SS units verus Guards Armies (Full Version)

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zed -> SS units verus Guards Armies (8/10/2003 9:56:57 PM)

I was just reading in Eriksons "Road to Berlin" that there were SS units in the Korsun Pocket. Waffen SS soldiers were rotated periodically to duty in the death camps (the Leibstandarte AH was Waffen SS and the soldiers served in the death camps as well), so I read with joy how the Russian Guards units and Cossacks cut them to pieces. The Germans claimed 30K soldiers escaped, the Russians said no one did. I suppose the truth is somewhere in between.



sol_invictus -> (8/10/2003 11:11:52 PM)

I don't think that the Waffen SS soldiers did any duty in the concentration camps; desperately needed at the front. That nasty business was handled exclusively by the standard SS types I believe. There might have been some isolated times that the Waffen SS may have been used in some capacity but that wouldn't have been policy. I've never read of any accounts but I could certainly be wrong.



Fallschirmjager -> (8/10/2003 11:50:44 PM)

:rolleyes:


There was three wings of the SS
The Waffen SS was a pure military wing

Would you send your highest quality fighting men to man a prison/death camp?
No
Its not logical


If you looking for some nasty types who did fight
Look at the NKVD



Wallenstein -> (8/11/2003 1:11:13 AM)

Well, I donīt think there was a "rotation", but the personnel of newly formed SS-divisions was often recruited from death camps or "Einsatzgruppen"---> 3. SS Division "Totenkopf" just to give an example. Later during the war, the SS divisions were filled up with average guys and not voluntarily.



riverbravo -> (8/11/2003 1:14:35 AM)

the Algermiene..sp? Were the death camp boys,who,were related to the 3SS Totenkopf.

I dont remember any of the Liebstandarte's working in the camps.

And the Einzatgruppen were pretty nasty as well.



Belisarius -> (8/11/2003 3:37:34 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by riverbravo
[B]the Algermiene..sp? Were the death camp boys,who,were related to the 3SS Totenkopf.

I dont remember any of the Liebstandarte's working in the camps.

And the Einzatgruppen were pretty nasty as well. [/B][/QUOTE]

Ugh...thanks for opening this can of worms, Zed. :rolleyes:

I believe it's [I]Allgemeine[/I] SS = common SS. They had camp guard duty, but I find it hard to believe they rotated seasoned frontline Waffen SS units into the camps to guard them. Even if priorities within the Third Reich were skewed to say the least, such a use of elite units is a pure waste.

And yeah, you should do some reading on the 'accomplishments' of the Red Army too....

I foresee a movement of this thread into AoW very soon... ;)



zed -> (8/11/2003 6:16:58 AM)

I was stationed for 3 years in Berlin that had been the barracks of Leibstandarte AH. I read everything about that unit, as there are many books on the subject. The soldiers were rotated to the death camps as a reward and a break from combat. I was disappointed to find out myself that that had been the case.
Was not Leibstandarte AH considered Waffen SS?



sol_invictus -> (8/11/2003 6:40:20 AM)

Well Zed, that's a new one on me. I have never heard of such a policy. It certainly wouldn't make sense, but then the Luftwaffe Field Divisions didn't either. The LAH was indeed considered Waffen SS. I am wondering if the accounts you read of them doing service in the camps was before they were formed into a panzer division. I guess they might have done such duty in the early camps when they were simly Hitler's bodyguard; but after they were a premier fighting unit, it would make no sense at all to send them to a concentration camp for their R and R. They would be kept close to the parent division for such moments of rest. Not doubting you, but there must be more to this story.



Adam Parker -> (8/11/2003 7:35:27 AM)

The thing about war gaming chaps is that we as gamers tend to strip away the politics of the moment and focus on what we respectfully refer to as the "glory" of war. There is nothing wrong with this imo. We want to relive the sweep of grand strategy and fill the operational boots of the great commanders in a bit of ego-centrical role playing. And in that, in reliving "history", there is a noble learning experience.

The older I get, most certainly do I reflect on the fact that glory is indeed tarnished. And we must remember that again, politics aside, all Fronts were hell holes from the get-go - and that's politics aside.

Still as much as I'll try to push the German Armies on in Barbarossa, part of me at least takes comfort in the fact, that the front line did not progress farther in reality, for all of the ideological carnage which in hindsight, we now know followed in the front's wake.

The history of the SS and the military arm - the Waffen SS is a complex one - still not fully understood to this day. When you research the texts as I have, you'll find a whole new world divided amongst the revisionist, the apologist, the biased and the ostensibly objective.

Much of the theory offered in the original post is valid. To gain some insight into this subject, two of the more objective accounts I'd refer gamers to are:

"Soldiers of Destruction" by Charles Syndor - a full warts and all history, of the SS Totenkopf (Death's Head) Division from its rise to fall.

"The Waffen SS Hitler's Elite Guard at War 1939-1945" - considered the classic and still valid account of the rise, fall and "activities" of the entire Waffen (Military) SS at the front and behind it.

Happy war gaming guys - there's no such thing as true glory in war, though honor and camraderie are virtues that co-exist side by side with the horror, regardless of army.

Remember we are playing games - military games at that. And there is nothing wrong at all in reflecting from time to time on the epoch of our endeavors.

This debate flares every so often and of course doesn't reflect on Matrix whatsoever, a company simply in the business of providing us with historical entertainment. I'll soon be busy enough learning a new rules system and looking at game play ;)



zed -> (8/11/2003 3:53:09 PM)

Matrix created a simulation of the battle which has nothing to do with glorifying the Germans. I am enjoying this game a lot. Part of the joy of Wargaming is knowing the OOB for both sides. Now I will enjoy even more being the Russians! :)



Spaceman -> (8/12/2003 11:58:08 PM)

Just BTW - The Waffen SS units did not need to be rotated to death camps to take part in atrocities - they killed plenty of civilians in the field, without even the Einsatzgrupps involvement.

Even regular Landser and Panzertruppen were involved in massacres

Trying to somehow distinguish different types of SS as different grades of bad guys is somewhat meaningless - they all bought the concept and took part gladly.

The same is true or the Soviet side, in terms of field massacres, particularly in the last months of the war where over 2 million German civilians went missing. The only difference is the lack of directed idealogical ethnic cleansing and death camps on the scale of the Nazis.

And lest we be self-congratulatory, there are atrocities committed by the Western Allies as well, albeit smaller in number...

I play either side, mostly for the intellectual challenge, but I cannot divorce myself from what is happening on the ground. I have yet to see a wargame that deals with anything other than the pure military action, although it really is something that would come in at Strategic level (e.g. Nazi action in Ukraine affecting supply (as it did) and willingness of Ukrainians to fight for the Nazis (which it would have done if Hitler had accepted Ukrainian soldiers fighting alongside German before it was too late))

As was said above though - I am very happy that Hitler was ultimately militarily inept and the Nazis did not go further - they could have done given other leadership, but given other eladership the whole sorry affair probably would not have happened and there would probably have been a central European war in the following decade involving the clash of ideologies that characterised the Cold War.

Space§man



riverbravo -> (8/13/2003 1:10:55 AM)

How could working in a camp be classified as R&R?

Death camp guards who would not participate in the killing were rotated to front line service.

No Deathcamp worker can say "they made me do it at gunpoint".

The Eastern Front has got to be some of the most brutal warfare to ever come to be.

Who would be the lesser of the two evils? Stalin or Hitler?



Snigbert -> (8/14/2003 6:53:01 AM)

[B]Well Zed, that's a new one on me. I have never heard of such a policy. It certainly wouldn't make sense, but then the Luftwaffe Field Divisions didn't either. The LAH was indeed considered Waffen SS. I am wondering if the accounts you read of them doing service in the camps was before they were formed into a panzer division. I guess they might have done such duty in the early camps when they were simly Hitler's bodyguard; but after they were a premier fighting unit, it would make no sense at all to send them to a concentration camp for their R and R. They would be kept close to the parent division for such moments of rest. Not doubting you, but there must be more to this story[/B]

This post and a couple of others above sound like the refusal to believe that the 'glorious elite professional soldiers' of the Waffen SS wouldn't dirty their hands by taking part in atrocities. I personally dont think the Waffen SS should be put up on any kind of pedestal, they committed just as many atrocities (if not more) than any other Axis troops.

[B]Trying to somehow distinguish different types of SS as different grades of bad guys is somewhat meaningless - they all bought the concept and took part gladly.[/B]

I agree, they were all spokes in the same wheel.



sol_invictus -> (8/14/2003 9:15:11 AM)

Snigbert, how did you construe my comments as putting the Waffen SS on a pedestal? I was simply inquiring and commenting on the original thrust of the post, which dealt with the Waffen SS serving in some capacity in the concentration camps. I certainly don't consider the Waffen SS as choir boys. I would classify them as very effective, yet often brutal fighters, who served an insanely homicidal regime.



snoopy84 -> (8/14/2003 3:06:51 PM)

:p



BrubakerII -> (8/14/2003 3:37:08 PM)

Wow some neat comments here from all sides. No army is without its skeletons and of course (some) SS units have perhaps more skeletons than others. It may be unfair to tarnish all members of any organisation with the deeds of others though - but that is life. Winners are grinners and losers can suit themselves.

When I play wargames I tend not to think about what the political objectives are of each unit/side. Is this being niaive? Perhaps. But I play the game for the fun of it - nought else.

Time is a great healer. How many people play a Napoleon's Army or a Christian Crusading Army or even a Confederate Army and actually put more than a single thought to what they are emulating politically? Why? I think because the battles are so historically distant their political ramifications are arbitrary only. So on that logic the (political) battles of ww2 are still quite sensitive to some people because they are directly or indirectly related to perpetrators/victims of such incidents. Old Father time will change this. The more vets (of all persuasions) pass away, the more the events will become simply history channel documentaries. I am not arguing this is good or bad but simply fact.

Lets continue to play our games but lets not try and justify why we like playing one side or another based on political reasoning. Leave that for other forums.

Brubaker



Charles2222 -> (8/14/2003 5:30:39 PM)

I recall on some documentary (forgive the vagueries here) said by I believe it was Himmler, that when the guards objected to having death camp duites that they were told that whether they remained doing that duty or not, that their military careers were over with anyway. That certainly doesn't sound like rotation.



Charles2222 -> (8/14/2003 6:34:42 PM)

Follow up:

I have the direct quote here, and what was said wasn't entirely as clear as my conclusion.

The following quote wasn't attributed to anyone, but it's seems to be a quote of someone in authority within the SS at the time. This comes from Waffen-SS Hitler's Elite Fighting Force:

quote:

Waffen-SS men could be assigned to such units (they were earlier talking about the Einsatzgruppen [sp?]) as a disciplinary measure. They are late or fall asleep on duty, they are court-martialed, but are told they can escape punishment by volunteering for the special units. When the young men realize that what they are being asked to do is mass-murder, they are told the orders are being given to them as a form of punishment (my comments - So much for escaping punishment). Either they can take that punishment or they can disobey and be shot. In any case their career is over and done with. By such methods decent young men are frequently turned into criminals.


Another portion of the video mentioned that though they had fervent dreams of military careers they weren't highly regarded. There's a few holes in what I was thinking earlier and the reality of the quote, one of which is to assume that the entire Einsatzgruppen was rejects from the SS and other branches. Perhaps that was so, but the quote doesn't categorically state that. Given the prevailing attitude of their not being highly regarded and the 'recruitment' of obviously some of their ranks, it's obvious that when those that gave the fighting units trouble are sent dow there, that over a period of time the fighting formations would have little regard for the same place where they had sent so many who weren't up to their orders in the first place.



BrubakerII -> (8/14/2003 7:26:33 PM)

Lets not forget also that especially in the early part of the eastern war before the Einzztzgruppen had perfected their miserable craft, that Wrmacht officers and wermacht soldiers were involved in the pre-KZ killing duties of the early 1940's.

The line is terribly blurred as to who was voluntary and who wasn't (in regards to warcrimes). It would seem only the Einsatzgruppen themselves were clear criminals by the true sense of premeditation. beyonf them is a million fold 'grey area' many people of whom are no doubt still alive today and will take their willingness to perpetrate these crimes to their graves. Beyond even them is a half million others who knew of these crimes but did nothing for whatever reason. Who is a criminal, who knows? For every 80 year old SS man alive today there is a half dozen thirty year old serbs or croats who are no less guilty.

Exactly who guarded the camps is simply a technical detail now. If you fought under the flag you must accept the 'rough' justice. This moreso for SS men than others. This is how their 'political' enemies were treated after all so I imagine there wouldn't be too many ex-nazis alive taday who would complain about their own treatment .

Brubaker



Snigbert -> (8/15/2003 2:38:19 AM)

[B]Snigbert, how did you construe my comments as putting the Waffen SS on a pedestal? I was simply inquiring and commenting on the original thrust of the post, which dealt with the Waffen SS serving in some capacity in the concentration camps. I certainly don't consider the Waffen SS as choir boys. I would classify them as very effective, yet often brutal fighters, who served an insanely homicidal regime.[/B]

Sorry, I over reacted a bit there...after rereading your post I see what you are saying. In the last year or so I have butted heads a couple of times with some Axis Fanboys who are SS worshippers who act like they are glorious gods of the battlefields who should be admired and honored rather than what they really were. I was quickly reading through the thread and thought you might be one of that ilk. My apologies.



sol_invictus -> (8/15/2003 2:54:31 AM)

No problem, I thought that might have been the case.



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