RE: Day 2 (Full Version)

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castor troy -> RE: Day 2 (11/10/2020 5:23:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Turns are a bit slow at the moment, lots going on on both sides. Day two went without any major hitches. KB is making her way back from Pearl - for once I decided not to strike on day two. With the carnage I did to the BBs on day one I feel confident I put them out of commission for a long time. So I will save planes and pilots and get KB where I need her to be.

SS I-2 caught an American xAK east of PH and sunk her.

Khota Bharu fell as did Ocean Island.

My escorts at Ocean Island deserve the glory for taking that island with minimal losses
Pre-Invasion action off Ocean Island (130,130)

Japanese Ships
DD Asanagi
CM Okinoshima
CM Tokiwa
PB Nagata Maru

Allied ground losses:
179 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 4 (2 destroyed, 2 disabled)

then my Naval Guard unit wiped the beaches with the rest when they waded ashore.

Not much happened on Day 2 - a few air battles as unescorted British bombers harassed my landings along the coast of Malaya - but my fighters were up to the task either driving them off of knocking them out of the sky.

I am working on my ship building plan and accelerating and halting ship builds. Figure in a few more turns I will have that completely sorted and can begin to modify my naval and merchant shipyards to save HI. There are lots of CVs, CVLs and CVEs to choose from in this mod, as well as BBs and Cruisers.

Xargun



If the mod has the same reduced bomb damage as Babes I wouldn't count on that much damage your attack did at PH as people are used to from vanilla



Xargun -> RE: Day 2 (11/10/2020 6:21:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

What were the ground loses for the search-float planes of those BBs you thought you may have sunk at PH. That will give you a better idea how many may have gone down?


According to the intel screen I sunk no BBs and no float planes were lost. But that could just be FOW.

Xargun



RangerJoe -> RE: Day 2 (11/10/2020 6:26:25 PM)

Probably no BBs sunk but many in the body and fender shop for awhile.



Xargun -> RE: Day 2 (11/11/2020 12:55:44 PM)

Day three

Once again not a lot of action as the mass exodus from Manila continues. I-123 caught a baby TK leaving Manila harbor and put 2 fish into her sending her to the bottom. A TF returning from Malaya had a run in with a dutch sub in the shallows and reports hitting the sub with two depth charges. If true thats good news.

Small air raids from British bombers trying to disrupt the landings at Khota Bharu, but my fighters drove them off. The exciting part was B-17s took to the skies today. They attacked CVL Ryujo's TF luckily missing her both times they attacked.

Japanese troops arrive at Kavieng, Aparri, Vigan and Nauru Island. Nauru falls to a shock attack and the rest simply landed - they are attacking this coming turn and should capture all three bases.

I have finished setting up my aircraft R&D factories so now the long process of sitting back and waiting.

Xargun



Bif1961 -> RE: Day 2 (11/12/2020 3:21:43 PM)

If you have the HR that no naval bombing by 4 engine bombers below 10,000 feet then it is not surprising early war American heavy bombers missed ships underway. There was an interesting story from Captain Hara of the Destroyer Amatsukaze. On 4 January, 1942 while resting anchor at Davao with a large portion of the Japanese fleet, including the carrier Ryujo, 4 B-17s made a high altitude bombing run. The heavy cruiser Myoko was struck atop a turret, which killed 20 sailors and put the turret out of action. They were caught totally by surprise and not a ship or plane responded to the attack until after the bombs had been dropped. So one hit while ships were anchored in a crowded harbor from high altitude B-17s early in the war making an unhindered bomb run resulted in only one hit. How much more difficult would it be fro high flying B-17s to hit ships at sea maneuvering at high speed? You were not lucky not to be hit, he would have been lucky to have hit you.



RangerJoe -> RE: Day 2 (11/12/2020 10:11:54 PM)

But the B-17 did make low level naval attacks, even at night.



Xargun -> RE: Day 2 (11/12/2020 10:40:15 PM)

Admiral DadMan and I have talked about it when I commented to him that B-17s showed their face and he asked if they attacked under 10k and I said no.. He said good, because he doesn't believe thats correct. I don't think its so much whether B-17s did or did not make such naval attacks, but in the way the game handles attacks by such aircraft. Maybe in a future game it will be handled better but its all we got so we make exceptions.

Scot and I also discussed other things we do to make sure we are fine with it... As expected, no problems on either side. Once we get up to speed this should be a good match.

Xargun



Xargun -> RE: Day 2 (11/14/2020 7:24:29 PM)

12/10/41

Man I forget how slow these turns can be... It seems like it takes forever for my invasion TFs to go anywhere. Japanese troops landed at Miri and Legaspi today and will hopefully capture both bases next turn. IJA troops arrived in Hong Kong and will spend a turn just bombarding to see whats all there before we begin the main attacks next turn when the rest of the troops arrive.

Vigan and Appari fell to the Japanese troops and reinforcements and aircraft are being move into theater. My night bombing of Clark Field with long range naval bombers went pretty good - bagged a few planes on the ground and damaged others.

I am taking a risk and paradropping the Yokosuka 3rd SNLF into Bataan. Unless he moved very quick there is little actual combat strength there and I'm hoping my SNLF can take the base with the shock attack. This will destroy the CD guns there, which will open up Manila harbor. Once I take it I have dreams of holding it, an should be able to airlift the troops back out. But with the CD guns out of the way that should free up Manila harbor a good month or more earlier than normal after the allied troops retreat to bataan. It will also allow me to bombard them when they retreat there.


The landing force at Miri was attacked by some Helldiver float planes - never seen these before. Some Buffalo CFs escorted them in and they managed to drop a 1000lb bomb on an APD. Damage is heavy but she should survive. I have ordered some zeros fitted with drop tanks to provide long range CAP over the fleet for next turn.


IJN SS I-155 attacked multiple allied merchies fleeing south of Palembang, but only hit the tanker Pinna with a single torpedo - due to sinking noises later in the turn I believe she sank. An allied AM hit a mine at Lubang while attempting to clear them - believe she sunk as well. Neither of the new sunk ships showed on the Sunk Ship screen, so definitely FoW is being a pain already.


Long range patrol planes from Kwajalein spotted a couple allied TFs heading SW about 15 hexes east of Miri. Intel on one TF shows 3 CAs and the other is blank. I am guessing its at least 1 US CV TF, but not sure what else would be with them, unless he has grouped his CV TFs together already. I have some long range bombers ready to attack so maybe next turn we will get a peek. I am also redeploying some nearby subs to attempt an intercept.


KB and her tankers are north of Midway and steaming for home. Once past Midway, I will break the oilers off for Japan to unload and prepare for oil hauling duties. I have not decided where to send KB yet. Do I send her west and into the SRA area to support operations against Singapore and Palambang? Or do I send her south to support South sea operations around Rabaul? Part of me wants to break her into 2 CarDivs and send 3 CVs to each, but am leery of that move. I tend to do things like that and then run into the allied Death Star and lose my CVs that way. Although I don't think there is an allied Deathstar yet.

Since all my CVLs and CVEs are in the Babel area currently, maybe I reinforce them with 1 or 2 CVs from KB and then send the rest to support the attacks on Singers and Palambang? What do you guys think?

Xargun



Xargun -> Air Losses (11/14/2020 7:27:12 PM)

I would post a pic of the air losses screen but don't remember how :(

Xargun



Bif1961 -> RE: Air Losses (11/15/2020 5:51:57 PM)

It is not a matter of if they bombed below 10K historically, occasionally they did. My understanding is that the game modeling for that is over generous to their hit probability. Therefore, many HRs include the agreement not to have 4 engine bombers conduct naval bombing under 10K.



RangerJoe -> RE: Air Losses (11/15/2020 5:54:30 PM)

When they did bomb low, they usually sent one bomb at a time so that is one reason why the chances of a hit were greater.



witpqs -> RE: Air Losses (11/15/2020 6:26:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

It is not a matter of if they bombed below 10K historically, occasionally they did. My understanding is that the game modeling for that is over generous to their hit probability. Therefore, many HRs include the agreement not to have 4 engine bombers conduct naval bombing under 10K.

I (and my opponent too) disagree about that, so we don't HR it. What we have seen is that attacking warships lower the 4EB suffer from flak, while attacking 'soft targets' they do not and the soft targets suffer accordingly. Seems like a good depiction to me.

As always, YMMV.



Xargun -> RE: Air Losses (11/15/2020 7:39:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

It is not a matter of if they bombed below 10K historically, occasionally they did. My understanding is that the game modeling for that is over generous to their hit probability. Therefore, many HRs include the agreement not to have 4 engine bombers conduct naval bombing under 10K.

I (and my opponent too) disagree about that, so we don't HR it. What we have seen is that attacking warships lower the 4EB suffer from flak, while attacking 'soft targets' they do not and the soft targets suffer accordingly. Seems like a good depiction to me.

As always, YMMV.


I have never noticed this behavior as a 99% japanese player only, but have seen people talk about it on the forums. I didn't bring it up but Scot did and he seems to feel heavily against nav bombing below 10k so who am I to argue :)

Xargun



Bif1961 -> RE: Air Losses (11/16/2020 3:59:24 PM)

there is an exception made for naval 4EB bombers as they were specifically trained in low level bombing of target at sea but in general B-24s and B-17 squadrons were not trained to drop individual bombs on naval targets at low level. I have a very interesting book, "Above and Angry Sea," United States Navy PB4Y and PB4Y-2 squadrons in operations Pacific between Oct 44 to Aug 45. It is a very interesting read and it is loaded with pictures and stats.



witpqs -> RE: Air Losses (11/16/2020 4:14:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

there is an exception made for naval 4EB bombers as they were specifically trained in low level bombing of target at sea but in general B-24s and B-17 squadrons were not trained to drop individual bombs on naval targets at low level. I have a very interesting book, "Above and Angry Sea," United States Navy PB4Y and PB4Y-2 squadrons in operations Pacific between Oct 44 to Aug 45. It is a very interesting read and it is loaded with pictures and stats.

The game has separate skill for (high) land bombing, low land bombing, (high) naval bombing, and low naval bombing.



BBfanboy -> RE: Air Losses (11/16/2020 4:26:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

there is an exception made for naval 4EB bombers as they were specifically trained in low level bombing of target at sea but in general B-24s and B-17 squadrons were not trained to drop individual bombs on naval targets at low level. I have a very interesting book, "Above and Angry Sea," United States Navy PB4Y and PB4Y-2 squadrons in operations Pacific between Oct 44 to Aug 45. It is a very interesting read and it is loaded with pictures and stats.

At least one IJN DD was sunk in "The Slot" by a B-17 during the Guadalcanal campaign. The DD captain was furious because "they always miss!". I don't know what altitude it was flying at the time.

As witpqs hints, skill is a big factor. I have found that early on my B-17s get no hits at all on ships at sea, but as they gain experience and train/develop the NavB skill, they start getting hits on the easier targets. I let them go as low as 8K feet to be above light AA range.



witpqs -> RE: Air Losses (11/16/2020 5:23:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

there is an exception made for naval 4EB bombers as they were specifically trained in low level bombing of target at sea but in general B-24s and B-17 squadrons were not trained to drop individual bombs on naval targets at low level. I have a very interesting book, "Above and Angry Sea," United States Navy PB4Y and PB4Y-2 squadrons in operations Pacific between Oct 44 to Aug 45. It is a very interesting read and it is loaded with pictures and stats.

At least one IJN DD was sunk in "The Slot" by a B-17 during the Guadalcanal campaign. The DD captain was furious because "they always miss!". I don't know what altitude it was flying at the time.

They were pretty high at the time, but I don't recall the actual altitude. The real thing in that case is that the DD was stopped alongside or near a disabled ship. The captain's decision motivated by complacency brought on by the fact that high-flying B-17's, with crews untrained in naval bombing, "always missed!". [:D]

quote:


As witpqs hints, skill is a big factor. I have found that early on my B-17s get no hits at all on ships at sea, but as they gain experience and train/develop the NavB skill, they start getting hits on the easier targets. I let them go as low as 8K feet to be above light AA range.




RangerJoe -> RE: Air Losses (11/16/2020 6:25:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

there is an exception made for naval 4EB bombers as they were specifically trained in low level bombing of target at sea but in general B-24s and B-17 squadrons were not trained to drop individual bombs on naval targets at low level. I have a very interesting book, "Above and Angry Sea," United States Navy PB4Y and PB4Y-2 squadrons in operations Pacific between Oct 44 to Aug 45. It is a very interesting read and it is loaded with pictures and stats.

At least one IJN DD was sunk in "The Slot" by a B-17 during the Guadalcanal campaign. The DD captain was furious because "they always miss!". I don't know what altitude it was flying at the time.

They were pretty high at the time, but I don't recall the actual altitude. The real thing in that case is that the DD was stopped alongside or near a disabled ship. The captain's decision motivated by complacency brought on by the fact that high-flying B-17's, with crews untrained in naval bombing, "always missed!". [:D]

quote:


As witpqs hints, skill is a big factor. I have found that early on my B-17s get no hits at all on ships at sea, but as they gain experience and train/develop the NavB skill, they start getting hits on the easier targets. I let them go as low as 8K feet to be above light AA range.




Probably the Mutsuki :

quote:

. . . 12 July 1942, Mutsuki was reassigned to the IJN 8th Fleet and participated in the bombardment of Henderson Field on 24 August 1942.[7] During the Battle of the Eastern Solomons on 25 August 1942, Mutsuki was sunk in an attack by USAAF B-17 Flying Fortress bombers while assisting the damaged transport Kinryu Maru, 40 miles (64 km) northeast of Santa Isabel island. . . . Mutsuki took a direct bomb hit in her engineering section, killing 41 crewmen and injuring 11 more. Yayoi took on the survivors, which included her captain, Lt. Cdr. Kenji Hatano.[


https://infogalactic.com/info/Japanese_destroyer_Mutsuki



Bif1961 -> RE: Air Losses (11/17/2020 4:22:53 PM)

Even a blind pig finds a truffle now and again.



RangerJoe -> RE: Air Losses (11/17/2020 5:18:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

Even a blind pig finds a truffle now and again.


Pigs can smell them, so do dogs. Which is why they trained dogs to find them since the dogs won't eat the truffles while the pigs will eat the truffles.



Xargun -> 12-11-41 (11/17/2020 9:43:33 PM)

Another day and some more advancement of the Japanese Empire. Today the glorious forces of the Japanese Empire stormed the shores of Jesselton, Sorong, Aitape, Manus and Guam. Our forces also captured Legaspi, Miri and Kavieng. The oil fields at Miri are hit pretty good with only 113 oil and refineries left working. The decision is whether or not to repair any of them or not. It has been a long time since played and I do not remember the community opinion on this.

The IJN lost an xAKL and AMc to allied air attacks, but we damaged the Dutch sub O20 with a couple depth charges and sunk an allied xAKL in a brutal surface engagement near Luzon.

My night air raids on several allied airfields were productive. Very few losses on my side and some damaged and destroyed allied planes. Not sure if the night air strikes had anything to do with it or not, but allied air attacks were very weak this turn.

My paradrop on Bataan failed. Combat replay showed the bulk of my transports being shot down (which was FoW luckily - although a lot were damaged), but I didn't drop enough men to do the job and the shock attack failed. I am leaving the survivors there and have moved more transports to the base - unfortunately despite having the range, they will not drop troops - only supplies into Bataan. So I've giving my Tinas a turn to repair and then will do a followup air drop with more men and supplies provided Scot doesnt wipe out my paratroopers there... Although I do not think his units have much assault strength there with only an AA unit and a USN Base Force. So if he doesn't have anything moving quickly there I still may be able to take the base.

Xargun



RangerJoe -> RE: 12-11-41 (11/18/2020 12:42:17 AM)

When you take a base with industrial infrastructure within range of enemy bombers, move in with AAA units as well as air defense. Use float Petes for a night CAP.

Repair the oil but never the refineries nor the resources. Seldom repair the Light Industry.



PaxMondo -> RE: 12-11-41 (11/18/2020 1:39:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
When you take a base with industrial infrastructure within range of enemy bombers, move in with AAA units as well as air defense. Use float Petes for a night CAP.

Repair the oil but never the refineries nor the resources. Seldom repair the Light Industry.

+1

Rarely repair LI .. can't recall when I last did ...



PaxMondo -> RE: 12-11-41 (11/18/2020 1:49:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun
The oil fields at Miri are hit pretty good with only 113 oil and refineries left working.

Sorry to hear ... hopefully better luck a Palembang ...

As to repair, generally yes if you plan on playing through '46. All oil will eventually convert into fuel and supply and you want as much of both as you can.

Caveat: you do not want to starve your '42 offensive nor your factory build plans in doing so ... frequently this is a tightrope until about May or June ... I don't think there is a wrong or right, but you do need to factor in your decision as you move forward in your strategy.



Xargun -> RE: 12-11-41 (11/18/2020 4:15:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun
The oil fields at Miri are hit pretty good with only 113 oil and refineries left working.

Sorry to hear ... hopefully better luck a Palembang ...

As to repair, generally yes if you plan on playing through '46. All oil will eventually convert into fuel and supply and you want as much of both as you can.

Caveat: you do not want to starve your '42 offensive nor your factory build plans in doing so ... frequently this is a tightrope until about May or June ... I don't think there is a wrong or right, but you do need to factor in your decision as you move forward in your strategy.


I plan on playing as long as I can. Once I secure the northern coast (Miri and Brunei) I will bring in some 20k supply and let it chew through that repairing oil. Then I will gauge my overall supply situation and then bring in another 20k or so. I usually use the baby 1250-ton tankers to haul oil from Miri to CRB and then use larger tankers from there.

Xargun



Xargun -> 12-12-41 (11/18/2020 4:29:29 PM)

A slow turn. Japanese forces land no where new, but the second wave is landing in Malaya and Luzon. Guam, Sorong, Manus, Jesselton, Aitape and Calayan fell to the Japanese troops this turn netting me almost 100 VPs. No attacks at Bataan leads me to believe the allied troops there have little to no attack power. I am airlifting some supplies in this turn and sweeping it with zeros incase he tries to provide air cover. Next turn - if enough transports are repaired - I will airdrop more men into Bataan along with supplies and bomb the enemy troops.

KB should be rendezvousing with the oilers this turn and refueling - then the oilers will head to Japan and the KB will head off to her targets.

I got some better intel on the US TFs heading into the Gilbert Islands - destination possibly the Solomons and Oz in general. The two TFs there compose of 1 CV, 6 CAs, 1 CB and a BC. Not sure on the cruiser components, but at least 1 CV is there - if not more. Another US CV was detected east of PH - as carrier aircraft harassed some IJN subs in the area.

I am beginning to shift troops around in china to cover garrisons and free up troops for attacking. China is a huge mess - got divisions sitting in bases that need Battalion sized garrison forces and so forth. Going to take a while to clear all this up. While this is going on, troops from Korea and Manchukuo are gathering at the chinese border awaiting orders to be committed to the chinese front (need to pay PPs to free them up). Artillery, armor and Base Forces will be the priority for a bit.

I am shifting some nighttime air strikes to Singapore airfield in an attempt to slow down the building of forts here. The british will have plenty of time to build forts before I get there and I don't want to end up fighting against level 6 forts.

Xargun



RangerJoe -> RE: 12-11-41 (11/18/2020 4:40:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
When you take a base with industrial infrastructure within range of enemy bombers, move in with AAA units as well as air defense. Use float Petes for a night CAP.

Repair the oil but never the refineries nor the resources. Seldom repair the Light Industry.

+1

Rarely repair LI .. can't recall when I last did ...


Expand and repair the LI at Fusan (Pusan) to increase the demand for resources there so those can be loaded and shipped to Japan. If you unload some oil there, you can then set up some CS convoys to ship the oil to Japan. The oil will slowly work its way there and this is a good use for the small tankers.



RangerJoe -> RE: 12-11-41 (11/18/2020 4:45:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun
The oil fields at Miri are hit pretty good with only 113 oil and refineries left working.

Sorry to hear ... hopefully better luck a Palembang ...

As to repair, generally yes if you plan on playing through '46. All oil will eventually convert into fuel and supply and you want as much of both as you can.

Caveat: you do not want to starve your '42 offensive nor your factory build plans in doing so ... frequently this is a tightrope until about May or June ... I don't think there is a wrong or right, but you do need to factor in your decision as you move forward in your strategy.


I plan on playing as long as I can. Once I secure the northern coast (Miri and Brunei) I will bring in some 20k supply and let it chew through that repairing oil. Then I will gauge my overall supply situation and then bring in another 20k or so. I usually use the baby 1250-ton tankers to haul oil from Miri to CRB and then use larger tankers from there.

Xargun



Use the smaller medium sized tankers there, not the babies. Also, send the oil/fuel to Singapore (when you capture it) using coastal waters so you can prosecute subs easier. It can also be easier to stay under air ASW coverage as well from float planes. Load the oil at Miri and the fuel at Brunei, the fuel will work its way to Brunei which actually has a larger port to begin with. The babies will be needed in the Eastern DEI as well as sending small amounts of fuel to small bases.



PaxMondo -> RE: 12-11-41 (11/18/2020 6:55:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun
The oil fields at Miri are hit pretty good with only 113 oil and refineries left working.

Sorry to hear ... hopefully better luck a Palembang ...

As to repair, generally yes if you plan on playing through '46. All oil will eventually convert into fuel and supply and you want as much of both as you can.

Caveat: you do not want to starve your '42 offensive nor your factory build plans in doing so ... frequently this is a tightrope until about May or June ... I don't think there is a wrong or right, but you do need to factor in your decision as you move forward in your strategy.


I plan on playing as long as I can. Once I secure the northern coast (Miri and Brunei) I will bring in some 20k supply and let it chew through that repairing oil. Then I will gauge my overall supply situation and then bring in another 20k or so. I usually use the baby 1250-ton tankers to haul oil from Miri to CRB and then use larger tankers from there.

Xargun



Use the smaller medium sized tankers there, not the babies. Also, send the oil/fuel to Singapore (when you capture it) using coastal waters so you can prosecute subs easier. It can also be easier to stay under air ASW coverage as well from float planes. Load the oil at Miri and the fuel at Brunei, the fuel will work its way to Brunei which actually has a larger port to begin with. The babies will be needed in the Eastern DEI as well as sending small amounts of fuel to small bases.

Or you can build Brunei up and ship everything from there ... faster loading and bigger TF's.

Since I will generally have the miracle road up and running, I will have a sub trap setup between CRB (or Saigon) and Miri. 3x24 Jakes at both ends on NavSearch, coupled with 6x3SC ASW TF's patrolling the route. I will also sometimes do finishing training of DB's in these sub trap zones. My goal: kill subs and transport oil/fuel.



Xargun -> 12-17-41 (11/23/2020 2:57:11 PM)

In four days Scot and I have done 6 turns :D I think I have figured out how to post pics so I will try to post some as well. Will start with an aircraft losses summary screen.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/G9ekEj5.png[/img]

As you can see the air war hasn't been too bad - I have been mauling the P-40s with sweeps and CAP. My zeros are doing the bulk of the sweeps, but the Nates are holding their own against P-40s which is really surprising me. They may not kill many, but they are fighting them off and more importantly not dying.

All of my Nell and Betty losses have been from ground-based flak as I have been using them to suppress airfields and recently to support the attacks on Hong Kong. At Hong Kong my troops have wiped out the forts and are taking a couple days off to recoup some fatigue and disruption before the final push to take the base.

Xargun



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