



Harrybanana -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/24/2020 11:24:51 PM)

I don't see why that is relevant. If I wanted to blockade a port, say Alexandria, I wouldn't need to blockade the entire Egyptian coastline within a 100 mile radius. I would just need to blockade the port itself. Its not as if the supply ships can unload their cargo on a beach (assuming there even is a beach).

Gibraltar in particular would have been difficult to blockade because of its fortifications and the fact that it was literally built to withstand a siege. The civilian population was even evacuated so that they would not be a drain on supplies. Plus, as I said it was incredibly well stocked with supplies. I am certainly not saying that Gibraltar was impenetrable. i don't even know if it deserves the x2 defense modification that it receives. But one thing I do know is that it would not have been taken due to a lack of supplies.

But assuming you are correct that small islands and land masses are more susceptible to supply blockade, then why does this same rule not apply to Rhodes and Scapa Flow? Will this Rule will be applied to all of the small islands (for example Midway and Oahu) in the Pacific War version of the game?

I know I am being a pain Alvaro, but I really think this is a mistake. Now I will shut up and go take my lumps in my game.



michaelCLARADY -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/25/2020 12:01:20 AM)

Malta went thru hell in the real WW2 often on the ragged edge of starvation and zeroed on oil supply. Ya gotta do convoys. Very realistic and painful.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/25/2020 1:50:15 PM)

You funny Harry. To answer your question Rhodes is much larger than Malta ~4-5x the size on the coast of another country surrounded by islands that can hide ships. Malta is alone and it's send island isn't counted as part of Malta port.



Harrybanana -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/25/2020 4:48:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

You funny Harry. To answer your question Rhodes is much larger than Malta ~4-5x the size on the coast of another country surrounded by islands that can hide ships. Malta is alone and it's send island isn't counted as part of Malta port.


Ok. But Malta is larger than Midway and Guam and about the same size as Guam. So I assume this Rule will apply to them when Warplan Pacific is released.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/25/2020 8:39:14 PM)

Yes this rule is already in place and was taken from the Pacific.



kbar -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/25/2020 10:04:53 PM)

I like the way this works. Adds to the strategy of the game.

In my current hot-seat game, Malta is blockaded by subs with plenty of Axis airpower in Sicily. Not enough air cover to move the British fleet to resupply Malta. I sneak a UK sub in with supplies correctly predicting bad weather. It is not sunk. Next turn I drop a supply truck on the defender gaining four levels of supply. I try this again three turns later but the weather remains clear, resulting in a lost sub and no resupply. A couple of turns later Malta falls. The impact of this is not immediate since in the early UK game I send troops/equipment through the Suez until I am ready for the Italian navy.

Later the UK successfully invades North Africa and Libya falls. Now the Allies have air cover and the Axis have Malta to worry about. The UK sends in their fleet with carriers causing major air battles supported by Air units in North Africa. This draws in the Italian navy which is then soundly defeated.

The Axis commitment to capture and hold Malta has resulted in their ownership of the island, a large amount of fuel and strength points expended plus the loss of over half the the Italian fleet. It is now October 41 with rain in the east, and while almost cut off, Leningrad is still held by the USSR. I am not sure it would have held against a stronger Axis push. And with a little caution, the UK can now move freely in the Med. The Malta gambit may not have been worth the cost. Or maybe done with less resources. Either way it is a possible strategy adding variety to the game.

This is why I like WP so much. The play feels right. It may not always be accurate on a micro level, however the general flow of things is spot on.



Harrybanana -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/25/2020 10:45:28 PM)

When was this Rule change introduced? I am using 1.00.08.01. I have tried a hotseat game and put Italian Fleets next to both Gibraltar and Malta. While this causes both of them to suffer supply interdiction, neither is out of supply. Does this mean my version is buggy?




MorningDew -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/25/2020 10:58:24 PM)

1.00.08 release notes:

Added blockade locations to Gibraltar and Malta - 1 enemy naval group next to the port stops all supply. 1 friendly naval group next to port allows all supplies



Harrybanana -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/26/2020 12:18:04 AM)

Ok, so my pbem game (started by my opponent) is working fine. But in the hot seat games I started this Rules is not working. has anyone else noticed this?

Gibraltar in supply.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/96AEA2F6F8A34534B770B9CCA69C0B92.jpg[/image]



Harrybanana -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/26/2020 12:18:41 AM)

Malta in supply.



[image]local://upfiles/14737/800C7BADAFBB4DEC9E6E0C3A9D7F2C82.jpg[/image]



Harrybanana -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/26/2020 12:25:12 AM)

And another question. In my pbem game where my opponent put Gibraltar out of supply I transported the fighter I had in Gibraltar out. I then transported in a new fighter (this cost me a couple hits on my escorting naval fleet). But I could not unload my fighter into the port. The little anchor symbol could not be used. So is it part of this Rule that you can transport units out of an unsupplied port, but you can't transport them in?



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/26/2020 3:19:33 PM)

If a port is blockaded you cant transport something in of course. It is considered out of supply.

I am wondering if some of the games the Gibraltar/Malta block not working because it is the older scenarios or the scenarios have not been updated to the new beta ones.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/26/2020 5:15:31 PM)

I just uploaded 9U84 for the beta small fixes



Harrybanana -> RE: Gibraltar out of Supply (10/26/2020 10:13:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

If a port is blockaded you cant transport something in of course. It is considered out of supply.

I am wondering if some of the games the Gibraltar/Malta block not working because it is the older scenarios or the scenarios have not been updated to the new beta ones.


Well it seems to me that if a player is transporting a unit into a blockaded port it has to run the blockade and the blockading fleet (or enemy air unit in range) will get an interception attempt. If the transporting unit survives the blockading force's interception and makes it into the port hex than it should be allowed to disembark.

In my particular case it turned out that the blockading fleet was a CA with only 1 hit left. I moved a unit into the port hex escorted by a larger RN force and endured some interception hits on my escorting fleet from some enemy air units. I then moved a second large fleet into a hex adjacent to the port and again endured interception damage to this fleet. My understanding is that now that I have a fleet adjacent to the port the blockade is lifted. Yet I still can't disembark my unit, I assume this is because blockade status is only checked at the end of the enemy turn.

So my suggestions are:

1. Change it so that in order to blockade a port a fleet has to be in fleet mode. A Fleet in raider mode suggests to me that the fleet is doing just that, moving around and raiding enemy shipping. Not sitting and blockading a port.
2. Change it so that if a fleet is adjacent to an enemy port it gets the first opportunity to intercept any enemy units moving into or adjacent to the port. Thus if a player wants to blockade a port he will be discouraged from moving in a weak force which really couldn't have established an effective blockade anyway.
3. Change it so that blockade status is lifted as soon as a friendly fleet is moved either into or adjacent to the port.



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