Early attack on France (Full Version)

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Dorky8 -> Early attack on France (10/24/2020 5:18:55 PM)

The same clown thats spotting with Italian transports moved most of his German troops from Poland to the Maginot line and captured Luxembourg. Poland is so weak he only needs a couple tanks.

Looks like he can take France by early '40 because I have almost no troops. Is this normal play here? Starting to think I should move on.



Marcinos1985 -> RE: Early attack on France (10/24/2020 5:45:34 PM)

It's an entirely valid strategy. For what should Germany wait? You will not come to terms diplomatically, so he has to knock you out asap. He has forces to spare, so he uses them.
Still, with good play, France will last until April-May, so close to historically.




Dorky8 -> RE: Early attack on France (10/24/2020 6:08:13 PM)

Its a valid strategy in the game but lacking of any kind of historic accuracy. Additionally the French had a much superior force than is represented in the game. The game is set up for the French to build until Spring '40 so this "valid" unrealsitic tactic gives the Axis a ridiculous advantage in the game.

There is no way the Germans would have pulled troops from Poland to attack Luxembourg and France in Sept '39. In WW2 the Germans attacked May 10 ending the end of June. By jumping the timeline a couple months I'm guessing the Brits are not prepared for Sealion or early Egypt.

I understand the game is a game of alternate possibilities but it shouldn't allow people to unrealistically game the timeline.






ThunderLizard11 -> RE: Early attack on France (10/25/2020 2:38:43 PM)

My last game Axis DOWed Luxembourg early like November. Poland lasted an extra month and with the BEF was able to keep them at bay until late Oct. One thing I do is build several AA units and bring fighter and strat bomber into France. Strat bomber can damage armor a buit and dull Axis edge. I also swap put some armies in Maginit for corps and move armies near Paris.

What are other good counters?



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Early attack on France (10/25/2020 10:51:55 PM)

Unless you're really dumb, you should be able to hold Paris from May to July. Weather is your best friend. If you're new to the game, you'll need to learn the basics, such as entrenchment levels, river/forest defense, AA, etc.



Aussiematto -> RE: Early attack on France (10/26/2020 2:00:07 AM)

Hi all

I often redeploy 2 tanks, 2 a/c and do a few other things to hit Belgium in turn 2. It has mixed results and is, IMO, not ahistorical at all. Sure, it is confronting when first you get “done” but there is a lot like that in the game. It reflects the kind of madness of the Nazi assault in the first place, tbh. Definitely need good weather oh, and do,not take Luxembourg ... it shields the Germans , for a turn or two.

On French weakness ... it is all about morale. Very historical. Just like our dear friends the Italians!

My stories re Belgium in 1939...

Just won, by resignation, a game where Paris fell in January 1940. The moral shock of the blitz led to the Brits scarpering and some errors in defence, even so, this was a pretty quick end. It then, of course, led me to try my first 1940 Barbarossa ... all that time was gold. My oppo resigned in September 1940. I did not think I was that far in front but I will take it. I had hoped to play it out into 1941 to see if USSR could recover but I guess he was annoyed I had tried this. And, to be fair, I think we need some balance. Possibly something like unrest in Germany? Or accelerated reinforcements or ... hm. Not sure.

Am having a big fight with another v good Allied player Who defended France well, i got it in May. He activated the Italians and, while that has led to some wins in the desert for,him, they poured into southern france and ensured french surrender. This one is hard to call ... i reckon he will get me in the end since his russian defence is good and Italy is in strife now.

A third game, i got rubbish weather from turn 2 onwards and bad results in Poland. Even lost Slovakia due to carelessness. I then was still on infantry 1 when I hit Russia in July. Despite my best efforts in Russia, super careful manoeuvre play, I was toast.

So, I am all for the two front war.... makes it interestting!



Dorky8 -> RE: Early attack on France (10/26/2020 9:49:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Unless you're really dumb, you should be able to hold Paris from May to July. Weather is your best friend. If you're new to the game, you'll need to learn the basics, such as entrenchment levels, river/forest defense, AA, etc.



Are you always a Jacka&& or just having a bad day, go away


I happen to have an outstanding knowledge of SC, been playing for a very long time. Only a complete moron would think there is no difference between May & July '40 in this game


Anyone who thinks the game properly represents French/German troops strength in sept '39 should get a history book. The French have zero tanks in the game to start.



Marcinos1985 -> RE: Early attack on France (10/26/2020 11:18:16 AM)

quote:

Anyone who thinks the game properly represents French/German troops strength in sept '39 should get a history book. The French have zero tanks in the game to start.


You are right, that France is ahistorically weak in SC:WaW. IRL they lost the war not because they were punchbags, but because they got surprised/outmaneuvred/outskilled - you call it.

But for sake for gameplay, you can hardly make France strong in WW2 game. Because if they hold German assault in 1940 for too long or even totally, Axis is toast. Game ends outright. So most games make France weak on purpose. I can hardly think of good solution, because benefit of hindsight is such a huge deal.

quote:

Unless you're really dumb, you should be able to hold Paris from May to July.


Against a heavy optimized Axis rush holding Paris to May is a big accomplishement. At the same time, France doesn't always surrender with Paris gone.

@Aussiematto above has a lot of merit. Sn attack on France early makes game interesting, but it can backfire on Germany too. Remember, when they pay for units upgrades/operate, they don't research and maybe late with tech for RUS.



Dorky8 -> RE: Early attack on France (10/26/2020 11:53:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985


But for sake for gameplay, you can hardly make France strong in WW2 game. Because if they hold German assault in 1940 for too long or even totally, Axis is toast. Game ends outright. So most games make France weak on purpose. I can hardly think of good solution, because benefit of hindsight is such a huge deal.




I agree that the game needs to be set up where the French build up to the Axis invasion. My point is by having Poland so easy the Axis can attack the low countries and France in 1939 thus "gaming" the games timeline and giving the Axis an un intended advantage. If the Axis captures France in early May vs late June sealion/Egypt & Barbarossa are under prepared because British & Russian forces also "build" for game purposes.

If the Axis attacks low countries or Maginot prior to Feb '40 French & British points should increase to offset.






pjg100 -> RE: Early attack on France (10/26/2020 9:32:45 PM)

And yet I suspect that with players of roughly equal skill the allies will win more often than not, with the possible exception of play at the highest level of skill. I suspect that that has to do with the likelihood that the allies have a larger margin for error than do the axis. Would be interesting to aggregate the stats from the tournament re this at some point.



Aussiematto -> RE: Early attack on France (10/26/2020 11:02:39 PM)

I concur with pjg100. Allies can recover more easily from early errors.

Incidentally, as for “gamey” strategies, well ...it is a game. If it went according to the script, there is no game. Just simulation of inevitable German defeat. It can be argued that Germany’s only path to victory is the same as in 1939 ... relentless, high risk attack before industrial might of Allies Wins.

Dorky, the Allies have heaps of retaliatory gameyness ... just ask every weeping Axis player who cannot beat russia because of supercharged AVL attacks! Incidentally, you say you have heaps of experience ... is that vs the AI or other players? If the former, then be prepared to be surprised a lot by the clever tricks all humans can play...




taffjones -> RE: Early attack on France (10/26/2020 11:12:54 PM)

I agree with pjg100 the skill level of the players will make a massive difference, against a good Allied player I have had France hold out until Aug-Oct. Especially if you make a mistake as the Axis.
There is also the weather to factor in, if the Axis player tries a early invasion of the Low countries and France and gets bad weather they are in trouble.

As for Dorky8's points there are always going to be players who learn the scripts to gain an advantage and other players who will try unorthodox tactics to see what might have been. It can be unsettling and frustrating to be on the receiving end of both, but its a game not a re-run of history (otherwise there would be no point in playing as we all know the outcome). Also you can learn a lot from seeing what other players do/attempt to do.

Hubert and Bill always try to find a balance between both and for me that's what makes the game interesting and fun to play. Never knowing exactly how its going to pan out.



ThunderLizard11 -> RE: Early attack on France (10/27/2020 12:13:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Unless you're really dumb, you should be able to hold Paris from May to July. Weather is your best friend. If you're new to the game, you'll need to learn the basics, such as entrenchment levels, river/forest defense, AA, etc.



Are you always a Jacka&& or just having a bad day, go away


I happen to have an outstanding knowledge of SC, been playing for a very long time. Only a complete moron would think there is no difference between May & July '40 in this game


Anyone who thinks the game properly represents French/German troops strength in sept '39 should get a history book. The French have zero tanks in the game to start.



Maybe you're new around here but Elvis is one of the star players and freqently has sage and entertaining advice.

And May to July is not that big deal in the grad scheme of things. It partly depends on how hard UK works to support France and what Uk can get done in N. Africa. Folding before May is a problem as it opens up a easy Sealion route.

And it's not a history simulation but a historially based WW2 that let's you bend history with different choices. Some high risk some not.



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Early attack on France (10/27/2020 1:57:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Unless you're really dumb, you should be able to hold Paris from May to July. Weather is your best friend. If you're new to the game, you'll need to learn the basics, such as entrenchment levels, river/forest defense, AA, etc.



Are you always a Jacka&& or just having a bad day, go away


I happen to have an outstanding knowledge of SC, been playing for a very long time. Only a complete moron would think there is no difference between May & July '40 in this game


Anyone who thinks the game properly represents French/German troops strength in sept '39 should get a history book. The French have zero tanks in the game to start.



Dorky8 --- I'm so sorry that I used the word "dumb". I will take a sensitivity class immediately. I've removed the "D-word" for all instances of my online dictionaries, added an extension to my keyboard/browser so it's now impossible to type the D-word. Instead, I will use the word "inarticulate". You should not use the word moron, that is verbal assault, possible United Nations Sanction should be put in place, a misdemeanor for sure.

We good? Lets get back to the subject.

There's more to May, June, July. How many pieces did you lose? How much damage was taken/given? How many MMPs used to reinforce heavy causalities?

I'm glad your a Historical Superstar, can call you Professor Dorky8 if you'd like. If you want the game to be historical, well, game over. Allies won. There's an editor, add all the French Tanks you'd like. Put up an legitimate setup for France/German 1939-1940, people will take a look. Make a Mod.

Going by personal experience. The earliest I lost France, was Feb/March 1940, to Cpuncher. That guy is one of the Top 3 players in the world. I put too many MMPs into Tech, used an inarticulate strategy.

Words,
-EJR

Talk in everlasting words
And dedicate them all to me
And I will give you all my life
I'm here if you should call to me
You think that I don't even mean
A single word I say
It's only words
And words are all I have
To take your heart away

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwwplStgzp4



Dorky8 -> RE: Early attack on France (10/27/2020 6:36:07 PM)

the former I guess



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Early attack on France (10/27/2020 6:40:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

the former I guess


What's your skill level? I'm not top level, but certainly no rookie.

If you're Intermediate or better, I'll play you. Professor, you get choice of sides :)



Dorky8 -> RE: Early attack on France (10/27/2020 7:20:55 PM)

I have only played two MP to the 2nd turn, zero vs AI So pretty low. I wouldn't be much of a challenge. Im used to the early Axis attack on France from WiE, Italian transport recons issue aside I'm not into the scale. Bought the game when it came out thought I'd give it another try, not working.

I've probably played 10k - 15k hrs of SC3 WiE, SC2 (global & Europe Patton etc) & SC1.

enjoy the game, we're good



Zuxius -> RE: Early attack on France (10/31/2020 10:05:19 PM)

Yeah, I have to admit there are times I feel I'm being backed in the corner hard as the allies. Two words: Second Front. Even a failed Second Front can be a great tide turner in Russia. I was disheartened to see my units get ripped to shreds in France and having to send my remaining invasion craft back to England. However, we just loaded up and invaded again some three months later with a whole flood of guys. The effect on the Russian Front was immediate. It was like fighting a juggernaut in the ring and then he raises one hand and falls to his knees with breathing trouble. Moscow and Stalingrad had even fallen.



Christolos -> RE: Early attack on France (11/19/2020 3:16:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Unless you're really dumb, you should be able to hold Paris from May to July. Weather is your best friend. If you're new to the game, you'll need to learn the basics, such as entrenchment levels, river/forest defense, AA, etc.



Are you always a Jacka&& or just having a bad day, go away


I happen to have an outstanding knowledge of SC, been playing for a very long time. Only a complete moron would think there is no difference between May & July '40 in this game


Anyone who thinks the game properly represents French/German troops strength in sept '39 should get a history book. The French have zero tanks in the game to start.



Maybe you're new around here but Elvis is one of the star players and freqently has sage and entertaining advice.

And May to July is not that big deal in the grad scheme of things. It partly depends on how hard UK works to support France and what Uk can get done in N. Africa. Folding before May is a problem as it opens up a easy Sealion route.

And it's not a history simulation but a historially based WW2 that let's you bend history with different choices. Some high risk some not.

I'm about to fire up this great game again for some PBEM gameplay after a hiatus playing SC-WWI, and wanted to catch up on what has been happening on the forum, when I came across this very interesting thread.

I just want to reiterate what ThuderLizard2 has said about EJR and also mention the following:

I too had an exchange with EJR awhile back (see: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4598482&mpage=1&key=Christolos&) which together with this thread, made me realize that he is a cool dude that definitely knows what he is talking about regarding the game, and never means any ill feelings. His Elvis quotes are pretty cool too! [:)]

I agree with the ability of a 'Germany hits France super early" choice for the Axis not necessarily being gamey, but I wonder what the diplomatic consequences are and/or should be. I also agree that this gambit is not an automatic win for the Axis.

C



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